LFR loot rules are totally broken

90 Worgen Druid
9295
I don't want hunters to be able to roll on what is clearly a Bear tanking polearm. Gimme my lewtz! Kiril, Fury of Beasts
Edit: Why does that tooltip not have armor on it? o.O
Edited by Furlax on 12/9/2011 2:11 AM PST
100 Human Paladin
21370
12/08/2011 05:00 PMPosted by Zarhym
Okie dokie. Here's your +100." (We should really find ways for the game to say "okie dokie" in your chat log.


The game engine is Pinkie Pie?

No wonder it's so erratic...
100 Gnome Warlock
3515
But CLOTH spirit isn't used for DPS. That should be flagged only for healers, unless it already is.


Shadow priests say hi.
85 Draenei Hunter
7710
I don't want hunters to be able to roll on what is clearly a Bear tanking polearm. Gimme my lewtz! Kiril, Fury of BeastsEdit: Why does that tooltip not have armor on it? o.O


You obvoiusly didn't see the "and ranged attacks" on the Equip. If it only said "melee attacks" I would completely agree with you. However, it is the only melee weapon hunters can equip that drops off Deathwing. So go back to your QQing about Fandral's Flamescythe, bro.
Edited by Taygete on 12/9/2011 2:48 AM PST
100 Blood Elf Paladin
10985

We only ask that you keep in mind patch 4.3 is our first implementation of Raid Finder and the "Need Plus" system. The design is quite complicated and requires further iteration to make loot distribution more intelligent.


When you take into account all of the things that you intend to add to the raid finder, and compare them to the relatively short number of features currently operational; I'm forced to ask why you bothered to release it at all.
12/08/2011 06:38 PMPosted by Zarhym
Spirit is a DPS stat for some classes


Actually it's not. The only benefits that DPS roles gain from spirit is converting spirit > hit (which should actually be in the healing trees for obvious reasons). Those classes are purposefully designed to have mana regen mechanics that completely replace the need to have spirit on any of their gear, and as such, SHOULD NEVER be encouraged to stack spirit at all, let alone be allowed to roll on spirit gear against a healer.

I can see rolling greed on it because it's an upgrade (except for the spirit) over other stats found on another piece, but saying that 'dps classes can use spirit and therefore are allowed equal opportunity on spirit gear' is a pretty big oversight in the design of spirit for it's intended purpose (mana regen).

Mages and warlocks don't have a use for spirit anymore, so you're essentially saying that it's okay for them to roll on spirit gear against healers because it's okay for balance druids, elemental shamans, and shadow priests to roll on spirit gear due to their (misplaced) talents that convert spirit to hit.

I don't want to insult anyone at Blizzard, but it's obvious that DPS classes don't need spirit and shouldn't have any kind of support for being able to use it. It's obvious that balance druids, elemental shamans, and shadow priests should not have any reason to roll on spirit gear.

72 Human Warlock
5985
12/09/2011 02:19 AMPosted by Backstabeth
3) And this is the most important part - WHY do you need the gear? Obviously, if you are in LFR you have the required iLevel to get in. If you are killing bosses, that means you are already powerful enough (especially if you are in the top for DPS). Since the LFR tool is supposed to be used by folks that cannot raid, there is no reason you NEED the loot. If you cannot raid because you "don't have the time to commit to a guild/raid schedule" then there is no real NEED for you to upgrade your gear. This has never ceased to amaze me when reading posts by whiners about how they "lost" gear"



Okay, then tell the people who did full FL runs to not roll need in LFR because there's other players who need the gear more than they do; why? Because those players never did FL and its actually a big improvement over their 5-man / PVP gear.

For example, last night, an elemental shaman in full FL gear won literally every token and almost every weapon / trinket / mail gear over everyone in the raid. Me truthfully, I just wanted to get the fights down to open up next parts and know I not going to geared well from LFR but no one person should be able to get 3 shoulder, 2 chest , 3 head and 2 leg tokens in one run like that. Especially when there's other players more deserving of the tokens than that person . It didn't help that player was from a 10-man guild that was using LFR to raid and they themselves could had run normal version, even better none of their members was the raid leader. Yes, other players in that run were calling her out for winning those items like that for it shouldn't have happen like that in the 1st place.

So yes, they do need to fix the looting system especially when tokens are involved, no one should be able to win than more one type of token in one run. I think it should compare players ILvl or best in slot to see who more deserving of the loot and act according.
90 Blood Elf Paladin
8955
i hope they pour a lot of resources into this fast. lfr loot system really needs help right now.
40 Draenei Priest
0
If I can ask this:

We are selecting our roles, right?
Can't the system be tweaked to cue the Need + bonus based on the role you've selected?
85 Blood Elf Paladin
9920
One problem I've noticed with this +100 to anyone needing in a particular role (regardless of class and specialization) is the ability of groups to queue for LFR with the intent to 'hoard' items for their group. For example, Eye of Unmaking dropped in a FOD I did earlier today. An entire 10-man group rolled need on it, with a dps DK being the only one who would potentially use it. The enhancement shaman from their group won, and moments later traded it to the DK.

This is just one example, but I'm sure it happens more frequently than is reported. It seems almost exploitative for players to behave in such a way. As a blue post in this very thread states:

Hey folks,

So, just to be clear, we're certainly aware that the loot system in Raid Finder needs to be smarter, as there's currently not a way for the system to determine loot eligibility based on talent specialization or class. To use the OP's example, if a Strength weapon drops and a hunter rolls on it, the system says "Yep, a DPS player is rolling on it. Okie dokie. Here's your +100." (We should really find ways for the game to say "okie dokie" in your chat log.)

This obviously needs to change and we're in the middle of discussing potential short-term solutions, as a more long-term solution will require programming new tech into the system which will account for class/spec.

We only ask that you keep in mind patch 4.3 is our first implementation of Raid Finder and the "Need Plus" system. The design is quite complicated and requires further iteration to make loot distribution more intelligent.


The players rolling on these items with the sole intent of passing to a particular person are granting an unfair advantage to one player over, say, someone who queued solo for the instance with the hopes of getting that particular piece of loot. This seems like a clear and obvious workaround of the random raid finder's loot system, as I'm sure Blizzard did not intend for this to happen.

That being said, if the group were, say, all present as strength DPS characters, the workaround wouldn't be as obvious, and would probably be more acceptable than a group of casters and agility users rolling on a strength dps trinket.
100 Night Elf Druid
14950
12/08/2011 06:38 PMPosted by Zarhym
You pointed out the reason in the rest of your post. Technically, it's the same issue as the example I covered with hunters rolling on a two-handed Strength weapons. Spirit is a DPS stat for some classes which, therefore, means items with Spirit are flagged for healing and DPS. This is exactly what I mean by the system needing to be more intelligent.


When I did the LFR last Tuesday as balance DPS I was not given a bonus on spirit items (specifically necks and rings). As I play all three classes that use spirit as hit, I'm curious to know if this is intentional.

TANGENT/SIDE NOTE: I have had run-ins with many healers who get extremely upset when I roll need on items with spirit. For healers the argument is that they need it for mana regeneration, and I can use both spirit and hit items, so I shouldn't be rolling. Currently many of the items with spirit have better itemization for me than those with hit (my BiS back, neck, off-hand, etc., all have spirit). This is more of a design issue that came up while trying to condense loot drops to suit more roles.

I'm honestly more concerned about the future implementation of this system in random dungeon groups since I raid with my guild, so LFR raid drops (being lower quality) are not a huge concern for me. Not being restricted on my alts in LFR would be nice, though.


Another point of curiosity for me is why spec/class was unable to be implemented in the rolls - feasts and flasks of battle, for example, give the primary stat for the spec I'm in (intellect as balance/elemental, agility for feral/enhancement). Spirit is a DPS stat for shadow priests, but provides nothing for warlocks or mages, yet from what I've read in the forums, all three get a bonus on spirit cloth gear. Druids are able to roll with a bonus on intellect and agility items, while priests cannot get a bonus for agility or strength gear, so obviously class is taken into consideration to some extent.
Edited by Zurine on 12/9/2011 3:42 AM PST
100 Human Rogue
15150
12/09/2011 02:11 AMPosted by Lumineus
Okie dokie. Here's your +100." (We should really find ways for the game to say "okie dokie" in your chat log.


The game engine is Pinkie Pie?

No wonder it's so erratic...


Pinkie Pie is my Fav!

Now that I think of it. I need to get a mod that plays Pony sound bites when I play.
72 Human Warlock
5985
Onaeva
32 Draenei Priest
400
If I can ask this:

We are selecting our roles, right?
Can't the system be tweaked to cue the Need + bonus based on the role you've selected?



One would think that right? But nope, the elemental shaman won the bonus roll over a pally tank and then later on a warrior tank that were not part of her guild - I can understand winning bonus rolls against the hunters / warlocks because their dps and that fair game. But against tanks that was in epics from new 5-mans and ZA/ZG, yeah, they need fix that and they were tokens - that's different story. The RNG gods were smoking something last night for one person to win like that......
85 Gnome Mage
11675



Actually this game is incredibly difficult. Just think of all the stats that exist, the different ways they effect your play, the different caps you need to hit, and how they all work with each other. That's just what you need to know before you figure out your rotation. The issue isn't really about how hard the content but whether or not the loot system is fair. Which it isn't because of players that can be like you and roll on things that are near useless. I'm glad that the system in MoP will be fixed.


Elitest Jerks and Other sites can tell you EXACTLY what you need. It is where I go before I go anywhere. I get my spec and look for the caps I need to hit. I then go download the addons I need for that class/spec to make my life easy. After all of the out of game stuff is down I go to a dummy and get my rotation down (Managing Debuffs /Buffs / Spell Rotation). This takes a few hours of my time but by the end I gem and rotate well. Granted I am never perfect.

The problem is people are lazy or stupid or both. They refuse to do any work out of the game to make it better for themselves and everyone else. This game is not difficult. The hardest part of this game is to wade through the 80% of the population who are knuckle draggers to get a decent group together.



I'd buy the 5 boxxed shaman thing if you could gem and enchant ONE shaman properly.


These were old shaman who i decided to re activate, which I am letting allow to lapse again. I did not really care about gemming or gearing them properly. I just wanted to try it out again. I am surprised you did not notice the huge glaring problem with my build or my gear especially. It is fairly obvious I do not take PVP or 5boxxing all that seriously. I got em geared in a weekend and really have not done much else with them except sit AFK in LFR and roll need on gear for giggles.


It is BY FAR THE WORST COMMUNITY OF ANY GAME I HAVE EVER PLAYED.


So, you sitting in the LFR afk and taking gear that you don't need is not hurting the community. Also you make two points in your post, that you take time to gem and enchant your characters correctly and learn rotations, but then say "I did not really care about gemming or gearing them properly." This makes it sound like that just because you can if you wanted to, you should be treated like you did. Honestly, people like you are the ones who make it hard to enjoy online gaming.
Edited by Leny on 12/9/2011 3:45 AM PST
85 Night Elf Druid
9400
12/08/2011 05:04 PMPosted by Ro
If you could, get the guy who voiced Falric in HoR to say "okie dokie" instead of a simple chat message.

this
85 Blood Elf Paladin
2300
12/08/2011 05:00 PMPosted by Zarhym
This obviously needs to change and we're in the middle of discussing potential short-term solutions, as a more long-term solution will require programming new tech into the system which will account for class/spec.
Surely in real terms this only needs one extra attribute added to the item "record" (for want of a better word, since I know not of how your storage works) with a bitmap of eligible class/spec combos. Then some basic AND/OR logic is needed at the point of the roll.

I'm a bit surprised that with the Dragon Soul instance being created WITH the LFR that each item didn't have a class/spec bitmap field added showing eligible classes which would have been used in the "new" system.

I'm not sure this should take a huge amount of time, since any extra info could essentially be ignored by all other points in the software. It will take time now because, someone must review all loot and then assign acceptable roles to each.
100 Tauren Paladin
14285
What irks me is that Blizzard opted to "run with this" instead of making it function properly right out of the gate.

They figure that having a Hunter lose Need rolls on Hunter gear to a DK or Shadow Priest is "Acceptable" and in line with the same "Blizzard quality" we'd expect of them. Only it isn't. They believe that a player consistently being cheesed by the system is OK, because...? Because they gather that person will stay subscribed through such nonsense? Evidently.
95 Night Elf Druid
9975
Ah... software problems.

The problem here is more complex then just adding columns in the database.

does the need/greed system knows the current class of the player?
does the need/greed system knows the current spec of the player?
does the need/greed system knows the item's stats?
does the need/greed system can know if a stat is for a class/spec?


It may sound easy, but it's not if the need/greed system lacks information or cannot access the information because of design.

We know that the need/greed system knows that the current class can wear plate/leather/etc... but we can't say for sure that the system knows the class of the player. We know that the system currently can't identify the current spec of the player and to do so will probably need an overhaul of said system. The item stat access is available since the system can distinguish between spirit : not a tank stat, strength: not a healer stat.

currently the system can't associate a stat to the class/spec. the problem is: does the system can access the class/spec and then give the Okie dokie signal for the 100?


Note:

System.out.Write(String.Format("Need rolll - %0 for %1. %2",rollresult,player.name,(playerIsInRole ? "Okie Dokie here +100 for role bonus" : "Nope nope, no +100, you lack role");
Edited by Ceridan on 12/9/2011 4:15 AM PST
85 Orc Shaman
2010
Zahrym,

You are failing to inform us of the one true, serious matter in this entire thread:

12/08/2011 05:04 PMPosted by Ro
If you could, get the guy who voiced Falric in HoR to say "okie dokie" instead of a simple chat message.
This topic has reached its post limit. You may no longer post or reply to posts for this topic.

Please report any Code of Conduct violations, including:

Threats of violence. We take these seriously and will alert the proper authorities.

Posts containing personal information about other players. This includes physical addresses, e-mail addresses, phone numbers, and inappropriate photos and/or videos.

Harassing or discriminatory language. This will not be tolerated.

Forums Code of Conduct

Report Post # written by

Reason
Explain (256 characters max)

Reported!

[Close]