LFR loot rules are totally broken

hoping we can see a solution before MOP drops
Community Manager
12/08/2011 05:25 PMPosted by Treespring
One thing I'd love to see addressed is for example on madness, if 2x the same weapon drops, it would be nice if there was a way that both drops didn't go to the same person.

We recognize the issue with duplicate drops being won by the same person as well. This is something we need to fix.
100 Human Mage
19780
Is there any way we could remove duplicate items dropping off a single boss? It's awkward when you have duplicate tokens or weapons drop because everyone will roll need on both even if they don't really need two of the item.
90 Blood Elf Death Knight
13590
12/08/2011 05:04 PMPosted by Ro
If you could, get the guy who voiced Falric in HoR to say "okie dokie" instead of a simple chat message.


Oh how I want this.
100 Draenei Death Knight
16870
Zarhym:

Maybe I'm confused, but the system is already set up so that I (as a death knight) can't roll on plate gear with Intellect. What's preventing the extension of that system so that I can't roll on gear with Agility, either?
90 Night Elf Rogue
11385
I'm very happy to see Blizzard addressing the issue, cause at first I was like "Yea it's whatever, I get phr33 rolls on stuff I need! Sweet!" then came the issue of Hagara dropping my dagger and the resto shammy beating me with a 200...

3 rogues in the group and not one of us were able to use the drop. Disappointing to say the least. Thanks again Blizz for noticing and having already started working out a solution for this.
85 Blood Elf Hunter
9860
Hey folks,

So, just to be clear, we're certainly aware that the loot system in Raid Finder needs to be smarter, as there's currently not a way for the system to determine loot eligibility based on talent specialization or class. To use the OP's example, if a Strength weapon drops and a hunter rolls on it, the system says "Yep, a DPS player is rolling on it. Okie dokie. Here's your +100." (We should really find ways for the game to say "okie dokie" in your chat log.)

This obviously needs to change and we're in the middle of discussing potential short-term solutions, as a more long-term solution will require programming new tech into the system which will account for class/spec.

We only ask that you keep in mind patch 4.3 is our first implementation of Raid Finder and the "Need Plus" system. The design is quite complicated and requires further iteration to make loot distribution more intelligent.


12/08/2011 05:36 PMPosted by Zarhym
One thing I'd love to see addressed is for example on madness, if 2x the same weapon drops, it would be nice if there was a way that both drops didn't go to the same person.

We recognize the issue with duplicate drops being won by the same person as well. This is something we need to fix.


I find it very hard to believe that the people overseeing the LFR project didn't have the foresight to know that these would be serious issues before it went live.
100 Human Mage
19780
Zarhym:

Maybe I'm confused, but the system is already set up so that I (as a death knight) can't roll on plate gear with Intellect. What's preventing the extension of that system so that I can't roll on gear with Agility, either?


From what I understand the item is flagged as melee dps, caster dps, tank, or heal. It has no further refinements such as str using dps, agi using dps.
Shame there's not some sort of test server to reveal flaws like this.
85 Human Paladin
9010
Hey Zarhym, any chance you could get the guys upstairs to auto cash in tier tokens won, and if you currently own that tier token (whether you're wearing it or not), you can't roll for that tier piece again unless using a different spec that doesn't have the matching tier piece? I can easily see people getting their first or even second off spec piece before people get their main piece because they keep rolling for tier.

Heck, I'm tempted to roll on em and trade em for a piece I need next week just because the odds are so against me.
100 Human Mage
19780
12/08/2011 05:39 PMPosted by Crimsonsky
I find it very hard to believe that the people overseeing the LFR project didn't have the foresight to know that these would be serious issues before it went live.


I'm sure they knew it had issues but wanted to release the content with the system as is and get feedback while they work on doing whatever they can to help improve the system and then do a complete revamp in Mists.
90 Blood Elf Warrior
9195
12/08/2011 05:36 PMPosted by Zarhym
One thing I'd love to see addressed is for example on madness, if 2x the same weapon drops, it would be nice if there was a way that both drops didn't go to the same person.

We recognize the issue with duplicate drops being won by the same person as well. This is something we need to fix.


Warriors use two weapons.
90 Blood Elf Warrior
9195
Zarhym:

Maybe I'm confused, but the system is already set up so that I (as a death knight) can't roll on plate gear with Intellect. What's preventing the extension of that system so that I can't roll on gear with Agility, either?


This. God, this. Most of the problems with LFR loot aren't because of the Need+ system bolted on, it's with the core (broken) NBG loot system that Need+ is bolted to.
90 Blood Elf Priest
10190
Other than being able to roll on items with stats other than primary stats, spirit items are really weird in a different way. Some are still tagged healer only(only healers get +100 on the offhand from ultraxion, shadow priests, ele shamans, moonkins dun get need+ for some reason).. some other items are tagged both for dps and heal to the extent that mages and locks get +100 on cloth with spirit. and ret pallies get +100 on healer shield off blackhorn.
90 Blood Elf Warrior
9195
Zarhym:

Maybe I'm confused, but the system is already set up so that I (as a death knight) can't roll on plate gear with Intellect. What's preventing the extension of that system so that I can't roll on gear with Agility, either?


From what I understand the item is flagged as melee dps, caster dps, tank, or heal. It has no further refinements such as str using dps, agi using dps.


What you are saying is for the Need+ system. Underneath that is a need before greed system that disables need entirely for classes that generally aren't supposed to use certain items. That's why need is grayed out when a rogue goes to roll on mail, or if a hunter tries to roll on cloth, or if a warrior tries to roll on an Int sword, for examples.

The problem is, unlike how Int plate is flagged "off" for everyone that isn't a paladin, Agility items are flagged "on" for DK/Pal/War and Strength items are flagged "on" for Dru/Hun. This should not be the case. Disable the ability to roll need (at all) and then the issue with Need+ is a non-issue because it never even gets to the "need+" stage of the roll.
Edited by Verz on 12/8/2011 5:54 PM PST
85 Blood Elf Paladin
6590
12/08/2011 05:00 PMPosted by Zarhym
We only ask that you keep in mind patch 4.3 is our first implementation of Raid Finder and the "Need Plus" system. The design is quite complicated and requires further iteration to make loot distribution more intelligent.


It seems patently unintelligent to allow tier tokens from LFR to be non-unique. I had a healer pally win 3 shoulder tokens in the same run. 3. 2 of them simultaneously off the last boss. Seriously? Make them unique and the problem is solved.

The current strat is roll need period. If you can roll then roll, then offer to sell it to someone who lost if you dont need it. (I've see hunters do this with STR weps/trinks.) Guilds are queuing 10 people and doing this then distributing among themselves, making LFR a defacto guild run. How is this fun? Or fair for that matter? Not a fan right now. I rarely complain about the way Blizz handles things but this is bollocks. Bonuses? Seriously? As if being allowed to roll 'need' wasn't bonus enough?
85 Troll Druid
2420
Why not attach the item ID's to filter for classes that utilize the stat weights?

For example: (these are just made up for the purpose of ideas)

Trinket of Pew Pew- "x" agility, "Y" ability on proc
Agility= item weight-shaman, rogue, hunter, druid
bonus roll applied to class

Trinket of the Cow- "x' Strength, "Y" ability on proc
Strength= item weight-paladin, death knight, warrior
bonus roll applied to class

And so on and so forth.

Just because a stat can be used by a class (IE: Agility gives crit warriors) does not mean its stats are weighted for that class. This why a couple expansions ago warriors where rocking out all leather gear because the stat weights where all jacked up. It was changed and fixed then, so I would assume that somewhere in the coding its set up for class specific itemization.

OR------------- Give multiple resets for LFR each week, let people have 2 or 3 shots at gear and don't fix the itemization bugs.

I would rather the extra resets, then at least when the Death Knight wins an agility polearm, I may be mad, but at least in a couple days I'll get another shot.
- Technical Support
90 Human Priest
6220
Hey folks,

So, just to be clear, we're certainly aware that the loot system in Raid Finder needs to be smarter, as there's currently not a way for the system to determine loot eligibility based on talent specialization or class. To use the OP's example, if a Strength weapon drops and a hunter rolls on it, the system says "Yep, a DPS player is rolling on it. Okie dokie. Here's your +100." (We should really find ways for the game to say "okie dokie" in your chat log.)

This obviously needs to change and we're in the middle of discussing potential short-term solutions, as a more long-term solution will require programming new tech into the system which will account for class/spec.

We only ask that you keep in mind patch 4.3 is our first implementation of Raid Finder and the "Need Plus" system. The design is quite complicated and requires further iteration to make loot distribution more intelligent.


What about the issue where DPS are getting the +100 roll on spirit gear, which should have obviously been marked for the healing role? Healers are getting their +100 only for the spirit gear, DPS casters are getting the +100 across the board. Thus healers are losing out twice as badly as anybody else.

Here's a quote of the loot rules for item stat types:

If you're in a raid as one of the below roles here is what you'll receive a roll bonus on:

Tank:
Agility Leather (for druids)

Strength plate with tank stats on it

Trinkets with tank stats

Trinkets with Agility (for druids)


"Tank stats" = Dodge, Parry, or Mastery


Healer:
Any appropriate caster gear without Hit

Trinkets that trigger on heals or beneficial spells


DPS:
Mostly everything that doesn’t have a tank stat on it

Spirit gear (for elemental shaman, shadow priest, and moonkin)

Trinkets that trigger on damaging spells/melee hits


Notice the bolded part. Mages and Warlocks are getting the +100 on all spirit gear even though they make zero use of spirit outside reforging and gain no +hit from it at all. It's really getting out of hand. It's bad enough that healers get shafted by their hybrid spec counterparts (Shadow Priest, Moonkin, Elemental Shaman), but the others are just outrageous.

I know it'd take a few more lines of code (not a huge amount if you guys are worth your salt), but a detection subroutine needs to be put into place that disables the +100 rolls for any non-healer role spec if a healer uses a need roll on the item.

Please don't take my post as having a rude tone, as that isn't what I'm trying to put forth. I'm just tired of seeing mage and warlock after mage and warlock after mage and warlock etc. in spirit gear that they've won over healers. I know you don't have primary stat detection in the game yet (or spec detection), but it shouldn't be that difficult to put in detection of role based need rolls in order to facilitate disabling damage based need roll bonuses on healer items. That would be the best solution until you get MoP's system up and running on Live.

I'm seeing a lot of healers that are at their wit's end and about to just give up healing because of it being both a thankless, stressful job most of the time, and now the anonymous player greed making it exacerbatingly hard to gear up with any realistically fair shot at the items. Hell, I've had to resort to Needing on pure caster gear while on my Enhancement shaman spec against those that would take from the healer(s) present in the group just to try and win the item so I could trade it to the healer. It doesn't always work, but I've had to go that route (this is for 5 mans as obviously I can't get a roll bonus in a raid like this). I even did this in one of my dungeon runs against a warlock that needed and won over the healer for the spirit chest, then wanted Jaina's Staff. I rolled Need on the staff as Enhancement and won and told the warlock they could have the staff if they traded the chest to me (so I could trade it to the healer). I shouldn't have to resort to tactics like that just to help the biggest insult sponges in the game get gear they've worked their butt off for.

The Healing role CTA reward is now constantly up. I've not seen it inactive one run this week. I think you can guess why...
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