Epic Gems in 4.3: A Critical Analysis

87 Tauren Druid
7755

Welcome to your the enchanters world where disenchanted materials come from lfd.

Not really. The presence of an enchanter is still required for those materials, and I for one (on an alt) have had a fair amount of success over the months using the auction house for disenchant fodder.

Regardless, the basic principle is that an enchanter will get many more materials for her crafts than a non-enchanter. This is logical for professions without a dedicated gathering partner (like mining->blacksmithing), but it is violated here.

Its amazing the qq this generates while completing ignoring that for much of wotlk the gap between tailoring and the other professions was quite a bit larger, But because it was a proc and you needed a calculator to do the maths it was ignored. Let alone the leatherworking from 4.0 till the new bracer enchants was added was superior to all the other static buffs.

For me, it's not a huge deal. For tip-top progression raiders, it is. It's a different style, but it is just as problematic for them as it isn't for me. Aesthetically, it's a shame that a very fine balance prior to this patch has been broken.

The main issue with pvp gems is because of the nature of pvp. Any method of introducing epic gems via pvp in the past has by default immediately become the easiest method to obtain gems. They can give the via conquest points. (easy to aqquire).
[...]
IF we take GC at his word and it will take all expansion for the average raider to aqquire enough gems via geodes to completely gear himself I can't see how this is not making an mountain out of a molehill.


First, since they're capped, conquest points are intrinsically not easy to acquire. A hypothetical price of 4k conquest/gem means that no PvPer will receive more than 1 gem per couple weeks.

Second, my main point is what you've neglected here. To be the best at her game, a PvPer is now required to raid. This is the 'forcing PvPers to raid' that Blizzard expressly does not want to do. It's not a good thing for anybody.
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85 Human Death Knight
4820
at the top, priority please dev's
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85 Troll Priest
1675
prioritize this shizz
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100 Human Paladin
aus
19035
Second, my main point is what you've neglected here. To be the best at her game, a PvPer is now required to raid. This is the 'forcing PvPers to raid' that Blizzard expressly does not want to do. It's not a good thing for anybody.


Perhaps you are not understanding the reverse. Any non -raider or raider who is not acquiring gems from raiding fast enough would then be forced to pvp. Even if that pvp is just a afk bot, running around in a corner to aqquire the 100 conquest pts for a random bg win. Pretty sure the 4k price would also be complained about due to the difficulty in aqquiring 60k pts in a season.(4000*15)
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85 Human Paladin
9100
ktpearie supports blizzard making them hard to get. Something needs to be hard to do in this game...
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85 Night Elf Priest
9175
I support this thread. They should be equally difficult to get for everyone not easier if you choose to kill dragons instead of players.
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90 Troll Druid
8010
11/29/2011 07:55 PMPosted by Auntjemimaz
at the top, priority please dev's
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85 Night Elf Druid
5545
This is a disaster for the higher level pvp players. I raided from vanilla all the way until ICC, but I no longer have the time or patience for raiding.

In general, pvp gear is homogenized. The top players get it at roughly the same pace, there's very little luck involved, and gems and enchants are generally the same on everyone. Therefore, the only difference between people this season will be epic gems or lack thereof. It may seem like a small difference, but in high end pvp and mirror matches every little point counts. PVE'ers will have an intrinsic benefit over pvp'ers... and this isn't like pve gear, where the player is taking a penalty (losing resilience) in order to have the upgraded stats. This is a flat out upgrade. When everyone is wearing the same gear, small stat differences are magnified. These epic gems are going to end up forcing pvpers to pve again, something no one wants.

Please, take a look at this. My suggestion: make the epic gems like JC gems, and limit them to something like 3. This helps the market saturate faster, and simultaneously solves the problem of JC being worse and BS being better now. Unless ALL your gems are epic, BS isn't worse than it was and JC isn't better.
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87 Tauren Druid
7755
Perhaps you are not understanding the reverse. Any non-raider or raider who is not acquiring gems from raiding fast enough would then be forced to pvp. Even if that pvp is just a afk bot, running around in a corner to aqquire the 100 conquest pts for a random bg win. Pretty sure the 4k price would also be complained about due to the difficulty in aqquiring 60k pts in a season.(4000*15)


To be honest, if raiders acquire epic gems faster through PvP in addition to standard raiding, that's not exactly a huge problem. The characters are experiencing "more" of the game, so it only stands to reason they should derive rewards from both.

The problem lies in the requirement that a PvP-only player successfully raid in order to gear up properly for her primary goal. If gems were available faster through raiding than PvP I doubt we'd be seeing complaints -- it's the "only" that makes the difference. Arena seasons aren't difficult grinds like raids, subject to content completion and (time-limited) world firsts.

In fact, mathematically speaking it stands to reason that gems should be acquired somewhat slower through PvP than raiding. Not out of any moral superiority of one playstyle over the other, but simply because the gear-treadmill is different in a PvP environment, not subject to random drops and successive improvement.

My own view is that trying to impose scarcity in the gem market -- item enhancement -- is sort of closing the barn door after the horses have left. Fighting gear inflation requires fighting gear inflation. But I'm not Blizzard, and I'd rather keep the main point of this thread as narrow as possible.

TL;DR: I'ts not the faster that's the problem on the PvP end, it's the must.
Edited by Auroc on 11/29/2011 9:30 PM PST
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90 Orc Shaman
6835
The problem lies in the requirement that a PvP-only player successfully raid in order to gear up properly for her primary goal. If gems were available faster through raiding than PvP I doubt we'd be seeing complaints -- it's the "only" that makes the difference.


I know that I would still be annoyed that a PvE would receive gems faster, but it I agree that it wouldn't be worth complaining over. As it stands right now, I won't be seeing the new gems for a long long time.
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90 Orc Death Knight
6400
I made 40k today in the first 11 hours of patch day. Epics or not, JC's will not starve. Honestly, how do you complain about not having something you never had in the first place. Rare gems will be the same for weeks to come.

Somehow you think raiders are going to be flooded with epic gems and PVPers and casuals will have none. If epics are a reward for raiding, then so be it. I'll go raid if I want them. I won't sit back and complain 'I only like to farm herbs, make epics fall from nodes!!"

Yes, the post was well thought out. Yes, the post was well written. This is the summary of the whole post:

11/29/2011 03:06 PMPosted by Auroc
Now, I am basing this post on the assumption


The truth is, we have no idea what is happening with epic gems.

No matter what, I'll pay my sub and I'll keep playing. I will seek rewards and I will kill dragons.
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100 Human Paladin
aus
19035
To be honest, if raiders acquire epic gems faster through PvP in addition to standard raiding, that's not exactly a huge problem. The characters are experiencing "more" of the game, so it only stands to reason they should derive rewards from both.


The game is not raiders and pvp'ers

its more like 10% competitive raiders, 10% competitive pvp'ers and 80% casuals that level alts, run heroics and bh, raid once every now and then pvp now and then.

A report on drop rates on live which matches ptr results.

Mine ended when everyone in my raid opened their first one and all but two of us got green gems.

The other two got an Inferno Ruby and an Amberjewel.
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85 Blood Elf Paladin
10520
One thing I'd add to the JC front that really bugs me.

This whole expansion, and indeed, ALL OF LAST EXPANSION, JCers were not given a single raid pattern for an epic neck, ring, or trinket (And in Cata, we didn't even get an entry level epic like we did in wrath). This was all on the supposition that we would get epic gems and maintain the status quot of wrath. But as you've adequately said, JCers now have lost nearly all control and handle of the gem market, so we're left without our market and no raid patterns.

That's not fun.
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100 Tauren Shaman
16065
This is well thought out.

The other problem touched on is that this has ruined the balance of professions. It has always been that crafting professions provide a +80 Bonus to your primary stat. Even if the benefit comes from procs (e.g. Engineering) the bonus has always been the same when you average it all out. The big exception of course being Jewelcrafting which gave +81 up till recently.

Although most people may not care that Blacksmithing now gives +100, and Jewelcrafting now gives only +51. I know dozens of players in medium to high end guilds that will burn 10k gold powerleveling new professions as a result. For people who push progression and don't mind waving some gold around, an extra 20 to 50 points in your primary stat is more than worth it. (To put that in perspective, that is like upgrading from a piece of T12 tier to a piece of T13 tier... a small but significant increase.)

In addition to all the complaints from casual and pvp players, just throwing in my 2 cents that this annoys the heck out of raiders as well.
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100 Blood Elf Paladin
11080
Honestly, the approach just reeks of bad design. Blizzard found the most hamfisted way to solve the people hoarding pyrite problem, but didn't bother to take into account all the negative ramifications of that solution.

A far better solution would have been to add in new JC dailies, possible a weekly instead or as a supplement, that rewarded a stack of ore that would yield epics gems and perhaps dust to trade in for JC tokens. I guess they could keep the geodes. They would still need to give alchemists access to the transmutation recipes and upgrade the fire prisms to have a chance to drop them. It goes without saying the model would feel much better to everyone involved instead of what we have now.

I see too big issues, Blizzard should have telegraphed that they had a means for JCs to have access to a better supply of gems than non-JCs; however, that source wouldn't be in game till epics were added (IE don't stockpile ore). The other issue issue is they are trying to keep epic gems rare, which isn't really practical given how that screws with the balance between profession perks. Maybe it would be better for the game to not have epic gems? Since crafting recipes for other professions can't compete with heroic gear, why not do the recipes for rings, necks and fist weapons? The best of the best will still have to replace them and it would help everyone with gearing up. Hell, with LFR, why not just drop all crafted items to the level of gear from LFR with maybe each profession get a recipes to fill one slot with an item to compete with normal mode gear?
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85 Orc Shaman
8600
What do you think the good pvpers are gonna do if they need gold to buy these gems?

They will sell rating, and fairly sure nobody aside from the people buying it wants that.
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85 Goblin Death Knight
10415
Some flaws I see in this thread are the same issues that plague enchanting and the auto-DE arguements. You, as a player, regardless of profession, are NOT entitled to anything in this game.

Jewelcrafters cut gems. Gems are consumable. Yes, you can easily prospect ore for uncommon and rare gems just like enchanters can DE BoE items crafted by other professions for dust and essences. But if you want crystals, your best source for mats is just buying them off of the AH. And if you want epic gems, you will have to buy them off of the AH as well, just like most of the raiders will have to.

Meanwhile, all of the professions are still balanced, and will be for at least a few weeks. That is more than enough time for Blizzard to introduce new sources for epic gems along with S11 gear as well as introduce a minor patch if needed to keep things balanced. In other words, the sky is not falling.
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90 Orc Death Knight
6400
11/30/2011 07:21 AMPosted by Jozie
the sky is not falling.


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90 Orc Shaman
17940
I did 5/8 last night on my DK, and got 4 Zephyrites, 2 Dream Emeralds, and an Amberjewel.
One person in my group got a Queen's Garnet.

My rough T13 profile has 20 red sockets.
(http://www.wowhead.com/profile=33781919)

If you think I'm going to be raidraidraidraidraiding to fill those with epics next week, you and I have a very different vision epic gems. I'm not going to put any epics in my current gear, and until my raid puts a good bit of work into heroics, I won't even consider putting any into non-BiS heroic gear.

As far as the PvP side of it goes, yeah people playing that game go to great lengths sometimes for the edge, maybe even clearing a raid now and then. The first half of Dragon Soul is really really easy (I haven't done Spine/Madness so I don't know), not really that much to ask of our best duelists. I do think there should be some mechanism for getting them via Conquest Points after you have earned enough to buy all your new Ferocious gear. Maybe they'll add it in later.

Epic gems are not as big of deal as you make it sound. I haven't cut a single epic, and I've made some quite nice bank with jewelcrafting in the last day.

Really, there's quite a lot wrong with this thread, but mostly you're jumping to conclusions and overreacting. Just play the game.
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100 Troll Hunter
11525

Epic gems are not as big of deal as you make it sound. I haven't cut a single epic, and I've made some quite nice bank with jewelcrafting in the last day.


I don't see why anyone thinks this is relevant. Glad you're making mad stacks of cash, but that has nothing to do with what the OP has been saying.

The point is that access to epic gems are out of the jewelcrafter's control, in a way that other professions aren't.

I can theoretically make mad stacks of cash buying up comics on eBay and reselling them, but I can't control what comics are going to be there in the first place. I have to depend on someone else putting them there before I can do anything about it. It's the same now with jewelcrafting. I have no control over the end product, and that is unlike most other professions in this game. Leatherworkers can control their end by crafting epics from raw leather. Blacksmiths craft epics from raw ore. Until now, jewelcrafters also supplied epics from raw ore. Now that's been broken and we have to depend on raiders finding these epics for us.

No other crafting profession has to do this.
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