LFR loot rules are totally broken

90 Human Death Knight
9650
Is this where I go to complain? Take 2 hours with lfr to kill deathwing, tank sword drops and I get out rolled by 5 dps.

Awwwwwesome


Souldrinker is a Frost DK's BiS weapon.
55 Orc Warrior
13775
So when exactly do you expect we will see this so called intelligence?

It depends on the situation. Players are describing a few different unfavorable scenarios with the current implementation. Each of those scenarios might call for a very different approach. Each approach could require a vastly different amount of development/programming time.

There are some loot scenarios that can potentially be improved via hotfixes, if the idea is to manually set up different flagging on specific items. Larger changes to the way the loot system functions though, with regard to what information it's able to recall while determining eligibility and bonus roles, will have to be done via patches.


All we need is for raid finder loot to be flagged as such that it specifies what classes can roll on the items similar to the tier tokens. for example.

Gurthalak, Voice of the Deeps
Raid Finder
Warrior, Paladin, Deathknight
Binds when picked up
Two-Hand Sword
2396 - 3595 Damage Speed 3.60
(832.1 damage per second)
+455 Strength
+683 Stamina
Durability 120 / 120
Requires Level 85
Item Level 390
Equip: Your melee attacks have a chance to cause you to summon a Tentacle of the Old Ones to fight by your side for 10 sec.
Sell Price: 44 34 24


If a roller does not meet this specification they simply cannot roll need on the item. Deathknight tanks and dps specs would be on equal footing due to the tanks using a 2hander but they knew what hey were getting into when they rolled the class. tank and healing pallies and tank warriors will not get the +100 similarly that tank DK's would not get +100 on any 1handers with dodge parry and only pally healing would get +100 on spell weapons. While this does not address the Spirit issue it is a solution for agility classes rolling on strength gear and vice versa. Ofcorse this would only apply to raid finder loot distribution methods.
Edited by Bonesaw on 12/8/2011 9:57 PM PST
90 Gnome Mage
8385
12/08/2011 08:35 PMPosted by Ðestructíon

It depends on the situation. Players are describing a few different unfavorable scenarios with the current implementation. Each of those scenarios might call for a very different approach. Each approach could require a vastly different amount of development/programming time.

There are some loot scenarios that can potentially be improved via hotfixes, if the idea is to manually set up different flagging on specific items. Larger changes to the way the loot system functions though, with regard to what information it's able to recall while determining eligibility and bonus roles, will have to be done via patches.


Zahrym come on bud it isn't that difficult from a programming perspective. When the item is made it is put into a database. When an item is created it is designed for certain class / spec combo's. Why not just add another 2 database fields into the existing Database and have the designers put in the potential class / spec use in that field. Going backwards is no where near doable due to the sheer size of the Oracle DB you run. But going forward it should be a very easy task for the item design team to add to the existing database.

If your class / spec is listed in the db then you get to roll. There is little dev time. The hardest part of that is to add them to the DB and create the fields in an already existing DB which is not all that hard either.

It can be hot fixed pretty easily if done right. The work behind the hot fix will be no small task though with regards to adding items to the Database. I suggest starting from Cata on up. Slap an intern on it and GG.


It sounds like you should be applying for a job with Blizzard if you think its so easy to get done within the 30+gb of other code that is has to work along side.
90 Tauren Druid
16550
Not for sure that it was addressed but tonight in lfr I was in a group where a Blood DK qued as a dps ( group had two other tanks I was one of them) and he rolled on a dodge trinket from spine of deathwing and he still received a Role bonus.
2 Tauren Paladin
0
Z I think you're having some kind of internal communication breakdown. There is clearly already a system in place that limits loot based on some kind of classification, because INT users cannot roll need on STR or AGI accessories even though they can technically equip them, and warriors and DK's cannot roll need on INT items (accessories or plate healer gear).

There is already some kind of item categorization or flags that exist (they may not be specifically "by class" or "by spec" but they exist) that disallow/allow some classes to roll on gear that they cannot optimally use. It is either the case that the flags just have to be more strict on AGI/STR accessories, or it is the case that an additional delineation needs to be made between AGI/STR items in addition to the existing INT/non-INT delineation. Optimally, one would also be made for spirit/non-spirit items to prevent mages/locks from getting spirit gear.

I personally believe that the flags already exist, but that they were originally set very generously 2-3 years ago (or whenever) when they were initially implemented because they were primarily for level-up content and "non-end game" content, and at a time when AP was the primary DPS stat on accessories for both STR and AGI users (with AP actually being generally superior to AGI for most AGI users, and AGI contributing a non-trivial amount of crit for STR users). The game changed so that primary stats became the most important stat, AP disappeared, STR became much worse for AGI users and AGI much worse for STR users, but the loot system did not evolve with the rest of the game and it has finally come to a head in the Raid Finder where you are giving out (nearly) end-game loot in a circumstance in which there is literally zero accountability (far less than even random trade channel pugs limited to people on your server).

Anyway, while it may be technically accurate that there is not a specific "class/spec" system to separate loot, it's pretty clear that there is SOME system, and that it just needs to be tweaked/updated.
55 Gnome Death Knight
90


Zahrym come on bud it isn't that difficult from a programming perspective. When the item is made it is put into a database. When an item is created it is designed for certain class / spec combo's. Why not just add another 2 database fields into the existing Database and have the designers put in the potential class / spec use in that field. Going backwards is no where near doable due to the sheer size of the Oracle DB you run. But going forward it should be a very easy task for the item design team to add to the existing database.

If your class / spec is listed in the db then you get to roll. There is little dev time. The hardest part of that is to add them to the DB and create the fields in an already existing DB which is not all that hard either.

It can be hot fixed pretty easily if done right. The work behind the hot fix will be no small task though with regards to adding items to the Database. I suggest starting from Cata on up. Slap an intern on it and GG.


It sounds like you should be applying for a job with Blizzard if you think its so easy to get done within the 30+gb of other code that is has to work along side.


Blizzard is a multimillion dollar corporation that should get things right before releasing them, they've had 7 or so years to work this one out.
85 Troll Mage
12470
I worked out different loot categories in Notepad once. The only hard case is 2h str weapons that a DK might use for tanking. I went with if it's mastery + hit/expertise it's a tank weapon, if it has none of those stats it's a dps weapon, if it has some combination it's both tank and dps. That's arbitrary, but it was really the only weird case; the others were easy.

I guess trinkets and other proc items are a pain and need to be individually flagged; oh well.
100 Orc Warrior
13225
This has probably already been said, but I fail to see why RF items can't just be flagged for the classes who are intended to be using them similar to how tokens are. It doesn't sound like that complicated of an issue to mostly resolve.

Sure it won't fix elemental shamans rolling on agility axes, but it prevents Fury warriors from needing on the Deathwing Bow.


This sounds feasible.

The game does already have gear flagged like this - consider Titan-Forged Breastplate of Triumph or Titan-Forged Chain Armor of Triumph or Titan-Forged Leather Tunic of Triumph .

It is admittedly a brute-force solution that makes each piece of gear a little "uglier" by having an extra line in every tooltip.

It does have a drawback - players that already won gear might find themselves unable to use it if the gear becomes classified as not for them. So the developers may have reservations about going this path.

But it sounds like a workable way to ensure that items are distributed to the desired classes.

Edited by Inushi on 12/8/2011 10:14 PM PST
2 Tauren Paladin
0
I worked out different loot categories in Notepad once. The only hard case is 2h str weapons that a DK might use for tanking. I went with if it's mastery + hit/expertise it's a tank weapon, if it has none of those stats it's a dps weapon, if it has some combination it's both tank and dps. That's arbitrary, but it was really the only weird case; the others were easy.

I guess trinkets and other proc items are a pain and need to be individually flagged; oh well.

Technically all 2H STR weapons are DK tank weapons. There should be no delineation.
90 Gnome Mage
8385


Blizzard is a multimillion dollar corporation that should get things right before releasing them, they've had 7 or so years to work this one out.


Things aren't wrong at the moment. Everyone earned the loot, anyone who can theoretically use the loot is able to roll on it.

What Blizzard is doing in the future is more fool-proofing and grief-proofing but ultimately its the community who are responsible for this problem, not Blizzard.
85 Night Elf Hunter
8595
A rogue won the Bow off of Deathwing. I would bet warriors could win it too. As you can clearly see, I do not have the bow off of Deathwing. I rolled a 191.
100 Night Elf Hunter
11875
Geez Louise. Where were all you people when folks would complain about the LFD loot distribution and how mages would "ninja" spirit rings, tanks dps gear, and hunters needing on everything they could?

100 Night Elf Hunter
11875
12/08/2011 08:35 PMPosted by Quard

You pointed out the reason in the rest of your post. Technically, it's the same issue as the example I covered with hunters rolling on a two-handed Strength weapons. Spirit is a DPS stat for some classes which, therefore, means items with Spirit are flagged for healing and DPS. This is exactly what I mean by the system needing to be more intelligent.


But CLOTH spirit isn't used for DPS. That should be flagged only for healers, unless it already is.


My spirit priest would like to talk with you.
2 Tauren Paladin
0


Blizzard is a multimillion dollar corporation that should get things right before releasing them, they've had 7 or so years to work this one out.


Things aren't wrong at the moment. Everyone earned the loot, anyone who can theoretically use the loot is able to roll on it.

What Blizzard is doing in the future is more fool-proofing and grief-proofing but ultimately its the community who are responsible for this problem, not Blizzard.

Forming a community requires accountability. There is almost zero accountability in LFR. If LFR were server-restricted or something where you could at least use social pressure you might have a case, but they are not.
85 Draenei Paladin
2225
12/08/2011 09:55 PMPosted by Masarah
It sounds like you should be applying for a job with Blizzard if you think its so easy to get done within the 30+gb of other code that is has to work along side.
THIS

lol.

I swear, I can't even change a word in the middle of a sentence without having to go back and change other words so the entire sentence flows perfectly. But doing the same with code in a 30 gig block of info is supposed to be easy?
16 Undead Warrior
90
12/08/2011 10:01 PMPosted by Flottley
Blizzard is a multimillion dollar corporation that should get things right before releasing them


I cannot think of one company who has ever accomplished this.

Even Apple and Microsoft have not mastered this and they have many more years experience
100 Night Elf Druid
19000
12/08/2011 10:22 PMPosted by Ryaskybird
Geez Louise. Where were all you people when folks would complain about the LFD loot distribution and how mages would "ninja" spirit rings, tanks dps gear, and hunters needing on everything they could?


They were busy trolling and saying stupid things like "Working as intended" then they became the victims of douchebags who do it and finally opened their ignorant eyes.

Honestly I'm not surprised I knew LFR loot rule had to be perfect or near perfect or there would be a large amount of griefing / complaining. I guess people realize since you only get one shot at loot a week that it actually matters that the system block out ninjas.
Edited by Nightsbane on 12/8/2011 10:46 PM PST
100 Blood Elf Warlock
16585
One thing I don't see mentioned here, that people seem to be missing: Worst case scenario is that you have a 1 in 25 chance of getting your item.

Yeah, it's annoying that I sometimes see an item and say "ooh, more int, *need*!", then realize it's a spirit item for healers, then have to be embarrassed and hand it over. Even more annoying are the people who don't hand it over. But the point most of us harped on with wanting the raid finder was being able to play the raid and experience the content. Gear is just an added bonus, and the fact is you *always* have a shot at getting your gear. I played 10 to 20 VoA runs back in wrath, and got. . . *drumroll*. . . one item, ever.

The system has broken parts, I agree. But nothing has changed from what you've already been doing in this respect. If you're a hardcore raider and somehow find people to raid with on a regular basis, there's really no reason to complain, because you can just get gear from the "real" raid. If you're like me and have difficulty getting into more than a few raids per patch (I don't think I ever saw the inside of a Cata raid until after 4.2), LFR gives you the opportunity to raid. And don't forget you're getting 500 vp for queuing up twice, getting that achieve to show the leetists that you've at least seen a version of the fights, and honestly getting some real experience with the encounters that (if you utilize it) makes you at least somewhat prepared for the normal-mode raid.

12/08/2011 10:29 PMPosted by Milsa
within the 30+gb of other code
For the record, there's nowhere near 30 GB of code in WoW. Most of that stuff on your drive is artwork, models, maps, etc. Not to say there isn't a ton of (presumably) highly-optimized code. Just that it's likely more on the order of 50-100 MB. Maybe a bit more if you include the server-side code.
85 Orc Hunter
0
Lost the Agi Polearm to a Prot warrior... GG :'(
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