LFR loot rules are totally broken

85 Human Paladin
4785
12/09/2011 07:56 AMPosted by Exposed
Class specific wouldn't work at all. Thats like a healing trinket being marked priest, shaman, druid, paladin.. But then that doesn't stop a feral druid, moonkin, enhancement shaman, ret paladin, etc from need rolling and taking it.


The LFR loot should just be grouped (filtered). It would be manual, but it would only be for the pieces that drop from LFR so not that bad.

Example:

Heart of Unliving:
Classes: Paladin, Priest, Druid, Shaman
Spec: Holy, Holy/Disc, Resto, Resto (respectively).

(You're required to choose a specialization now, not that hard to tell..)

Also, log the acquirement of items per spec and limit those to greed rolls.
So say I win the Heart of Unliving in LFR, next time I can only roll greed.
This would slowly weed out the NeedOnEverything'ers and allow people who actual
need the item to have a better chance.

Same for tokens, If I've already acquired the head,shoulder,hands and leg tokens as a paladin spec'd in holy only allow greed. I would have to actually run the raid as dps or tank to get it again.

Even if I were to try and 'game' the system and queue as dps (speced) and do a lousy job just to try and acquire more tokens, it would still be logged and impossible for me to roll need another time (unless I spec'd tank the next week as well).

Soo..

When the server is preparing to send out the notifications for the clients to show what gear, do the following:

Does the client's current character match the specified class for this item?
Does the client's current character match the specified spec for this item?
Has the client's current character been logged to have received this loot before while in the current spec?

If either of the first 2 are false or the third is true, only allow greed/disenchant.
Edited by Stubb on 12/9/2011 9:04 AM PST
90 Dwarf Hunter
12430
What can be done about these people that come in and go AFK through trash and or half the boss fight and still think they have every right to roll on gear that people that actually did something should get.

There needs to be a way to gauge those things and reward people for actually doing what they are supposed to.

edit: it should be if they are flagged as AFK they should be allowed to be kicked with less votes or some other type of punishment
Edited by Tinypreacher on 12/9/2011 8:12 AM PST
8 Undead Rogue
0
What can be done about these people that come in and go AFK through trash and or half the boss fight and still think they have every right to roll on gear that people that actually did something should get.

There needs to be a way to gauge those things and reward people for actually doing what they are supposed to.

edit: it should be if they are flagged as AFK they should be allowed to be kicked with less votes or some other type of punishment


That's the last thing they should worry about. The players can usually sort that out by vote kicking the people in question. They need to fix loot distribution first.
85 Human Paladin
4785
What can be done about these people that come in and go AFK through trash and or half the boss fight and still think they have every right to roll on gear that people that actually did something should get.

There needs to be a way to gauge those things and reward people for actually doing what they are supposed to.

edit: it should be if they are flagged as AFK they should be allowed to be kicked with less votes or some other type of punishment


The group should be responsible for gauging a players worth, not the system's (out of combat).

Easy way to do it would be if the player is AFK while in combat, then boot that player from the group and flag them with the deserter debuff. It should have a grace period of 45 seconds to one minute for players that appear to have DC'd. Plenty of time to diagnose your network to see if you're even able to get back on. If so, retype your password and resume.
Edited by Stubb on 12/9/2011 8:20 AM PST
85 Night Elf Warrior
6265
All the people talking about the inability to filter out spec need to think about it a little more.

Even without spec, just filtering at least some primary stats would be a huge step.

A DK will never ever need AGI regardless of spec.

A Druid will never ever need STR regardless of spec.

Etc... Etc...

Even something that simple would be a huge step over what we have now.
85 Dwarf Priest
10095
12/08/2011 08:35 PMPosted by Quard

You pointed out the reason in the rest of your post. Technically, it's the same issue as the example I covered with hunters rolling on a two-handed Strength weapons. Spirit is a DPS stat for some classes which, therefore, means items with Spirit are flagged for healing and DPS. This is exactly what I mean by the system needing to be more intelligent.


But CLOTH spirit isn't used for DPS. That should be flagged only for healers, unless it already is.


shadow priests buddy
90 Undead Priest
9235
Would there be a way to allow a check to the highest equipped stat at the time of boss kill/raid entry/loot similar to trinkets and food that give you +80 Stamina and +80 of your highest stat in addition to checking your class? This may eliminate those people stacked with Agility from needing on Strength or Intellect gear and keep it more inline with the proper class getting the item.

I'm sure you have tons of suggestions that could work and naturally it all comes down to the time required to code it into the game, but maybe you can utilize the code from the same method used in my example. Anywho, just thought I'd throw that out there. Thanks for reading.
90 Blood Elf Warrior
4525
easy solution = don't lock the loot for the week!, this stuff is as easy as heroics, and i at least don't feel like doin em more than once since im not gettin loot after the first one! or valor! just not OK to me...
100 Human Paladin
10265
Before I get into this I will say I think the LFR was a great idea and truely appreciate the effort and idea. More than that my continued business will show that. So thank you!

I am certainly not a programmer but I fail to see how this whole issue was not discussed prior by the developers. I mean, did they really not have the resources to add more screening requirements to getting the +100 on the roll? Really?

There was no way to add into the programming that a Hunter (as a dps) can need on a str item but doesn't get the +100? I mean for at least most items there is a black and white list of which classes and specs actually need them but this could not be written into programmable language with the current resources available to Blizzard?

At the end of the day I can imagine they worked very hard and, let's face it, we'll all survive and continue playing. However, no one likes to be frusrated and this really feels like the devs either just ran out of time or resources and said, screw it, we'll deal with it later after months of players being annoyed because at the end of the day it probably doesn't affect a large enough percent of players.

I might be wrong but from my point of view, as one who knows nothing about programming or Blizzard's resources, it is hard to understand how this could not have been better implemented prior to now needing to patch it.
Edited by Sarvan on 12/9/2011 8:50 AM PST
100 Human Paladin
17090
Hey folks,

So, just to be clear, we're certainly aware that the loot system in Raid Finder needs to be smarter, as there's currently not a way for the system to determine loot eligibility based on talent specialization or class. To use the OP's example, if a Strength weapon drops and a hunter rolls on it, the system says "Yep, a DPS player is rolling on it. Okie dokie. Here's your +100." (We should really find ways for the game to say "okie dokie" in your chat log.)

This obviously needs to change and we're in the middle of discussing potential short-term solutions, as a more long-term solution will require programming new tech into the system which will account for class/spec.

We only ask that you keep in mind patch 4.3 is our first implementation of Raid Finder and the "Need Plus" system. The design is quite complicated and requires further iteration to make loot distribution more intelligent.


So, UI mods can access info about talent spec and class, but the loot system can't? That doesn't make any sense.

You also need to do something about 1 person winning 4+ drops in a single run. /random failing like that is why DKP was invented in the first place. For every item won perhaps, you could subtract some amount from their future rolls.
100 Human Paladin
10265
12/09/2011 08:49 AMPosted by Brudarek
You also need to do something about 1 person winning 4+ drops in a single run. /random failing like that is why DKP was invented in the first place. For every item won perhaps, you could subtract some amount from their future rolls.


Can't do that because most players would drop after winning something because there's not much point of fighting bosses you know you won't get loot from. Then a new player would come in and have just the same chance at winning as you and you'd be right back in the same spot. This is just one of those frustrating things about a group of 25 random players that you have to live with. At the end of the day, while I also find it frustrating, if I were the player who got lucky and won 4 pieces I wouldn't mind it nor would I give any away as a nice guy if I actually needed the upgrades.

it's also why some guild go in with like 15 or so players to help with that, but it certainly doesn't help the pugs.
Edited by Sarvan on 12/9/2011 8:56 AM PST
85 Human Paladin
4785
Something like the following could be done:

Character c = CurrentCharacter;

//see if character is eligible for item drops.

Items = BossDrops();

for(int i = 0;i<Items.length;i ++)
{

Item item = Items[i];

if(!item.isTrinket())
{
if (item.Ha!@#$() && item.HasInt())
{
if (item.isCloth())
{
//lock,mage,priest (shadow)
//Check aquirement log
//Send notification to client of eligibility based on current character 'c'.
}
else if(item.isMail())
{
// shaman + elem. spec.
//Check aquirement log
//Send notification to client of eligibility based on current character 'c'.
}
else if(item.isLeather())
{
// druid + boomkin spec
//Check aquirement log
//Send notification to client of eligibility based on current character 'c'.
}
}
else if(item.HasInt && item.HasSpirit())
{
//All healing class + specs
//All dps that use spirit as damaging or hit factor (druid/priest?) + (boomkin/shadow) spec
//Check aquirement log
//Send notification to client of eligibility based on current character 'c'.
}
else if(item.HasInt() && !item.HasSpirit() && !item.Ha%^-*())
{
//All of the following classes: druids(non feral),paladins(non prot/ret),priest,mage,lock,shaman(non enhanc.)
//Check aquirement log
//Send notification to client of eligibility based on current character 'c'.
}
else if(item.HasStr() && Item.HasNoAvoidance())
{
//Warrior, DK, Paladin classes + DPS spec.
//Check aquirement log
//Send notification to client of eligibility based on current character 'c'.
}
else if(item.HasStr() && item.HasAvoidance())
{
//Warrior, DK, Paladin classes + Tank spec.
//Check aquirement log
//Send notification to client of eligibility based on current character 'c'.
}
else if(itemHasStr()
if (item.HasAgility())
{

if(item.isLeather())
{
// druid and rogue

if(item.HasAvoidance())
{
// druid
//Check aquirement log
//Send notification to client of eligibility based on current character 'c'.
}
else
{
// druid and rogue
//Check aquirement log
//Send notification to client of eligibility based on current character 'c'.
}
}
if(item.isMail())
{
// hunter and shaman(enhan)
//Check aquirement log
//Send notification to client of eligibility based on current character 'c'.
}
}
}
else // is trinket
{
//filter the main stat + on use/ on equip in the same fashion.
}

}


I don't play all the characters, so I could be missing some filters or exceptions.

**edit: separated the trinket if completely.
Edited by Stubb on 12/9/2011 9:13 AM PST
100 Human Paladin
16245
Well would it be hard to break it down that plate wearers cant roll on anything agi, and mail wearers cant roll on anything with str?
85 Goblin Warlock
5415
12/08/2011 05:05 PMPosted by Knockboots
In the mean time players should just roll on items they need and stop being douches.



this
85 Goblin Rogue
2030
Something like the following could be done:

Character c = CurrentCharacter;

//see if character is eligible for item drops.

Items = BossDrops();

for(int i = 0;i<Items.length;i ++)
{

Item item = Items[i];

if (item.Ha!@#$() && item.HasInt())
{
if (item.isCloth())
{
//lock,mage,priest (shadow)
//Check aquirement log
//Send notification to client of eligibility based on current character 'c'.
}
else if(item.isMail())
{
// shaman + elem. spec.
//Check aquirement log
//Send notification to client of eligibility based on current character 'c'.
}
else if(item.isLeather())
{
// druid + boomkin spec
//Check aquirement log
//Send notification to client of eligibility based on current character 'c'.
}
}
else if(item.HasInt && item.HasSpirit())
{
//All healing class + specs
//All dps that use spirit as damaging or hit factor (druid/priest?) + (boomkin/shadow) spec
//Check aquirement log
//Send notification to client of eligibility based on current character 'c'.
}
else if(item.HasInt() && !item.HasSpirit() && !item.Ha%^-*())
{
//All of the following classes: druids(non feral),paladins(non prot/ret),priest,mage,lock,shaman(non enhanc.)
//Check aquirement log
//Send notification to client of eligibility based on current character 'c'.
}
else if(item.HasStr() && Item.HasNoAvoidance())
{
//Warrior, DK, Paladin classes + DPS spec.
//Check aquirement log
//Send notification to client of eligibility based on current character 'c'.
}
else if(item.HasStr() && item.HasAvoidance())
{
//Warrior, DK, Paladin classes + Tank spec.
//Check aquirement log
//Send notification to client of eligibility based on current character 'c'.
}
else if(itemHasStr()
if (item.HasAgility())
{

if(item.isLeather())
{
// druid and rogue

if(item.HasAvoidance())
{
// druid
//Check aquirement log
//Send notification to client of eligibility based on current character 'c'.
}
else
{
// druid and rogue
//Check aquirement log
//Send notification to client of eligibility based on current character 'c'.
}
}
if(item.isMail())
{
// hunter and shaman(enhan)
//Check aquirement log
//Send notification to client of eligibility based on current character 'c'.
}
}
else if(item.isTrinket())
{
//filter the main stat + on use/ on equip in the same fashion.
}

}


I don't play all the characters, so I could be missing some filters or exceptions.


I came into this thread to write something similar, probably more pseudo than you chose. Pretty simple to add a few switches or if/else to judge if an item has agility then deathknight.eligibility=false. A few of these cases written into the current system could alleviate a majority of the issues occurring right now with the system, certainly not all of them, and it would probably take an hour by one programmer to code tops.
Edited by Whysosrs on 12/9/2011 9:05 AM PST
85 Human Paladin
4785
I came into this thread to write something similar, probably more pseudo than you chose. Pretty simple to add a few switches or if/else to judge if an item has agility then deathknight.eligibility=false.


Yeah, the code would just have to be updated for new classes or class changes (like ranged dps using spirit for hit and what not).

It would require maintenance on expansions and large patches, but that's what we pay for.
Edited by Stubb on 12/9/2011 9:07 AM PST
86 Goblin Mage
14655
So me and the Girlfriend were having a talk about how atrociously bad the LFR loot system is and were brain storming ways to improve it. We came up with a couple of new rules that could be (from my limited knowledge, but it seems practical)

1st to addresss the issue if the same person winning multiple items in the same group against people who havent won. My thought was to implement basically diminishing returns in the form of a deduction to your roll per item won. Be 5,10 probably 25 points per item won however if you are needing on something for your role you will always get a min 101 roll i.e. you have won 4 items each reducing your roll by 25 points your max roll can now be 100 however if it is your role (where you would normally qualify for a role bonus) you will be given a 101. This will ensure noone will ever win loot over someone's main role regardless of how much they have already won.

Secondly, the issue of fair distribution can easily be addressed. Right now LFR is only tagged for 1 raid and you can easily tag each item with a proper class/spec and award roll bonus based on class/spec/role combination if all 3 are true then the roll bonus applies.
85 Human Paladin
4785
12/09/2011 09:06 AMPosted by Weirdmàn
1st to addresss the issue if the same person winning multiple items in the same group against people who havent won


No winning multiple items is strictly just good luck. If you successfully filter an items eligibility and limit the number of times a certain player in a given spec can acquire that item (on need roll), then the problem will slowly be resolved.

Will less people use LFR because of this, probably. But the people that are still using it will get a more fair chance at loot because the ability for people to need on items they can't really use will be eliminated (can't use at all, or for another spec they currently are not raiding as).

Overall, I don't think you would see that big of a decline in LFR given how easy and quick the runs are (maybe save spine and madness).
Edited by Stubb on 12/9/2011 9:21 AM PST
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