Has 4.3 killed guild 25m raiding?

85 Orc Warlock
11455
I having been seeing that most of the 25m guilds are no longer raiding, but instead switching to 10m's.

Has the latest patch killed the 25m content?

Or has the LFR feature become the only true way to do a 25m?



Just Wondering.
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85 Gnome Rogue
8175
we still do 25 man.
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85 Blood Elf Paladin
12100
It is much more then 4.3, though the fact we get LESS loot per player and equal VP probably has something to do with it. Tack on higher system requirements, and the difficulty in recruiting hardcore raiders because everyone is casual these days, and there you have it. 25 man raiding is indeed dying, if not dead at this point. I know talk of other MMO's where the Dev's don't kick larger raids in the balls has been the topic of late in <Legit> and I don't blame them.

Ya the grass is just the same shade of green at the end of the day, but whats the point of running a 25 man anymore outside of having more then 9 friends? there isn't any, and the trouble (which is considerable when compared to 10 man) isn't worth the effort any more. I know I speak for almost all of my guild when I say the only reason we log on to raid any more is because we enjoy playing together. If it was about the loot, we would have died like AM, Doom and the many other 25 mans. attendance is still very strong, but not because of the game. It's because of the in guild community.

If we're only playing the game because of friendships, what does that say about the state of the game itself? Many nails were slung at 25 mans this xpac, and 4.3 is most likely the last nail in it's coffin.
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2 Goblin Rogue
0
It is much more then 4.3, though the fact we get LESS loot per player and equal VP probably has something to do with it. Tack on higher system requirements, and the difficulty in recruiting hardcore raiders because everyone is casual these days, and there you have it. 25 man raiding is indeed dying, if not dead at this point. I know talk of other MMO's where the Dev's don't kick larger raids in the balls has been the topic of late in <Legit> and I don't blame them.

Ya the grass is just the same shade of green at the end of the day, but whats the point of running a 25 man anymore outside of having more then 9 friends? there isn't any, and the trouble (which is considerable when compared to 10 man) isn't worth the effort any more. I know I speak for almost all of my guild when I say the only reason we log on to raid any more is because we enjoy playing together. If it was about the loot, we would have died like AM, Doom and the many other 25 mans. attendance is still very strong, but not because of the game. It's because of the in guild community.

If we're only playing the game because of friendships, what does that say about the state of the game itself? Many nails were slung at 25 mans this xpac, and 4.3 is most likely the last nail in it's coffin.


I like the implication that loot had something to do with the other 25 man guilds on Dalaran dying...
You don't get *less* loot per person, by the way, 25 man does still get slightly more. That's just math. The problem is that the slight is extremely slight.

10/2= 1 drop per 5 players
25/6= 1 drop per 4.16666667 (lol) players

Of course, you also run into the fact that it's a lot easier by chance to get unwanted gear when you're getting 2 per boss, which is why the average 10 man only raider is less geared than the average 25 man only raider. DEing loot early on and getting screwed by bad token drops is a real problem in both formats, but it does affect 10 man more.


I mean, I'm in agreement that it's an unfair system towards 25 man but..lol. I do think the legendary system would make more sense if both formats completed things at around the same pace, but 25 man was able to build say...2 or 3 at a time rather than 1. You'd maintain close to the same equivalent number of legendaries per raid group (ratio-wise) and both formats would then get it at the same progression point.
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85 Blood Elf Paladin
12100
2 tokens in 25 man=12.5 raiders per token
1 token in 10 man=10 raiders per token

Hence less loot in 25, I should have clarified, but the point was made. There is no reason to do 25's other then the fact you have more then 9 people.
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85 Blood Elf Paladin
12100
Well regardless, as long as my people want to do 25's, I will keep fielding them. If they wanna go play TOR instead, that's an option as well. Our TOR guild has almost every core raider in it atm. If not TOR, then maybe something else, but WoW has indeed jumped the shark and I know we're actively discussing other outlets as a guild. Until then we will raid 4.3 as normal.

13th tier of the same ol same ol, with swift kicks in the nuts the entire xpac to 25 mans. Why are we here again?

Also: Leitka I was on a rant, it wasn't an intended troll. So don't take it personal.. Whatever the exact reasons for Shunjal destroying his own guild were, it's obvious that 99% of the other 25 mans raided for different reasons then we do, and they are no longer around. If you wanna put that IQ of yours to work, I'm all ears. I'm pretty sure though community has something to do with our good attendance and ability to still make 25 mans. Does this make us better? Nope. No such claim is being made. But the philosophy behind the guilds were indeed different and we (and Gaia) are still here.
Edited by Alshar on 11/30/2011 1:36 PM PST
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85 Human Paladin
11425
25 man is more alive than it's ever been.

I just pugged one cross realm and it was my first time in Dragon's Soul and we downed 4/8!!!

It was a breeze!!!
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85 Blood Elf Paladin
12100
I am hardly mad, but thanks for wondering. It's more of a disappoint. Most of us have been together 3-5 years or longer. It sucks when your main activity turns to crap and you're powerless to stop it. I'll be sad if 25 mans die because I know I will lose contact with people I enjoy being around.

You don't have to be empathetic, but thanks for detracting from what could have been a serious discussion. God forbid we have posts with content on these forums. Where is Cana when you need him?
Edited by Alshar on 11/30/2011 1:58 PM PST
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2 Goblin Rogue
0

Also: Leitka I was on a rant, it wasn't an intended troll. So don't take it personal.. Whatever the exact reasons for Shunjal destroying his own guild were, it's obvious that 99% of the other 25 mans raided for different reasons then we do, and they are no longer around. If you wanna put that IQ of yours to work, I'm all ears. I'm pretty sure though community has something to do with our good attendance and ability to still make 25 mans. Does this make us better? Nope. No such claim is being made. But the philosophy behind the guilds were indeed different and we (and Gaia) are still here.


You're leaving out some factors, likeeee...

Legitimate has a larger roster and pretty much always has. Doom was definitely all about community, we're still together as a community even despite the fact that some of us transferred, some moved on entirely from the game, and some moved to more casual raiding. Doom's always been about the community; it's just a tight-knit one.

I don't think that a guild folding because of people being bored and moving on from the game reflects any difference in 'philosophy' at all. It just reflects different situations. Some got bored faster than others. The thing that *did* hold Doom together for the past year *was* the community; it was never about loot or being the best. We raided together because we liked each other at the core and even continued to do so past the point where many would have quit had they not cared enough about the guild as a community to stay together. That very fact reflects exactly why your little 'analysis' is wrong.

So yeah, if you think that Doom wasn't a community, you're just showing how blatantly ignorant you are about the guild. A community that mostly only interacted with itself? Definitely. But still a very, very strong community.

As for the tokens per raider argument; you're also less likely to get an unusable token on 25 man by the nature of how many players per token there are in 25 mans. In 10 mans, some tokens will be used once and then they go to waste every other time they drop. That's why those are the way they are. While the loot system is definitely *not* very fair, the token system is pretty fair considering that variable.
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85 Blood Elf Paladin
12100
We run a larger roster because it's nice not to gimp a raid with FnF when 2 healers don't show or w/e. Our overall roster is large because I don't kick retired raiders either. They go to FnF, and only get kicked for large amounts of inactivity. Some people (former officers/core) never get kicked. Our raiding roster is 30-32 people. Doom chose to run with an amount less then that. That was their choice (and downfall when Shunjal kicked 1/5 to-1/4 of his raid).

I didn't say Doom had no community, I said w/e kept them going wasn't strong enough to keep them going currently. Actions > Words. If community mattered, then Shunjal would have handed GM to someone who would keep the guild going, rather then let it flounder with his in house pet. Again actions > words. I know for a fact there were/are people in Doom who would have kept things going had they had the power to do so. I'm sure you're well aware of this as well. Again this isn't about who is better, because I'm sure we both could care less about what goes on in our individual /gchats. If you wanna make an educated opinion about why guilds like Gaia and ourselves still function at a 25 man level and the others left/died/imploded then the only way to do so is to spend time in both guilds.

You've gone to college, so I assume you know how to do a proper scientific study.

You keep trying to make this either personal or about who is better, now not with progression but now with community? Geezus. Not every discussion is about coming out on top. I'm pretty convinced at this point you just like to argue. I've witnessed many rants of yours in /2 bashing 10 mans and defending 25's. Now you're basically doing the opposite. The new token system is what it is. A way to choke gear progression and keep us raiding for longer.
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90 Troll Shaman
11565
I killed 25m raiding.

With my fist.
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2 Goblin Priest
0
If looks could kill, you could've just used yours to destroy 25m raiding once and for all, Shamtastik.
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2 Goblin Rogue
0
11/30/2011 02:45 PMPosted by Alshar
We run a larger roster because it's nice not to gimp a raid with FnF when 2 healers don't show or w/e. Our overall roster is large because I don't kick retired raiders either. They go to FnF, and only get kicked for large amounts of inactivity. Some people (former officers/core) never get kicked. Our raiding roster is 30-32 people. Doom chose to run with an amount less then that. That was their choice (and downfall when Shunjal kicked 1/5 to-1/4 of his raid).


That's not really why we're no longer raiding, that's just why our last few weeks *weren't* 25 man.


I didn't say Doom had no community, I said w/e kept them going wasn't strong enough to keep them going currently. Actions > Words. If community mattered, then Shunjal would have handed GM to someone who would keep the guild going, rather then let it flounder with his in house pet. Again actions > words. I know for a fact there were/are people in Doom who would have kept things going had they had the power to do so. I'm sure you're well aware of this as well. Again this isn't about who is better, because I'm sure we both could care less about what goes on in our individual /gchats. If you wanna make an educated opinion about why guilds like Gaia and ourselves still function at a 25 man level and the others left/died/imploded then the only way to do so is to spend time in both guilds.


Actually, the reason we didn't keep it going was because it was pretty much a mutual conclusion among most of the officers that it wasn't worth the effort when people had schedule conflicts and lack of interest. Those of us that could have (and were willing to) keep it going chose not to. A hefty part of why is because when you're going to have to replace a lot of people who made the guild what it was, then it's just not really the same thing. It goes back to that whole 'raiding with people you like' thing.

I don't think I said anywhere that it was about who was 'better', keep your projection to yourself. I'm saying that you're speaking about things that you don't actually understand. And you're proving me right at every turn.

You, again, are showing how little you know about the situation. Third party information is not the most reliable.


You've gone to college, so I assume you know how to do a proper scientific study.


There's nothing 'scientific' about this conversation. Studies are also notoriously unreliable, because rarely do they account for all factors. That's why "studies" can support two contrary theories at once. ;)


You keep trying to make this either personal or about who is better, now not with progression but now with community?


I don't think I did that anywhere? You're the one that busted into the thread initially to say " If it was about the loot, we would have died like AM, Doom and the many other 25 mans. attendance is still very strong, but not because of the game. It's because of the in guild community."

All I did was say "Hey, that's not exactly an accurate picture you're painting." I never said Legitimate lacks a community, never said anything about progression or any comparison on community, just a statement that community has very little to do with why Doom is no longer raiding. You paint red herrings and argue to them left and right...


Geezus. Not every discussion is about coming out on top. I'm pretty convinced at this point you just like to argue. I've witnessed many rants of yours in /2 bashing 10 mans and defending 25's. Now you're basically doing the opposite. The new token system is what it is. A way to choke gear progression and keep us raiding for longer.


My 'rants' were always about the coordination factor required for 25 vs 10. And that remains the same; 10 is way easier to coordinate than 25, and I'm saying that from a 10 man perspective now as well. The loot system isn't something that can really be interpreted multiple ways; it is (as you said) what it is. 25 man gets slightly more loot per player than 10 man (but could probably use more), more token competition (which is perfectly sensible given the odds of getting the token you want increase when you're getting more than one per boss. That and item-acquisition is geared towards more than just the first week of a raid. Sure, it's very competitive for loot at first in 25 man, but over time you normally have far fewer of those tokens go to waste for the same reasons.)

Once again, I never said anything about 'coming out on top', that's all you. You're the one that made a somewhat snide remark about other guilds. Do I like to argue? Sure. You do too, though, and I really doubt you have the audacity to deny that. ;)

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2 Goblin Rogue
0
I killed 25m raiding.

With my fist.


Your face is scary.
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85 Tauren Druid
11915
Nice Job Leitka. I think Alshar was hopping every Doom members sub had run out so he could talk trash without consequence or correction.

More lies from the community "friendly" Legitimate as usual. Doom kicking retired people. Doesn't happen without excessive inactivity or special circumstances. Almost half of our rank 7 FNF are former raiders. More lies.

Doom quit raiding because they majority didn't care to continue, its that simple. One officer and another half dozen long term raiders wished to keep raiding so they transferred. I don't think you believe Shunjal should have given GM of a 25 man raid guild to a small group of people who couldn't even make a 10 man from their numbers. There are 13 raider rank and higher members currently in Doom (rank 6+), since you are so knowledgeable about our roster I am sure you can do the math.

Blizzard should offer counseling to GMs who cannot deal with other guilds existence for people like you Alshar. Maybe they could use the $15 a month I gave them for seven years to see recycled content and re-hashed games like SC2 and Diablo 3. It would certainly make the community a better place.
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85 Blood Elf Paladin
12100
Pravox comes out from behind alts. Considering you insult your own guild members in public, I'll take anything you say as pretty much BS.

I did have some massive laundry list of a reply, but meh. This thread will most likely get deleted anyway. You're a DB Pravox, and a notorious liar. Sorry I cited your guild among other no longer functioning 25 mans brah, won't happen again. I'll make sure to remind everyone tonight when we pull a 25 man boss.

We're alive, you're dead.

The end.
Edited by Alshar on 11/30/2011 5:16 PM PST
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