Has 4.3 killed guild 25m raiding?

85 Night Elf Hunter
4965
12/02/2011 12:44 AMPosted by Lietka
Coolstorybro.


Does everybody just not use spaces when they type this nowadays? wtf...

12/02/2011 06:09 AMPosted by Loceheru
My original question was to try to see if there was a valid reason for me to continue my efforts on attempting 25m content or to see if switching to 10m will get me the same challenge.


IDK, that seems like a better question to ask your guild/your raiders. If you're noticing some attendance problems, then it may be a good idea to just switch over to 10m. If not, and your raiders are happy doing/attending raids for 25m content, then I wouldn't see a problem in continuing it.

Basically, it's better to ask your guild what they wanna do(or maybe the guild/raid leadership forums). When you come to the realm forums and mention anything about death of anything on the server/game, it usually turns into a flame war, bacon spam, etc. as you have seen. IDK, I don't think Dalaran people handle death too well. This thread (I haven't read it yet) will probably help answer some of your questions: http://us.battle.net/wow/en/forum/topic/3279038583

If you're worried about recruitment for 25m on Dal, I don't think you'll see good results. The majority play 10s over 25s and I don't think people will be switching to this server for 25m. IMO, 25m is dead for the majority of the server, but that doesn't matter as long as your raiders are fine with continuing. Legitimate is a good example of one of the few remaining 25m guilds that still stands strong (I'm not completely sure how Gaia is doing which is why I didn't use them as an example, but maybe they're doing just as well. I only singled out Legitimate because I know from experience.)

Edit: Hey, look! It's page 9!

Edit #2: I thought you were GM of Black Death when I made this post and I'm not gonna bother editing the post as it still has some good points. lol
Edited by Coolstorybro on 12/2/2011 8:30 AM PST
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85 Tauren Druid
11915
I nominate Coolstorybro/Obfuscation/Puddink/Foreverbacon/Whoyou/Meztli,
as forum poster of the week for using six characters in one thread. We wouldn't have reached page 9 without you. Thank you for your contribution to the Dalaran community.


May as well give my take on the 25 man issue now. For me, the demise of 25 is a combination of factors. It is just more difficult to field a full raid group of 25 people from a scheduling perspective. LFR , loot simplification, server xfers and even consumables nerfing hasn't helped 25 man or overall server community stability in the long run. Now there are even less reasons to organize large groups to achieve common goals.

The game really doesn't promote any guild activities outside of scheduled raid or rated BG times anymore and there are increasing options to satisfy that need without dealing with herding 24 or even 9 other people around. It is clear the majority of the players don't want to spend any time in game that doesn't involve instant fighting/loot so Blizzard has slowly removed all those requirements. Many guilds have evolved into groups of people playing more than WoW together and often spending the minority of their gaming time actually playing this game. It has reached the point where they aren't really WoW guilds at all, but Ventrilo/Mumble buddies who play WoW a few hours a week together.

Maybe this is why Blizzard is focusing on lobby games like SC2 and Diablo3 where you don't have any persistent world to interact with others. At this point most of Azeroth and especially Orgrimmar and Stormwind are nothing but glorified game lobbies where people idle before selecting some LFR/LFG/BG queue. I have to wonder if "Titan" will be a lobby game too.

Interest in high-end raiding and the game in general is waning and it has been evident for a long time that anything else worth playing drains the attention span of the player base. Honestly how many of you were just hoping your current raid would end so you could go back to playing Skyrim, BF3, LoL , SWTOR or whatever instead of focusing on completing Dragon Soul.

Those are many of the reasons I am moving away from 25 man raiding in WoW after 7 years and according to population numbers it seems I am not alone. It is amusing that some people and apparently Blizzard developers think many of us were playing for loot. Now that we have tons of ways to easily obtain it, the game isn't as interesting.

Maybe the most fun I had this xpac was participating in the guild fishing achieve since it reminded me of the old WoW where we needed to do things outside of raiding. I actually used to enjoy late night consumable farming and helping people get geared or keyed to do content. Now there is nothing left to do in WoW except twink someones 48th alt when I am not raiding. Hell at this point I would even enjoy a gate opening event for the server to increase the community. Who knew we would be playing a MMO that was working to devalue nteraction with the game world and other players?

TDLR 25 man is harder

edit: @ Poogle or Leitka - would one of you link an appropriate youtube for people to listen to while they read the book I just wrote. k thx
Edited by Pravox on 12/2/2011 11:27 AM PST
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100 Pandaren Priest
17225
Wait..... What?! I must have refreshed this thread for nearly 30 minutes before going to bed and it took you six hours to write all this?!?! GAAAAHHHHHHHH!!!!!

While this thread is long and well full of ad hominem..... might as well say something I feel is important. Between all the guild leaders, shunjal was actually a decent leader. He got people moving. That was not my point to my post, the point was what Alshar pointed out. If you guild is full of mercenaries, then you aren't a guild in the first place. So if ever you choose to say "that guy wasn't apart of our guild" you were most likely right. The reason you guys switched to 10 man raiding was because of that. Not that there is anything wrong with 10 man raiding, but that means you had 15 other people you did not consider part of your guild. It sometimes makes me wonder if I had stayed would you have kicked me? Something to think about.


A) Doom didn't go to 10 man raiding. We dropped to 10 mans temporarily while deciding what to do with the future, then stopped entirely. While we were doing those, there were a *lot* of core members that weren't in it.

B) Doom wasn't 'full of mercenaries', though it may have seemed that way in the limited time you were there.

C) The only thing that would have gotten you kicked was disappearing like you did the first time. As far as I know, no one had anything against you. You just left and then returned at a time where we didn't have room for you.


I was there for nearly 6 months, when I left it was due to falling behind on school work and a girlfriend. I wasn't even planning on returning to raiding until I saw legitimate's raid recruitment thread. I did know one thing though, Doom wasn't the right fit for me as an individual and Legitimate had something different.

The people were not the problem, but above all loa, shunjal, and pravox are the only people I really talked with and there lied the problem. Think about it this way. You say you knew every member of your guild in the past year? I'll take that, but instead describe each member and one hobby that each does beyond WOW. That may not seem like a huge difference, but it is the difference between knowing someone's name and knowing someone. Legitimate actually can tell when each member is having a bad day just on how they sound on vent.

At the end of the day, the only thing I thought was wrong with Doom was that you guys were too serious, but that is your selling point. You guys were a great guild, but as I mentioned there was no one you could connect with leaving the only motivation for showing up to raids (for me) was a sense of honor that I owed Shunjal for taking me on. I am still grateful that he allowed me to raid with him and that he took my departure the same way. Still I think it needed to be said, because if you are like me, it took me 5 guilds to realize that I had guild hoped so many times and didn't have a single friend to show for it. If epics and being server first are the only motivation, then what is the point of friends? Guilds? Community? It's all relative and someone is always going to be better then the other.

I left Doom because I couldn't find community, I know this experience was different for you because you were always talking with someone in the pvp channel after raid. If you were lucky, your name might be mentioned in vent. Otherwise, most of your raiders were shadows. I am telling you this from my prospective because I know I am not the only one that felt this way. Which is also why not even 10 mans worked out.

I didn't write this to make fun of doom, but as a warning. That if the only motivation for raiding is epics and fast boss kills, then your guild will break apart. Community is the most important aspect in a guild. Legitimate was the only one that actually finally "got it". If you do decide to start 25 mans again, I hope you heed my warning. Because I hate reruns.
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2 Goblin Rogue
0
I was there for nearly 6 months, when I left it was due to falling behind on school work and a girlfriend. I wasn't even planning on returning to raiding until I saw legitimate's raid recruitment thread. I did know one thing though, Doom wasn't the right fit for me as an individual and Legitimate had something different.


And there's nothing wrong with that. What I'm saying is, you aren't in a position to speak about the close-knitedness of Doom.


The people were not the problem, but above all loa, shunjal, and pravox are the only people I really talked with and there lied the problem. Think about it this way. You say you knew every member of your guild in the past year? I'll take that, but instead describe each member and one hobby that each does beyond WOW. That may not seem like a huge difference, but it is the difference between knowing someone's name and knowing someone. Legitimate actually can tell when each member is having a bad day just on how they sound on vent.


I could do that for the vast majority of those that were there for upwards of a year. And I can definitely tell when someones having a bad day by the sound of their voice in Vent, just like I can tell that about people in real-life. You don't even have to know someone well to be able to do that.


At the end of the day, the only thing I thought was wrong with Doom was that you guys were too serious, but that is your selling point. You guys were a great guild, but as I mentioned there was no one you could connect with leaving the only motivation for showing up to raids (for me) was a sense of honor that I owed Shunjal for taking me on.


When it comes to socializing you get out what you put in. You said you only talked to a handful of people, well maybe therein lies your problem. I think anyone thats ever raided with Doom, you included, can acknowledge that vent isn't just used for mechanics. People were constantly chatting about their days, their hobbies, and pretty much anything in it.


I am still grateful that he allowed me to raid with him and that he took my departure the same way. Still I think it needed to be said, because if you are like me, it took me 5 guilds to realize that I had guild hoped so many times and didn't have a single friend to show for it. If epics and being server first are the only motivation, then what is the point of friends? Guilds? Community? It's all relative and someone is always going to be better then the other.


The fallacy here is that 'epics and server first' isn't what Doom was even about when you were there. I don't know why people keep going back to that argument about Doom. If that were the case, we'd have still been raiding far more days a week, no?
It *was* about the community, you just weren't a fit for it. There's nothing wrong with that at all, but don't paint pictures that aren't there.


I left Doom because I couldn't find community, I know this experience was different for you because you were always talking with someone in the pvp channel after raid. If you were lucky, your name might be mentioned in vent. Otherwise, most of your raiders were shadows. I am telling you this from my prospective because I know I am not the only one that felt this way. Which is also why not even 10 mans worked out.


Doom didn't have a pvp channel. I would have been talking in guild chat. ;)
You really don't seem to understand the situation on 10 mans. It wasn't a matter of them working or not working out. When we were no longer able to do 25s, we downsized to 10 temporarily while figuring out what everyones plans were. It was never intended to 'last' or 'work out,' because there were more than 10 people that wanted to raid.


I didn't write this to make fun of doom, but as a warning. That if the only motivation for raiding is epics and fast boss kills, then your guild will break apart.


And that's fine and well, but *that's not what Doom was about.* And it's not like Doom was a short-lived flash-in-the-pan or something...it lasted as long as it did as a raiding guild *because* it did have community. It wasn't just about 'epics and fast boss kills', and saying it was is just completely dismissive of the friendships many members had and still have.


Community is the most important aspect in a guild. Legitimate was the only one that actually finally "got it". If you do decide to start 25 mans again, I hope you heed my warning. Because I hate reruns.


Correction: Legitimate was the only one that finally "got it" in regards to you. That's fine that they're a good match for you, but again, it's very dismissive to think that they're the only guild thats members are close.
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2 Goblin Priest
0
See what happens when you guys troll...
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85 Blood Elf Paladin
0
Leitka when your own members get on alts to talk crap about other members....then the community sucks. There is NOTHING you can say that changes that, it is simple fact.

When Brillak apped, I had multiple people from your guild tell me 1. He died in fires 2. He only cared about loot 3. He was always on the bottom of DPS meters. All of these couldn't be further from the truth. Hell Pravox called him a loot !@#$% in this very thread.

It's the same crap that ALWAYS happens when a Doom member leaves. There might have been a community between 10ish people in Doom, but that's it. Those bonds of community were not strong enough to endure bad content. This again is fact. If Brillak says vent was empty but for a few, then it is him I will be believing, as my sense of trust with you basically doesn't exist.

This has been a brutal xpac for raiding 25 mans. However instead of putting your head down and just doing it as a guild, your people stopped logging in. They WoW quit. They got kicked. These are again, all true. You yourself have admitted this. If I can keep a healthy group 6 and 7 on this backwater server, then Doom could have as well. Their name goes much further then ours. That is how you endure bad content. You recruit. Shunjal didn't. Or at least didn't in the numbers he needed to so that that he could field a raid. Doom played for the content, this is what the events say. If Doom played to just play together, then raids would still be happening, even 10 mans.

You yourself might have been tight knit with people in Doom, but all 25+ of you? Not a chance. If your group sense was so strong, you would still be raiding. That is what the difference is between us, and what epeeners like you will never understand. There is a hellava lot more to this game then numbers. If you have numbers but no social aspects for the ENTIRE guild, then the guild will not survive bad numbers.

Also

My transmog set > Your transmog set

Just sayin'
Edited by Alshar on 12/2/2011 2:48 PM PST
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90 Goblin Hunter
14445
12/02/2011 11:29 AMPosted by Brillak
Legitimate actually can tell when each member is having a bad day just on how they sound on vent.


Even me?!

Looks like I have to work on my depressed monotone voice a bit before next week's raid.
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85 Tauren Druid
11915
edit for kindness
Edited by Pravox on 12/3/2011 9:44 AM PST
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85 Blood Elf Paladin
0
Wow I can't find the post anymore. Oh hay look, Pravox edited a bunch of his posts within 10 minutes of each other. Maybe after Brillak posted, you changed your story? Who knows, doesn't matter. I mention Brillak because he is the key witness testifying against all your lies and exaggerations. You're a drama queen, currently trying to bust up another guild on an alt. Wanna talk about that? Care to comment?

You obviously seem to have this impression that I hate your guild. Being critical=/=hate. You ain't Jesus, you can step off the cross now. Every post you make is indicative to how bad the community in your guild actually was. You're angry and filled with rage. I ain't sayin you mad brah, I'm saying I understand why Doom couldn't make it through bad content. With people like you to share the guild tag with, who wants to deal with a bad design?
Edited by Alshar on 12/2/2011 3:29 PM PST
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85 Tauren Druid
11915
That is as I originally typed it including typos. You can go back and look at the timestamp.

I am sorry about the issues you are having, Get well soon.
Edited by Pravox on 12/2/2011 3:29 PM PST
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100 Pandaren Priest
17225
Well I've said my peace, I hold no ill will against Doom even IF they did say that. But I allow the facts to speak for themselves. I doubt you could find two people on this server or any of the others that could claim I live for loot. Even in yours I rarely took an item that I thought another person needed/wanted. Though you could call me terrible.... >.> because I do suck XD

In any case, my message was about community is vital to a guild. That was it. If Doom truly had the community then why would people leave or stop logging on? You were far from being terrible, you were ahead of us. So why did Legitimate members stay while Doom's left? If I was a liar wouldn't that have been reversed? I'm just trying to get you guys to think about this concept.

Lastly, I joined as a substitute to Legitimate when I ended my 2 month break. There were a few days when someone didn't log on where I would be asked to come in. Otherwise, I did my own stuff and my plan was not to return to raiding, but I am a sucker for helping people out.

Once again, I don't think Doom was terrible, but it wasn't the right fit for me and I fear are going to repeat the same mistake again. You guys didn't have a community. Otherwise, I might have stayed
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2 Goblin Rogue
0
Leitka when your own members get on alts to talk crap about other members....then the community sucks. There is NOTHING you can say that changes that, it is simple fact.

When Brillak apped, I had multiple people from your guild tell me 1. He died in fires 2. He only cared about loot 3. He was always on the bottom of DPS meters. All of these couldn't be further from the truth. Hell Pravox called him a loot !@#$% in this very thread.

It's the same crap that ALWAYS happens when a Doom member leaves. There might have been a community between 10ish people in Doom, but that's it. Those bonds of community were not strong enough to endure bad content. This again is fact. If Brillak says vent was empty but for a few, then it is him I will be believing, as my sense of trust with you basically doesn't exist.

This has been a brutal xpac for raiding 25 mans. However instead of putting your head down and just doing it as a guild, your people stopped logging in. They WoW quit. They got kicked. These are again, all true. You yourself have admitted this. If I can keep a healthy group 6 and 7 on this backwater server, then Doom could have as well. Their name goes much further then ours. That is how you endure bad content. You recruit. Shunjal didn't. Or at least didn't in the numbers he needed to so that that he could field a raid. Doom played for the content, this is what the events say. If Doom played to just play together, then raids would still be happening, even 10 mans.

You yourself might have been tight knit with people in Doom, but all 25+ of you? Not a chance. If your group sense was so strong, you would still be raiding. That is what the difference is between us, and what epeeners like you will never understand. There is a hellava lot more to this game then numbers. If you have numbers but no social aspects for the ENTIRE guild, then the guild will not survive bad numbers.

Also

My transmog set > Your transmog set

Just sayin'


You are really, really dense.
If people *don't want to play a video game anymore,* how is the decision to stop an indication of failure? Doom could have easily fronted two 10 mans if that had been the desire; but it wasn't. Think of it as retiring a jersey.

Also, should I point out that you once applied to Doom, the guild which you now have so much ire for? ;D

No one said anything bad about Brillak at all in this thread. What people may or may not have whispered you I don't know, but you keep 'referencing' things we've said about you in this thread that were never even said. Like how you keep going back to thinking that I'm 'talking bad' about your precious guild, when in reality I don't mind Legitimate and only have a problem with the chain smoking piece of trash that leads it. I wouldn't have such strong opinions against you if you didn't showcase the same remarkable ability to paint and pursue red herrings at *every single turn.*

Once again, there's a reason no ones really 'defending' your statements except for your little pet Gulmen. Even members from your own guild aren't outright agreeing or disagreeing with you, they're just...posting about other things. Because they're sensible people, and they can probably tell when you've made a fool of yourself.
Edited by Leitka on 12/2/2011 4:31 PM PST
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2 Goblin Rogue
0
You guys didn't have a community. Otherwise, I might have stayed


We did. You just weren't around long enough to really be pulled into it. You may have been a guild member for 6 months, but you weren't raiding with us for 6 months. Had you been around longer you'd have realized that a lot of Doom members do things with each other outside of WoW; because there *is* a sense of community. Doom is a group of mostly likeminded gamers and friends, not just a 'guild of mercs.'
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2 Goblin Rogue
0


Might want to reread the name of who you're quoting. ;)


I was talking to the real Leitka not your fake wannabe self. Diaf faker.


I'm not sure if you're aware of this but I was looking through your armory and I saw something that really threw me off. It's nothing major and it won't cause you to wipe or anything, I think, but you might want to fix it because it could be a really big problem eventually, and I wouldn't want to see your performance hurt by it. You seem like a decent person but it's just really hard to not point it out.






























There's a moon on your forehead.
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85 Blood Elf Paladin
0
You're way too angry. Obviously keeping cool in a debate is not your forte.

My application to Doom previous to Legitimate is no secret. It's something that's been discussed and brought up by me. You wouldn't have even known had I not brought it up. Who cares? I talked to Shunjal, and I talked to Gulthok. I chose Legitimate. Looks like I made the right choice. You have this complex that I hate you or your former guild tag. Why would I hate either? Both supply entertainment up to a point before they become broken records.

Honestly, wanna know what makes my side of the argument stronger? I answer almost every query or counter point. You guys just glance over crap and repeat the same tag lines used from Doom since TBH. I like to argue, even when I am wrong. It's fun, and it is how you learn. I'm sorry this irritates you, but don't expect my viewpoint on the matter to change anytime soon.
Edited by Alshar on 12/2/2011 4:40 PM PST
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85 Goblin Death Knight
0
Alshar I have no real beef with you, in fact when I've talked to you in game I got along with you quite well, but you are flying off the handle and are completely wrong about this. Also Brillak; I don't really know you, but even here you seem like an alright guy; You are however wrong. Doom wasn't a fit for you, but it was for many. Doom was around for longer than most people on Dalaran have even been playing WoW (much longer) and not without reason. It wasn't a perfect guild nor was it the right place for many (as even you felt Brillak), but it was a place some of us called home in this game.

Was the guild perfect? Heh, far from it. People had problems, people talked !@#$, but not a single guild can claim otherwise about their own and I know that for an absolute fact. How? Because I talked to almost everyone while I was still playing the game, and still do talk to many of my former guildmates and outside of the game amongst many others still on or formerly on Dalaran. No guild is innocent of inner guild smack talk that leaks to the outside, the difference with Doom is we usually became aware of it soon after. Hell, I talked %^-* about a few I had a dislike for after I left as well, but the majority I thought of as my family and friends (even if I was mean as hell!).

When I quit, I could have joined almost anyone if I wanted to yet I opted to quit completely. Seemed like a good time to, but mostly it was because I didn't want to go anywhere after Doom. If I was leaving Doom I was leaving the game, and the was always my word. That was my loyalty and respect to friends. It was them or nothing. That is just an example of the strength in bonds many members that did find the right fit into the community had. Doom had a community and was very close knit, but it wasn't your cup of tea and that's perfectly alright.

There are various reasons for the fall of the guild, but lack of community and friendship is not on that list, I can guarantee you that. I think people get the Doom of vanilla WoW really mixed up with the Doom of the last like 4 years because that's what they want to remember. It is not the same thing.
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