LFR loot rules are totally broken

85 Human Paladin
4785
12/09/2011 12:56 PMPosted by Phedree
The difference is that I plan to trade the item to one of the dps, not keep it and claim that I'm justified since Hit gives me Spirit... Oh wait, it doesn't... It's only the other way around...


Hmm, wouldn't it make more sense just to pass or greed? It's likely that the gear will go to a dps anyways. Why win it, then give it to the next highest roll (that's most likely the person that needed it to begin with)?

For Spirit gear
+100 if you have a mana bar
+100 more if your role is set to healer


That's a start, but int/spirit gear may be equally beneficial to a caster dps and healer in the same group. This would value the healer's need over the dps's.

For instance the DPS rolls a 97 and likewise, the healer rolls a 97. The dps would get a bonus of 100 totaling to 197 while the healer gets a bonus of 200 coming out to a winning roll of 297.

The DPS would never have a chance to win the item as long as there was a healer rolling need in the group basically.
Edited by Stubb on 12/9/2011 1:05 PM PST
100 Orc Warrior
9580
Hey folks,

So, just to be clear, we're certainly aware that the loot system in Raid Finder needs to be smarter, as there's currently not a way for the system to determine loot eligibility based on talent specialization or class. To use the OP's example, if a Strength weapon drops and a hunter rolls on it, the system says "Yep, a DPS player is rolling on it. Okie dokie. Here's your +100." (We should really find ways for the game to say "okie dokie" in your chat log.)

This obviously needs to change and we're in the middle of discussing potential short-term solutions, as a more long-term solution will require programming new tech into the system which will account for class/spec.

We only ask that you keep in mind patch 4.3 is our first implementation of Raid Finder and the "Need Plus" system. The design is quite complicated and requires further iteration to make loot distribution more intelligent.


good why your at it want to add something to prevent people from having the same chance at gear despite how many pieces they've already won? do you guys look at current player designed loot distribution systems?

I saw people with raidfinder four sets on day one, kinda sad.
85 Night Elf Druid
2715
It seems what all this comes down to is that we should all hope that MoP is not a full year away.

These problems and the lack of depth to the content will not retain people as well as ICC did for over a year...

If only they hadn't had rushed this patch to get it out before star wars, they could have spent an extra month fixing stuff like this and the majority of the playerbase (those who are now raiding for the first time ever or are restricted to LFR) would have been so much happier... oh well.
90 Tauren Shaman
2820
It seems what all this comes down to is that we should all hope that MoP is not a full year away.

These problems and the lack of depth to the content will not retain people as well as ICC did for over a year...

If only they hadn't had rushed this patch to get it out before star wars, they could have spent an extra month fixing stuff like this and the majority of the playerbase (those who are now raiding for the first time ever or are restricted to LFR) would have been so much happier... oh well.


The problem is they always promise to fix stuff in the next expansion.. Yet it never is fixed. The carrot is old and moldy for me.
100 Blood Elf Paladin
11775
12/09/2011 12:59 PMPosted by Dyrthor
I was in end time last with a rogue that didn't know what his cooldowns were. The druid healer checked his spec and linked each cooldown in party chat and the rogue still didn't know what they were. There are people who play this game that have no idea what certain abilities are or how to use them effectively. Creating a system that allows that type of player to roll need on gear that is sub-optimal for current spec is entirely Blizzard's fault. They said the system doesn't have any idea what a Sub Rogue is. Fine, that's getting fixed in MoP. However, the Cataclysm LFR system should have had an idea that Rogues do no use strength trinkets, Hunters do not use strength weapons, Warriors do not need agility trinkets, etc.


I see what your talking about, but I was mostly talking about LFR not LFG. True, people dont know what their stats need to be, I dont know how you get to an item lvl high enough to enter these queues and not know but hey nobodies perfect. Using, blizzard as a cop out to justify not knowing you stats is BS. There are tons of websites and guides that make it very simple to understand what you need to look for. Its like the blue in this post explained, they are currently looking at a way to differentiate between spec and class in the LFR loot roll system and until they do people need to just know the basics and roll on what THEY ACTUALLY need. If you dont know your class, do some research or dont do LFR or LFG. Quite simple.
12/09/2011 01:04 PMPosted by Stubb
The difference is that I plan to trade the item to one of the dps, not keep it and claim that I'm justified since Hit gives me Spirit... Oh wait, it doesn't... It's only the other way around...


Hmm, wouldn't it make more sense just to pass or greed? It's likely that the gear will go to a dps anyways. Why win it, then give it to the next highest roll (that's most likely the person that needed it to begin with)?


Lol I didn't say I would give it to the next highest roller. I'll give it to whoever I deem worthy. It might be the person doing the best dps or it might be the person doing the worst. All depends on how I'm feeling, who is being a jerk, who actually needs the gear, and who DOESN'T roll need on a Spirit item.

For Spirit gear
+100 if you have a mana bar
+100 more if your role is set to healer


That's a start, but int/spirit gear may be equally beneficial to a caster dps and healer in the same group. This would value the healer's need over the dps's.

For instance the DPS rolls a 97 and likewise, the healer rolls a 97. The dps would get a bonus of 100 totaling to 197 while the healer gets a bonus of 200 coming out to a winning roll of 297.

The DPS would never have a chance to win the item as long as there was a healer rolling need in the group basically.


The dps WOULD have a chance to win the item if no other healers in the group needs it. Until that happens they should only be able to roll on Hit and non-specific gear. As I said, healers can't convert Hit to Spirit, so we can't benefit from Hit gear, just Spirit and non-specific gear. Dps casters with that talent can benefit from Spirit, Hit, AND non-specific gear. Not fair.
43 Night Elf Hunter
11020
12/09/2011 11:11 AMPosted by Fornacis
Last night we had ONE guy win 4 pieces of gear......yeah


If it were you that won 4 pieces of gear would you still be here complaining?

If you won something on the first boss would you pass on every other item that dropped on the remaining bosses because you'd already won one?

....yeah
90 Night Elf Hunter
14905
12/09/2011 01:13 PMPosted by Forman
I was in end time last with a rogue that didn't know what his cooldowns were. The druid healer checked his spec and linked each cooldown in party chat and the rogue still didn't know what they were. There are people who play this game that have no idea what certain abilities are or how to use them effectively. Creating a system that allows that type of player to roll need on gear that is sub-optimal for current spec is entirely Blizzard's fault. They said the system doesn't have any idea what a Sub Rogue is. Fine, that's getting fixed in MoP. However, the Cataclysm LFR system should have had an idea that Rogues do no use strength trinkets, Hunters do not use strength weapons, Warriors do not need agility trinkets, etc.


I see what your talking about, but I was mostly talking about LFR not LFG. True, people dont know what their stats need to be, I dont know how you get to an item lvl high enough to enter these queues and not know but hey nobodies perfect. Using, blizzard as a cop out to justify not knowing you stats is BS. There are tons of websites and guides that make it very simple to understand what you need to look for. Its like the blue in this post explained, they are currently looking at a way to differentiate between spec and class in the LFR loot roll system and until they do people need to just know the basics and roll on what THEY ACTUALLY need. If you dont know your class, do some research or dont do LFR or LFG. Quite simple.


I totally agree with you. It's not hard to figure out what you need/don't need in this game if you put in the time. There are people who don't put in the time and they ruin the LFR experience for those that do know how to gear. If the system Blizzard designed protected the knowledgeable players from those lacking knowledge(or, here's a thought, actually tell the rogue who rolled need on a str trinket "Sorry, you can not need on a strength trinket") then we wouldn't be having the issues we're currently seeing in LFR.
85 Human Warrior
11815
12/08/2011 05:05 PMPosted by Knockboots
In the mean time players should just roll on items they need and stop being douches.


people in MMOs in an anonymous raid finding system not being douchebags to people they will likely never see again? its a pipe dream
12/09/2011 02:19 PMPosted by Dyrthor
I totally agree with you. It's not hard to figure out what you need/don't need in this game if you put in the time. There are people who don't put in the time and they ruin the LFR experience for those that do know how to gear. If the system Blizzard designed protected the knowledgeable players from those lacking knowledge(or, here's a thought, actually tell the rogue who rolled need on a str trinket "Sorry, you can not need on a strength trinket") then we wouldn't be having the issues we're currently seeing in LFR.


Yep. There are definitely still people at 85 who don't know the basics of their class. I knew a guy who made it to 85 on his Hunter and was wearing a mix of leather and mail armor, plus didn't know to use Trap Launcher. We took him into a dungeon one time and told him to freeze a mob. He went camo, crept right up to the trash, dropped the trap and facepulled the entire pack before I could finish typing "Nooooo!"
100 Human Hunter
15115
Yup. The Rogue that won Vishanka, Jaws of the Earth didn't go over well with the 3 Hunters in our group.
90 Troll Mage
0
12/09/2011 02:10 PMPosted by Jawaka
Last night we had ONE guy win 4 pieces of gear......yeah


If it were you that won 4 pieces of gear would you still be here complaining?

If you won something on the first boss would you pass on every other item that dropped on the remaining bosses because you'd already won one?

....yeah


You can diminish someones chances to win by each item they win, making it go from a decent chance to win a second item to statistically unlikely to winning a fourth item.

Just because you can't think of a solution, doesn't mean there isn't one.

... yeah
100 Night Elf Druid
18395


The DPS would never have a chance to win the item as long as there was a healer rolling need in the group basically.


I'm not sure why this would necessarily be an issue. The only caster DPS classes that benefit from SPI are classes that have talents that convert SPI to Hit. However, the same classes have access to caster Hit gear, so it's not like they're out of luck.

Healers benefit far more from SPI gear, so it makes sense that the system would favor healers for SPI gear rolls. Blizzard has stated outright that they intended SPI gear to be healer gear. They do a kindness to the Boomkins and Face Melters by having the conversion talent so our bags aren't bursting at the seams with redundant gear.

However, the same weighing sensibilities should apply to hit gear for caster DPS. Just as there is little reason for DPS to have SPI, there is also little reason for healers to have Hit gear (in PVP at least).

I don't think ANY of my caster raiders have ever rolled for SPI gear, not even to play with if healers don't roll on the piece.

LFR is not a replacement for a guild loot system. It's going to be broad-based. If you want fine-tuned loot rules, go find a guild that raids. I guarantee you not all of them are hardcore progression raid guilds, and many of the raid guilds that are trying to hold the line on a more tolerant policy of raid organization are desperately seeking those players who want to raid for fun.

Life is compromise. LFR's compromise is that you get an impartial arbiter for loot and loot rules that are going to be rather uncomplicated. Personally, I'd rather the devs spend their time figuring out how to get bosses to drop relevant gear than have them try and code around players who can't play nicely with others.
90 Human Hunter
8725
Hey folks,

So, just to be clear, we're certainly aware that the loot system in Raid Finder needs to be smarter, as there's currently not a way for the system to determine loot eligibility based on talent specialization or class. To use the OP's example, if a Strength weapon drops and a hunter rolls on it, the system says "Yep, a DPS player is rolling on it. Okie dokie. Here's your +100." (We should really find ways for the game to say "okie dokie" in your chat log.)

This obviously needs to change and we're in the middle of discussing potential short-term solutions, as a more long-term solution will require programming new tech into the system which will account for class/spec.

We only ask that you keep in mind patch 4.3 is our first implementation of Raid Finder and the "Need Plus" system. The design is quite complicated and requires further iteration to make loot distribution more intelligent.


Your loot system was broken before this. Hunter have been able to roll on strength items since the game launched. Same with classes using agility. All you have to do is set the system to keep hunters from rolling on anything strength based, as it is NOT what is best for us. And tell the system to ignore strength user's ability to use agility as it was specifically changed that they wouldn't want agility as it does nothing now for them. That part was changed, the rolling option was not. I'm not sure why this wasn't looked at beforehand with the number of threads from the playerbase telling you that the good will of Blizzard leaving the players to police themselves time and time again has failed.
12/08/2011 08:33 PMPosted by Zerovii

We recognize the issue with duplicate drops being won by the same person as well. This is something we need to fix.


What about people who do need both weapons?
Fury warriors, Dual wielders (shammy rogue... and eventually... pandas... well... ok... monks..)


not to mention the fact that if you only have time for two of the bosses... or your group entirely falls apart on the 2nd boss... if one person stays in que and they finish the last 2/three bosses of the run.... you get loot saved....


how about the 'if you actually saw the loot to click on... Save happens' .. because if you have only two hours to spend in a LFR and you happen to have ..... tons... and tons... of idiots who keep joining your group and leaving after one wipe on 2nd boss...

and you end up having to drop after banging your head against the wall of that boss for two hours you had...

and the group eventually wins and completes the place...

you now are saved to three bosses... two of which you never even saw.. but you still have to wait a week to get loot...

(happened on my druid... GM ticket = 'sorry, nothing can be done..')


... X_X

100 Orc Warrior
15135
Nice to see a post on this subject thats already 21 pages long.

A hunter won Gurthalak, Voice of the Deeps in my LFR the other night. Naturally he dropped raid less than 2 seconds from winning. I wouldn't have won but just hate seeing something that would have rewarded someone for the time they spent go to waste.
85 Goblin Death Knight
6160
We had a Balance druid win a strength trinket, then try selling it to the group proving how much of a noob he is because you can't trade gold cross server.

Then had a really bad Frost DK win Souldrinker, which is ok he had a right to roll. I was mad though, luckily when I ran it with my guild I got the 403 ilvl one. :P

inb4 "Thats a tank weapon", different sites and people have different opinions on this. As you can see deathwing drops weapons with special abilities for each spec, the only ones that aren't exclusive are Tank and Str dps, the weapon works well with both. 1 site has it BiS for Prot Pally, others have it BiS main hand for DW frost DK.
Edited by Blacksabath on 12/9/2011 4:27 PM PST
100 Draenei Shaman
14290
So for my own personal amusement and because I'm an extremely snarky person... I went ahead and whipped this up in about 2 hours

I did my best to make sure the formatting isn't completely fubar, but in case I missed something, I apologize for how this looks on a forum


// Spec-based roll bonus module for Need+ loot system
// Pseudocode version

Trigger event: Need roll under Need+ loot system

// Constants

// Classes
CLASS_DEATHKNIGHT 0;
CLASS_WARRIOR 1;
CLASS_WARLOCK 2;
CLASS_PRIEST 3;
CLASS_MAGE 4;
CLASS_HUNTER 5;
CLASS_ROGUE 6;
CLASS_PALADIN 7;
CLASS_SHAMAN 8;
CLASS_DRUID 9;

// Roles
ROLE_TANK 0;
ROLE_HEALER 1;
ROLE_DPS 2;

// Armor classes
AC_PLATE_STR 0;
AC_PLATE_STR_TANK 1;
AC_PLATE_INT 2;
AC_MAIL_AGI 3;
AC_MAIL_INT 4;
AC_LEATHER_AGI 5;
AC_LEATHER_INT 6;
AC_LEATHER_AGI_TANK 7;
AC_CLOTH 8;
AC_CLOTH_SPR 9;
AC_CLOTH_HIT 10;

// Trinket Types
TK_TANK 0; // Contains Stam, Dodge, Parry, or
// a tanking proc or on_use
TK_MELEE_STR 1; // Contains STR or a STR proc or a
// melee damage proc or on_use that
// doesn't proc a primary stat
TK_MELEE_AGI 2; // Contains AGI or an AGI proc or a
// melee damage proc or on_use that
// doesn't proc a primary stat
TK_CASTER_DPS 3;// Contains INT or an INT proc or a
// spell damage proc that doesn't
// proc a primary stat
TK_CASTER_HEALER 4;// Contains SPR or a SPR proc or a
// healing proc or on_use
TK_RANGED 5;// Contains AGI or an AGI proc or a
// ranged damage proc or on_use

// End Constants



// On trigger event
eventTrigger( Player ch, Item item )
{
bool hasBonus = FALSE;

switch( ch.class )
{
case CLASS_DEATHKNIGHT:
switch( ch.spec )
{
case 0: // Blood
if( ch.role == ROLE_TANK
&& (item.ac == AC_PLATE_STR_TANK
|| item.ac == TK_TANK) )
{
hasBonus = TRUE;
break;
}
break;
case 1: // Frost
case 2: // Unholy
if( ch.role == ROLE_DPS
&& (item.ac == AC_PLATE_STR
|| item.ac == TK_MELEE_STR) )
{
hasBonus = TRUE;
break;
}
break;
case default:
throw( exception );
break;
}
case CLASS_WARRIOR:
switch( ch.spec )
{
case 0: // Arms
case 1: // Fury
if( ch.role == ROLE_DPS
&& (item.ac == AC_PLATE_STR
|| item.ac == TK_MELEE_STR) )
{
hasBonus = TRUE;
break;
}
break;
case 2: // Protection
if( ch.role == ROLE_TANK
&& (item.ac == AC_PLATE_STR_TANK
|| item.ac == TK_TANK) )
{
hasBonus = TRUE;
break;
}
break;
case default:
throw( exception );
break;
}
case CLASS_WARLOCK:
switch( ch.spec )
{
case 0: // Affliction
case 1: // Demonology
case 2: // Destruction
if( ch.role == ROLE_DPS
&& (item.ac == AC_CLOTH
|| item.ac == AC_CLOTH_HIT
|| item.ac == TK_CASTER_DPS) )
{
hasBonus = TRUE;
break;
}
break;
case default:
throw( exception );
break;
}
case CLASS_PRIEST:
switch( ch.spec )
{
case 0: // Discipline
case 1: // Holy
if( ch.role == ROLE_HEALER
&& (item.ac == AC_CLOTH
|| item.ac == AC_CLOTH_SPR
|| item.ac == TK_CASTER_HEALER) )
{
hasBonus = TRUE;
break;
}
break;
case 2: // Shadow
if( ch.role == ROLE_DPS
&& (item.ac == AC_CLOTH
|| item.ac == AC_CLOTH_SPR
|| item.ac == AC_CLOTH_HIT
|| item.ac == TK_CASTER_DPS) )
{
hasBonus = TRUE;
break;
}
break;
case default:
throw( exception );
break;
}
case CLASS_MAGE:
switch( ch.spec )
{
case 0: // Arcane
case 1: // Fire
case 2: // Frost
if( ch.role == ROLE_DPS
&& (item.ac == AC_CLOTH
|| item.ac == AC_CLOTH_HIT
|| item.ac == TK_CASTER_DPS) )
{
hasBonus = TRUE;
break;
}
break;
case default:
throw( exception );
break;
}
case CLASS_HUNTER:
switch( ch.spec )
{
case 0: // Beast Mastery
case 1: // Marksmanship
case 2: // Survival
if( ch.role == ROLE_DPS
&& (item.ac == AC_MAIL_AGI
|| item.ac == TK_RANGED) )
{
hasBonus = TRUE;
break;
}
break;
case default:
throw( exception );
break;
}
case CLASS_ROGUE:
switch( ch.spec )
{
case 0: // Assassination
case 1: // Combat Mastery
case 2: // Subtlety
if( ch.role == ROLE_DPS
&& (item.ac == AC_LEATHER_AGI
|| item.ac == TK_MELEE_AGI) )
{
hasBonus = TRUE;
break;
}
break;
case default:
throw( exception );
break;
}
case CLASS_PALADIN:
switch( ch.spec )
{
case 0: // Holy
if( ch.role == ROLE_HEALER
&& (item.ac == AC_PLATE_INT
|| item.ac == TK_CASTER_HEALER) )
{
hasBonus = TRUE;
break;
}
break;
case 1: // Protection
if( ch.role == ROLE_TANK
&& (item.ac == AC_PLATE_STR_TANK
|| item.ac == TK_TANK) )
{
hasBonus = TRUE;
break;
}
break;
case 2: // Retribution
if( ch.role == ROLE_DPS
&& (item.ac == AC_PLATE_STR
|| item.ac == TK_MELEE_STR) )
{
hasBonus = TRUE;
break;
}
break;
case default:
throw( exception );
break;
}
case CLASS_SHAMAN:
switch( ch.spec )
{
case 0: // Elemental Combat
if( ch.role == ROLE_DPS
&& (item.ac == AC_MAIL_INT
|| item.ac == TK_CASTER_DPS) )
{
hasBonus = TRUE;
break;
}
break;
case 1: // Enhancement
if( ch.role == ROLE_DPS
&& (item.ac == AC_MAIL_AGI
|| item.ac == TK_MELEE_AGI) )
{
hasBonus = TRUE;
break;
}
break;
case 2: // Restoration
if( ch.role == ROLE_HEALER
&& (item.ac == AC_MAIL_INT
|| item.ac == TK_CASTER_HEALER) )
{
hasBonus = TRUE;
break;
}
break;
case default:
throw( exception );
break;
}
case CLASS_DRUID:
switch( ch.spec )
{
case 0: // Balance
if( ch.role == ROLE_DPS
&& (item.ac == AC_LEATHER_INT
|| item.ac == TK_CASTER_DPS) )
{
hasBonus = TRUE;
break;
}
break;
case 1: // Feral Combat
if( ch.role == ROLE_DPS
&& (item.ac == AC_LEATHER_AGI
|| item.ac == TK_MELEE_AGI) )
{
hasBonus = TRUE;
break;
}
if( ch.role == ROLE_TANK
&& (item.ac == AC_LEATHER_AGI
|| item.ac == AC_LEATHER_AGI_TANK
|| item.ac == TK_TANK) )
{
hasBonus = TRUE;
break;
}
break;
case 2: // Restoration
if( ch.role == ROLE_HEALER
&& (item.ac == AC_LEATHER_INT
|| item.ac == TK_CASTER_HEALER) )
{
hasBonus = TRUE;
break;
}
break;
case default:
throw( exception );
break;
}
case default:
throw( exception );
break;
}

roll( ch, item, hasBonus ); // Assuming TRUE means add 100
return;
}


Obviously this wouldn't conform to Blizzard's actual standards or the way their code works (I hope) but .... it only took me two hours
Edited by Visenya on 12/9/2011 5:25 PM PST
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