Fl nerfed again?

55 Worgen Death Knight
90
11/30/2011 01:54 PMPosted by Zarhym
We did remove Magma Geyser from phase 4 of the Heroic Ragnaros encounter. The reasoning behind this change wasn't so much to make the fight easier, but rather because the mechanic just wasn't really playing out the way we wanted it to.


Please do tell how you intended for this mechanic to actually work?
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90 Blood Elf Paladin
TG
12490
12/01/2011 06:55 AMPosted by Worenhard
We did remove Magma Geyser from phase 4 of the Heroic Ragnaros encounter. The reasoning behind this change wasn't so much to make the fight easier, but rather because the mechanic just wasn't really playing out the way we wanted it to.


Please do tell how you intended for this mechanic to actually work?


11/30/2011 04:56 PMPosted by Zarhym
The intent of the mechanic was indeed to require the raid to take turns cycling through the Breadths of Frost to reset their Superheated stacks, and to destroy the Breadth if too many people tried to camp in it at once.
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90 Undead Priest
12700
I find this fascinating. This is an awesome example of why I enjoy raiding so much. It's all about problem solving. Some clever raiders came up with an effective strategy that totally took the Dev's by surprise. Now that's just cool.
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85 Night Elf Warrior
10285
They were hotfixing Sinestra while Paragon was progressing on it.

Apparently doing the same thing at Ragnaros is impossible.
Edited by Charsi on 12/1/2011 7:33 AM PST
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- Diablo III
90 Human Rogue
8185
So instead of implementing this right away you decided to keep it in until 4.3 when the content was not only irrelevant but most of the damage had already been done to guilds who suffered the loss of guild members from burnout/frustration and gulds simply just falling apart after 100's of attempts.
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100 Human Rogue
13410
11/30/2011 04:56 PMPosted by Zarhym


Do you mind indulging the intent of that mechanic versus the actual outcome of it?
________________________________________________
Healing Forum MVP

The intent of the mechanic was indeed to require the raid to take turns cycling through the Breadths of Frost to reset their Superheated stacks, and to destroy the Breadth if too many people tried to camp in it at once. As it turned out, players discovered that a very, very precise triangle formation allowed three independent clumps to coexist inside the Breadth without triggering Geyser. All of the initial Heroic Ragnaros kills used this tactic and it became the standard way of doing the fight.

We could have increased the detection radius that triggered Geyser, but in general we try to avoid enacting changes that make an encounter more difficult once that fight has already been defeated. Doing so creates a frustrating experience for players who have to relearn something they believed they had mastered. The adjustments to the health and damage of Ragnaros and his minions in September primarily affected the difficulty of phases 1-3 of the encounter; at that time, we also decided that Magma Geyser should be removed from phase 4, but the change was not one that could be made in a straightforward way via hotfix, so it did not take effect until the 4.3 patch.

So basically, yes, it’s a nerf, but it’s because we weren’t happy with the mechanic and the only two solutions for fixing that were to either make the fight harder or to make it easier. And, as stated above, we try to avoid making fights harder once they’ve gone live.

Despite some of the insinuations in this thread, the change isn’t remotely going to let a guild that hasn’t mastered the encounter just walk in and defeat it.


Thank you for the reply. I really enjoy it when you guys can elaborate on your design process.
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85 Tauren Priest
4655
Please don't fix the Ryolith bug...I feel like the guy is so lonely out there,by himself,on that lone rock.Now he won't be so sad!
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12/01/2011 06:55 AMPosted by Worenhard
We did remove Magma Geyser from phase 4 of the Heroic Ragnaros encounter. The reasoning behind this change wasn't so much to make the fight easier, but rather because the mechanic just wasn't really playing out the way we wanted it to.


Please do tell how you intended for this mechanic to actually work?


If you bothered to read the thread you would have the answer to that question already.
Edited by Battlepopé on 12/1/2011 9:15 AM PST
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100 Human Mage
16650
12/01/2011 07:56 AMPosted by Aeriwen
Thank you for the reply. I really enjoy it when you guys can elaborate on your design process.


I agree, this was a cool, unexpected tidbit to run across while just randomly browsing the forums.
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85 Tauren Druid
0
Problems I have with this whole thing:
    - The true "final phase" of Heroic Ragnaros is now the 2nd easiest, only beating out P1. Even the transitions are harder.
    - Just because it wasn't your intended way of execution means it's not good? The triangle strategy was a unique occurence. It added very interesting dynamics to the phase. TBH, this was better than a simple move-in-and-out mechanic.
    - How did you guys not see this coming? Why was nobody watching Paragon and Method. Paragon obviously developed this strategy, and everyone has been mimicing it since. When are the Raid Devs going to learn that Paragon can do more for your Heroic Raid Content than any one person on your staff. They've got the best strategy, and the best roster. Watch them. I couldn't believe it when I found out there were no raid feedback threads for 4.3 on the EU forums. This could have been easily headed off at the pass by simply monitoring Paragon's progression.
    - You are completely wrong about the way the nerfs affected difficulty. The health nerf made 2-meteor easy, and it made the choice for when to change from a complete coverage Dreadflame strategy to a raid-protection strategy simple. P4 used to have a DPS requirement on Rag. The output nerf most affected P4, it has, by far, the most challenging healing requirements. Only the transitions can offer debate in that respect.
    - There were plenty of options for changing this without making the fight easier or harder. You could change any one of several abilities to do this. The most obvious would be superheated. If you want to make the patches stupid and simple like you have, buff superheated. If you want to make them like you intended in the first place, nerf superheated. Or, you could have left it like it was, in a functional and unique state, with specific and non-repeating challenges.
    - Where are the Raid Devs? Why is it that the only posts Daelo makes are the schedule times for testing, and they're usually total balls.
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86 Orc Warlock
14065
blizzard fail once.... letting noob get a free heroic rag kill.

it was already a terrible idea to have the mount have a chance to drop on normal difficulty now this. WOW GG
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90 Orc Rogue
16325
Who really cares if 'noobs' get Ragnaros kills now? They would be getting them once MoP was released or the 5.0 bridge patch was released anyway, it really doesn't effect our time at all.

Sometimes there is precedent to fix encounters while they are relevant and sometimes they let them pass. I can only assume Heroic Ragnaros was left as is for so long because by the time people started working on P4 they realized that the encounter they had in mind would have been impossible under what they originally designed. Obviously you don't want to change the way people approach the encounter, especially on one that takes you 10 minutes to get to that particular phase.

I won't know unless clarified but I am sure there are examples of bosses in this game that were intended to be done one way and done differently. Most of these bosses are bosses that are tested internally which typically don't get handled in unique ways that players typically come up with.

Anyways it would be nice if some sketchy mechanics were explained from time to time on these forums more often. I typically find them fascinating myself and doing it in hindsight (i.e the patch after they are relevant) can lead to some great discussions.
Edited by Tojara on 12/1/2011 10:41 AM PST
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3 Troll Druid
0
Other than Ragnaros stuff, it looks like the also broke Engorged Broodlings on H-Beth. We went back there to try to get the achieve for one of our guys who was still missing a H-Beth kill but it was no go, my Broodling blockers were reporting that they were seeing like twice as many Broodlings than pre-4.3. I was skeptical at first, but we just couldn't kill this and we had killed the boss before.

So post-raid I comb back through the logs and this is what I got (searching off of volatile bursts by Engorged Broodlings):

Pre 4.3 H- Beth Kill - 1 burst every 5.56 sec, 48 total bursts over 4:27 of reported bursts
Post 4.3 Wipe 1 - 1 burst every 2.65 sec, 52 total bursts over 2:18
Post 4.3 Wipe 2 - 1 burst every 4.31 sec, 45 total bursts over 3:14
Post 4.3 Wipe 3 - 1 burst every 5.21 sec, 37 total bursts over 3:13

Something is definitely not right here, even accounting for the fact that burst per x sec might be diff based on kiting, there shouldn't be this big of difference between the raw number of bursts between attempts. In Wipe 1 we had more Broodlings in 1/3 of a fight then over our entire last pre 4.3 H-Beth kill, and then in Wipe 3 it looked like the we had pre 4.3 levels of Broodlings (to bad we didn't snag a kill there)

I hope this can be fixed so that the Broodling levels are returned to consistent pre 4.3 levels.
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MVP - Technical Support
100 Human Warrior
19610
11/30/2011 06:51 PMPosted by Zarhym
Thanks for the clarification!

Thanks for asking directly for clarification rather than prepping the tar and feathers for my blatant lies and attempts to deceive! No matter how hard I try, people always catch onto my wicked, wicked games of truth distortion!

You should be an MVP. :p


Heh I knew the exact reason for the change soon as i saw it. I never expected that mechanic to be "perfect your triangles" When i first read the dungeon journal i pictured using it to clear stacks then getting back out and maybe the tank and boss staying in it so they aren't as spikey and boss is always near it.
________________________________________________
Mac Tech Support MVP
Addon Author
http://www.curseforge.com/profiles/mysticalos/
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90 Night Elf Druid
17755
Other than Ragnaros stuff, it looks like the also broke Engorged Broodlings on H-Beth. We went back there to try to get the achieve for one of our guys who was still missing a H-Beth kill but it was no go, my Broodling blockers were reporting that they were seeing like twice as many Broodlings than pre-4.3. I was skeptical at first, but we just couldn't kill this and we had killed the boss before.

So post-raid I comb back through the logs and this is what I got (searching off of volatile bursts by Engorged Broodlings):

Pre 4.3 H- Beth Kill - 1 burst every 5.56 sec, 48 total bursts over 4:27 of reported bursts
Post 4.3 Wipe 1 - 1 burst every 2.65 sec, 52 total bursts over 2:18
Post 4.3 Wipe 2 - 1 burst every 4.31 sec, 45 total bursts over 3:14
Post 4.3 Wipe 3 - 1 burst every 5.21 sec, 37 total bursts over 3:13

Something is definitely not right here, even accounting for the fact that burst per x sec might be diff based on kiting, there shouldn't be this big of difference between the raw number of bursts between attempts. In Wipe 1 we had more Broodlings in 1/3 of a fight then over our entire last pre 4.3 H-Beth kill, and then in Wipe 3 it looked like the we had pre 4.3 levels of Broodlings (to bad we didn't snag a kill there)

I hope this can be fixed so that the Broodling levels are returned to consistent pre 4.3 levels.


If you're searching for Volatile Burst hits, each explosion counts as a hit, so an explosion that hit 4 people would count as 4 hits.

There are 4 Broodlings per Spiderling Wave (so 4 per wave on 10-man and 12 (3x4) on 25-man). If you're seeing more than 4 spawn from that particular cave, then something changed. Counting hits from Volatile Burst won't tell you anything.
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90 Night Elf Druid
14955
I understand the concept behind the "goal" of the guyser mechanic, but why would you make the Ice Patch bigger than the Guyser range in the first place?

To defend you...that mistake actually made H-Rag doable using that triangle formation. I couldn't possibly imagine pushing the healers that hard in p4 by having a rotation of groups...not to mention stacks building up on the tanks at the same time has Rag mauls them.

Well Kudos to making the hardest fight ever still...was truly a great event. I hope H-Deathwing can compete with it.
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3 Troll Druid
0
Thanks clarification on the logs, I went back through the logs and parsed for Volatile Bursts that killed Engorged Broodlings only, and not Volatile Burst hits that tagged players (thus counting total Broodlings via their deaths). The numbers of Broodlings post-4.3 are in line than with our last Pre-4.3 kill (Broodlings dying approx every 7.42 seconds on our last kill vs. every 5.31, 7.19, 7.42 on our wipes). Apparently my guys were just having problems with handling Broodlings.
Edited by Deland on 12/1/2011 2:36 PM PST
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- Hearthstone
97 Tauren Paladin
12485
11/30/2011 04:56 PMPosted by Zarhym
Despite some of the insinuations in this thread, the change isn’t remotely going to let a guild that hasn’t mastered the encounter just walk in and defeat it.


This.
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11/30/2011 07:01 PMPosted by Elliora
Poor Raggy, ph4 is so silly now.
as long as your dreadflame fighter isnt bad lol
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