Retribution (6.0.3) - Updated 12/18/14

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90 Blood Elf Paladin
14570
some quick questions.

1. why haste over mastery?

2. is the difference big?
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90 Draenei Paladin
9900
some quick questions.

1. why haste over mastery?

2. is the difference big?

1. The short, easy answer is that "because math says so." It just works for us better than Mastery does now. Haste increase our attack speed which means more swings, more AoW procs, more HoPo, etc. Haste decreases the CD on almost every one of our main abilities thanks to Sanctity of Battle which means more HoPo. More HoPo means more TV, more TV means more DPS.

2. The difference is big. Certainly big enough to re-gem/enchant/forge your gear from Mastery to Haste.
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100 Human Paladin
10255
Thanks for updating! Looking forward to MoP updates at 90!
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90 Human Priest
12900

12/14/2011 10:53 PMPosted by Johandrac
question, whats the current value of haste? It does reduce the CD of DS/CS, how does that compare to crit?

Item Lvl 359 372 378 391 397 410
Strength 2.273 | 2.499 | 2.672 | 2.714 | 2.864 | 3.011
W-DPS 8.619 | 7.480 | 8.785 | 8.831 | 8.512 | 8.746
Hit rate* 0.985 | 1.097 | 1.259 | 1.441 | 1.523 | 1.764
Expertise* 0.985 | 1.097 | 1.259 | 1.441 | 1.523 | 1.764
Mastery 1.012 | 1.078 | 1.292 | 1.329 | 1.544 | 1.771
Crit rate 0.959 | 1.115 | 1.225 | 1.553 | 1.502 | 1.756
Haste 0.801 | 0.875 | 1.102 | 1.048 | 1.374 | 1.445

What Haste is worth compared to Crit for you is ultimately up to what your gear is like. You'd have to sim your toon (I use SimCraft myself) to know for sure, but Haste is generally going to lag behind Crit in terms of DPS gain. The difference is minimal, but there. Basically, I wouldn't ever recommend going Haste over Crit in the interest of maxing your DPS; not right now, anyway.
This table indicates that haste is not better than mastery in our current gear and level. Please post more analysis on this, post a link with additional discussion, or correct your guide. Other pallies I've spoken to are still finding mastery to be better than haste.
Edited by Mussorsky on 9/7/2012 10:11 AM PDT
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90 Draenei Paladin
9900
That table is out-of-date and does not exist in this iteration of the guide for exactly that reason. Please read through the actual guide before reading through posts made during previous patches.

7.1 Stat Priority

After Hit and Expertise caps: Strength > Haste > Mastery > Crit
As of patch 5.0, Haste is more valuable to us than Mastery or Crit. Strength is still king.

The above snippet took the place of the old stat weights section (and the table) when I updated for 5.0. The table will be reintroduced with exact weights when it becomes more relevant to do so at level 90.
Edited by Svayne on 9/7/2012 10:54 AM PDT
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90 Blood Elf Paladin
9495
09/07/2012 10:50 AMPosted by Svayne
As of patch 5.0, Haste is more valuable to us than Mastery or Crit. Strength is still king.


This is the one problem I have. I keep hearing this everywhere but find no evidence to support it. Granted, most of my time looking is while I'm at work, but if you're able to point to a source showing mathematically why haste > mastery, I'd be very interested to see it.
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90 Draenei Paladin
9900
http://elitistjerks.com/f76/t129896-ret_5_0_pre_mop_panda_ring_all_players/

Give Exemplar's spreadsheet a whirl. Read through the vast discussion. Download SimCraft and check it out for yourself through a few sims (and scale your own stats). If that's not enough, personal experiences should cut it. You'll do more DPS by gearing for Haste assuming you follow proper rotation, etc.

Edit: You're going to have to actually read through the discussion in any linked sources, particularly EJ. In-depth math isn't typically posted in the OP; it's discussed and refined throughout the discussion and through spreadsheets and sims. I can't personally just throw a bunch of math at you and say "here."
Edited by Svayne on 9/8/2012 7:06 AM PDT
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85 Blood Elf Paladin
0
While much ado has been done in this thread about How To Ret in 5.0 one important question remains unanswered.

HOW THE HECK TO GET THIS GUIDE STICKIED?

We have two solution:

1. Click the "Request Sticky" button on the top right of the page. DO IT NOA! Svayne's guide has proven to be upto date and gives only the best info. EJ on the other hand can be slow with the updates occasionally. Furthermore, unlike someone like myself we know he/she will be here for a long time!

2. Send a mail to wowreportedpost@blizzard.com begging them to sticky this guide. Similarly send them a mail to remove the old guide.

For more info see here:

http://us.battle.net/wow/en/forum/topic/2353268142

and here:

http://us.battle.net/wow/en/forum/topic/900930866#3
Edited by Celyndrashad on 9/9/2012 1:22 PM PDT
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90 Draenei Paladin
9900
Thank you Celyn. :) Another tip is to "Like" the OP (and any other of the posts in the body of the guide) when trying to get it stickied. Moderators favor threads with a lot of "Likes."

In other news: running a few sims and doing a bit of EJ lurking in order to fill a few gaps in the guide, such as when to cast and refresh Inq. I'll update as I'm able.

Edit: Minor updates to sections 4.1 and 5.4 concerning Inquisition.
Edited by Svayne on 9/8/2012 8:29 AM PDT
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90 Human Priest
12900
That table is out-of-date and does not exist in this iteration of the guide for exactly that reason. Please read through the actual guide before reading through posts made during previous patches.

7.1 Stat Priority

After Hit and Expertise caps: Strength > Haste > Mastery > Crit
As of patch 5.0, Haste is more valuable to us than Mastery or Crit. Strength is still king.

The above snippet took the place of the old stat weights section (and the table) when I updated for 5.0. The table will be reintroduced with exact weights when it becomes more relevant to do so at level 90.
The table was embedded in an earlier post of yours. My reading of the EJ site (particularly dates 8/21/2012-8/26/2012) is that haste>crit>mastery but only if Sanctity of Battle includes TV and only at level 90. If Blizz changes SoB such that TV isn't included, then crit edges it out. Also, your guide is definitely for level 90. I believe it is best to keep mastery>crit>haste at 85. Thanks for the info, it made me dig deeper.
Edited by Mussorsky on 9/8/2012 8:57 AM PDT
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90 Draenei Paladin
9900
The post that the table was embedded in is from almost a year ago. Additionally, I don't think you're reading through the EJ thread closely enough.

At L85 relative values:
Str > Haste > Mastery > Crit

Source: http://elitistjerks.com/f76/t129896-ret_5_0_pre_mop_panda_ring_all_players/#Stats
Edited by Svayne on 9/8/2012 9:44 AM PDT
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85 Gnome Priest
3675
The table was embedded in an earlier post of yours. My reading of the EJ site (particularly dates 8/21/2012-8/26/2012) is that haste>crit>mastery but only if Sanctity of Battle includes TV and only at level 90. If Blizz changes SoB such that TV isn't included, then crit edges it out. Also, your guide is definitely for level 90. I believe it is best to keep mastery>crit>haste at 85. Thanks for the info, it made me dig deeper.


Templar's Verdict (TV) is not included in Sanctity of Battle (SoB) because it would be meaninglessly redundant to add it. TV requires 3 Holy Power (HP) and has no cooldown. If you generate HP faster, then TV becomes available faster. Because SoB includes reductions in casting time for all of our HP-generating abilities, SoB affects TV already.
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90 Troll Shaman
11360
Even though I no longer play my ret for raids, figured I'd give some input. Nob already beat me to the TV thing, so I don't have to go over that again.

Worth noting to the Rets here that Sanctity of Battle only goes off of melee haste now, not spell haste. And that only applies true haste, not attack speed buffs such as Swiftblade's Cunning, Unleashed Rage, or the third one I can't remember off the top of my head.

As for Tier 5 for talents, theoretically, Sanctified Wrath pulls ahead of Divine Purpose on fights that end shortly after the second or third use of Avenging Wrath. That being said quite literally, four or more uses of Avenging Wrath and Divine Purpose will pull ahead. I've misplaced my notebook with my math on that, though. Should I find it, I'll add an additional post or update this one with the math.
Edited by Sevilón on 9/9/2012 2:50 AM PDT
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90 Draenei Paladin
9900
My brain is a little too fried from classes to try and math out tier 5 talents myself, so thank you Sev. I haven't personally given SW a whirl yet because I spend most of my raid nights doing comparisons between HA and DP. And like you said, SW pulls ahead (theoretically) after the second or third use of AW. With a 3-minute cooldown, most fights with the 35% debuff aren't going to last that long anyway.

When MoP hits and encounters last significantly longer, it may be a different story. The T14 4-piece will probably play a large part in our T5 talent choice as well.
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100 Draenei Paladin
10895
Templar's Verdict (TV) is not included in Sanctity of Battle (SoB) because it would be meaninglessly redundant to add it. TV requires 3 Holy Power (HP) and has no cooldown. If you generate HP faster, then TV becomes available faster. Because SoB includes reductions in casting time for all of our HP-generating abilities, SoB affects TV already.


It's not exactly redundant. The faster your TV GCD becomes, the sooner you'll be able to put your HP generators on cooldown after dumping on TV.
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86 Undead Priest
8190
Excellent work and great information!! Appreciate the time you put into this!!

/liked
/request sticky

Keep up the good work!!
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85 Blood Elf Paladin
0
>.>

Okay want to post something other than bump....so.....ummm..uhhh....OH I KNOW.

This look like the right Clcret rotation?

inq tv5 how exo cs j tv3 tvdp
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90 Human Warlock
10510
My CLC actually placed DP TV in front of everything else. Right now I'm going over sims and what-not to decide if that's actually right. If anyone can say for sure yay or nay, let me know.

Edit: Right now I just assume it's correct because TV is our hardest hitting ability and DP procs off of it, so one could say that you should just spam DP TV if it keeps procing. On the other hand, perhaps it's best to put your HoPo generators on CD before burning your procs (assuming <5 HoPo stored).

Edit2: SimC keeps spitting out slightly higher numbers for placing DP TV in front of everything else in my Paladin's gear and in BiS T13. Testing supports, assuming correct. Guide updated.
Edited by Svenya on 9/11/2012 9:43 PM PDT
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