[Former Elemental Guide]: New guide linked

90 Blood Elf Paladin
13515
04/29/2012 10:05 AMPosted by Epikfaile
Why for sure on Normal Ledger. Most people have been arguing in favor of mastery > haste. Ledger has none. It has spirit for hit rating, but it seems like reforging can pretty much negate that advantage.


Without the legendary haste and mastery should be balanced, although you'll end up with more mastery than haste in BiS gear. The two stats are fairly close to each other after T13 4 piece, and not only that, but intellect is king, and ledger will have more so it wins.

04/29/2012 11:42 AMPosted by Izen
also just wondering should I also remove Unleash elements from my rotation to help this proc if so?


You were told by refrigerator that UE shouldn't even be used. Mastery and haste are pretty equal after T13 4 piece so you should be balancing them.
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90 Pandaren Hunter
12035
Is it just me or are the links to the specs broken? I copy-paste them and it just brings me to the default wowhead talent page, asking me to choose a class. :P
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90 Troll Shaman
12580
Wowhead is loading very slowly for me so it may be that the site is having problems. I'll look into it, but can't do much else right now.

Edit: Spec link works fine for me.
Edited by Liax on 5/26/2012 6:33 AM PDT
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90 Dwarf Shaman
3990
Why will rockbiter be gone in MoP?
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90 Troll Shaman
12580
Because it fails to fall into any spec's arsenal for practical use. It is an almost worthless imbue that has a good moment once a year, and that's it. I'm pretty sure I can count the number of times I've cast rockbiter during this expansion on both hands.
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90 Draenei Shaman
9005
only use i can see out of it is taunting. when you have rockbiter on u can unleash elements which taunts a mob ur targeting. its not bad does add some utility on fights like ultraxion for trash or heroic beth. can be used situationally cuz the taunt does last 6 sec and then switches back to who ever had threat before the taunt.
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90 Troll Shaman
12580
Rockbiter unleash isn't a taunt. It is a fixate. When the fixate ends you lose the focus of the enemy. An ability that actually taunts will put you on the top of the aggro list.

Sort of nitpicky, but clarification. You mentioned it at the end (which I didn't read all the way through from the start) so your grasp of it was right, but it's still not something you should say is a taunt.

THE MORE YOU KNOW.
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90 Draenei Shaman
0
I really don't understand how Mastery is greater than haste with the Legendary staff, I tried to reforge mostly into Mastery after reading this thread and several others, but I found no increase in dps, but a dramatic drop instead. I get around 50-60k spike in dps with more haste, and with mastery it's a little above 40k. Though I'm still trying to get more mastery gear to try it out again, but in all. Haste is greater than mastery for me at the moment, even with T13 4p.
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90 Troll Shaman
12580
06/12/2012 07:51 AMPosted by Velsham
I really don't understand how Mastery is greater than haste with the Legendary staff, I tried to reforge mostly into Mastery after reading this thread and several others, but I found no increase in dps, but a dramatic drop instead. I get around 50-60k spike in dps with more haste, and with mastery it's a little above 40k. Though I'm still trying to get more mastery gear to try it out again, but in all. Haste is greater than mastery for me at the moment, even with T13 4p.


Well if you actually don't understand the concept here it is again, as outlined in the guide.

3) Legendary staff: The staff scales better with more mastery than it does with more haste. 1% haste is 128.05716 haste rating. 1% haste rating is 1% more spells. 128.05716 is .714 mastery, which is 1.428% Ele overload, which is 1.428% more LBs/LvBs. This relationship causes DTR to slightly increase the value of mastery relative to haste.


You also shouldn't see leaps and bounds of better damage with mastery. It's not going to be mind-boggling apparent, but when you compare multiple logs of haste vs mastery builds you should be able to notice that, on average, the mastery build won out.

06/12/2012 07:51 AMPosted by Velsham
I get around 50-60k spike in dps with more haste, and with mastery it's a little above 40k.


That doesn't make sense. Haste is not a spikey stat. It is a consistent stat. While you do get more opportunities for mastery procs with haste stacking haste should not cause you to fluctuate enough to have a 20k DPS spike in difference.

At this point I basically have to say I don't trust the amount of time you've done into comparing the stats. IE: The question I'd have is did you go spend 5 minutes at the dummy with a mastery build, then switch to haste and see better results with haste and go with that. Or did you actually do a simcraft stat weight, go through multiple tests to compare the stats, and reach a conclusion. The other question I have is if you're even performing the rotation properly.

The other thing to point out on haste vs mastery is that you simply have A TON of haste right now. Even without GoA you have 22% haste, tack on the 5% you have 27%. This is a lot as it is, and was pretty much seen IIRC in T12 gear which was fine, but the difference here is that your BiS trinket is a haste proccing one, and you T13 bonus gives even more haste. Simply put with a couple stacks of T13 haste, and your trinket procced you're going to be running into GCD issues, not to mention the procs lose a ton of value if it happens during hero/bloodlust. That alone makes mastery and haste for you at least needing to be balanced, and math (when you have the legendary) does point to mastery being stronger than haste anyways.

Simply put I'm wagering you haven't put enough time into comparison of the two stats yet. Briefly looking at your logs I'm not finding any thing huge in your rotation, or you're playing incorrectly (Although I don't seem to see volcanic power on your buffs! QQ). The fact that you're claiming to see a flux of 20k spikes with haste over mastery leads me to that conclusion.
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90 Draenei Shaman
16690
06/12/2012 07:51 AMPosted by Velsham
I really don't understand how Mastery is greater than haste with the Legendary staff, I tried to reforge mostly into Mastery after reading this thread and several others, but I found no increase in dps, but a dramatic drop instead. I get around 50-60k spike in dps with more haste, and with mastery it's a little above 40k. Though I'm still trying to get more mastery gear to try it out again, but in all. Haste is greater than mastery for me at the moment, even with T13 4p.


Simple. The legendary procs off of initial cast spells can proc mastery, and mastery procs can proc legendary procs. It simply scales significantly better with mastery than it does with haste.

What type of tests are you doing? At this point it seems like the tests are flawed if you're getting such varied results.
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90 Troll Shaman
12580
GISTWIKI I TOTALLY GOT THIS.

Jk, I don't really want to do work.
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90 Goblin Shaman
11340
Liax, I have some questions which I would like to ask: (bear in mind that it is not possible for me to get the legendary staff.

1. I read some of your posts stating that GoLvB is a clear cut winner over GoLB, i tested it but for some reason GoLB did more of my dps and glyphing GoLvB over it means dps loss for me. Do this indicate that there is something wrong with what I'm doing? Possibly my rotation?

2. Do you have any clear idea on what the DS standard-bis weapon for us (non legendary wielders) is? I'm guessing either one of these 3: Heroic Vagaries of Time, Heroic Rathrak and Heroic Lightning Rod.

3. If my group didnt down DS bosses fast enough, is it almost worth it to glyph GoFET? Can it potentially replace GoUL?

Lastly I wanna ask the help of people here (if you have the time) to evaluate on my stats/gear a little. I also wanna thank the Liax for all the work he's done! I really don't know where else to look apart from here. Also, I apologize if these questions have been addressed beforehand, I just can't seem to remember much of the info that I read nowadays : /. Thank you so much.
Edited by Korcha on 6/18/2012 3:38 AM PDT
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90 Troll Shaman
12580
06/18/2012 03:36 AMPosted by Korcha
1. I read some of your posts stating that GoLvB is a clear cut winner over GoLB, i tested it but for some reason GoLB did more of my dps and glyphing GoLvB over it means dps loss for me. Do this indicate that there is something wrong with what I'm doing? Possibly my rotation?


Assuming you sat at a DPS dummy and just pew pew'd your heart out on separate tests (at least 5 minutes per test) then yes this would probably mean you're not lava bursting often enough. My guess would be that you're not taking advantage of lava surge procs enough, and I would ask what addons you use to help with your rotation. As I always like to say it's not really that the elemental rotation is actually hard...but there IS a lot to watch, and if you try to do it solo you're going to miss something (FlS uptime...searing totem uptime....fulmination stacks...lava surge procs...and so forth).

06/18/2012 03:36 AMPosted by Korcha
2. Do you have any clear idea on what the DS standard-bis weapon for us (non legendary wielders) is? I'm guessing either one of these 3: Heroic Vagaries of Time, Heroic Rathrak and Heroic Lightning Rod.


The correct answer is to sim it, and to be honest I'm really not 100% sure on whether heroic rath beats heroic lightning rod on single target, but obviously rath (normal or heroic) will win out on any fight with multiple targets. I don't actually even know if normal rath beats out heroic vagaries single target or not. Once again that's kind of a sim it thing. I've had the legendary since Nov of last year so I've never had to run tests or anything like that for myself.

06/18/2012 03:36 AMPosted by Korcha
3. If my group didnt down DS bosses fast enough, is it almost worth it to glyph GoFET? Can it potentially replace GoUL?


GoUL is a staple glyph for 5/8 of the heroic bosses in DS, and 4/8 for normal. Heroic-wise you don't need UL on Ultrax, Spine, or Madness. Normal-wise it's that list + Warlord since it's almost a completely stationary fight. Outside of those fights do not drop GoUL.

To answer your question, yes GoFE is a great DPS boost to have if the fight lasts 7-8 minutes, and you can even use a TF build like my secondary spec is since it increases the duration of FE. Since everything for my guild has been on farm since Feb we don't have boss fights last more than 5 minutes besides madness, and spine so I can never glyph it outside of madness (and you should always glyph FE on madness). For replacing a glyph for FE the choice is lava burst unless the fight doesn't require movement, and you can drop UL.

For my DS raids I run a 31/3/7 spec on every encounter now (Hagara is the only one you wouldn't UNLESS you sit inside the bubble, heal through the damage, and nuke the glaciers), and use the FlS, LvB, and UL glyphs. I swap out UL for LB on Ultrax, reglyph it for Warmaster, and unglyph it for LB on spine, and then drop LB for FE on madness.

06/18/2012 03:36 AMPosted by Korcha
Lastly I wanna ask the help of people here (if you have the time) to evaluate on my stats/gear a little.


Contrary to popular belief armory checks only provide us with good insight if you are playing completely wrong (IE: I stack spirit gems, stack crit, and glyph flametongue! ALL WHILE SPECCING RESTO!!!).

In your case you're completely gemmed, enchanted, specced, and glyphed properly, you're just over the hit cap, and your haste/mastery is very well balanced. If you are lacking in DPS it's going to be a rotational thing that we can't see through your armory. I checked worldoflogs.com and I don't see your guild listed so I can't really help there unless you have something you can show us.
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90 Goblin Shaman
11340
Allright, thanks so much for all the advises Liax! I'll even replace my resto build to go for the GoFE + TF build and switch specs at different bosses of DS. I'll try that on my raid (we gonna attempt 5/8 HM) this week.

Fyi, I use only powerauras to keep note of LvB cd and Lightning Shield charges. I'll also take note on how much dps i did on DS bosses in the future for better reference.

Thanks a bunch Liax!
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90 Troll Shaman
12580
12/05/2011 06:28 PMPosted by Liax
Version:4.23; icon:spell_shaman_lavasurge; buffname:Lava surge; bufftype:13; owntex:true; duration:0.5


In case you didn't see it.

This will basically tell you whenever you have a lava surge proc. If you just have a lava burst CD the aura may not come up right away because of the GCD.
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85 Orc Shaman
1710
Whats your opinion on Visage? I was led to believe it was our BiS if we couldnt get the staff. Seems I may be wrong lol
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90 Troll Shaman
12580
The reason lightning rod wins out is because it has more haste than mastery. The visage has more hit, but hit is pretty meaningless in this tier.

The two are very close together though so it's not a big difference.
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90 Draenei Shaman
14795
why are imperfect specimens better than the tier?
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90 Troll Shaman
12580
Because we have a plenty of spirit, and the imperfect specimens are haste/mastery.
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http://us.battle.net/wow/en/character/nordrassil/Type%c3%9f/simple
been healing random hot as ele for funs. still come out top on dps -.-
you should give it a try ele community.
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