I will never go back to normal raiding again.

100 Human Paladin
14185

Why do the two things have to be mutually exclusive? You guys use the "lack of resources" excuse a lot, considering you're the number one MMO on the market and have been for the better part of a decade. :\


They're programming a game, not digging a ditch. Adding more people doesn't make every job quicker. Sometimes it's even counterproductive. I refer you to the old adage about the negative repercussions of an abundance of chefs on the quality of the soup.
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20 Orc Warlock
160
Glad to see that after years of bad players complaining that they can do the end game content Blizzard finally gives them the ability to do the content.

Honestly though, the LFR is a joke. Pretty much stand there and dps a fight. No thought, no real strategy, gear, or knowledge of your class to do it. Just Q up and blizzard hands you loot with no real effort on your part (aside from having to mash your head against the keyboard). The truly funny part about this is that people here seem to think like they did something monumental here in the DS raid. Beating content that is sooooooooooo nerfed that a blind man could do it is not something I would be happy about, or even talk about, and to those that think the LFR is hard.Any type of game that you play is supposed to offer challenge, and when you beat it you have a sense of accomplishment for doing something hard. Well all I can say is Grand theft auto with cheats included is calling you if you want no challenge what so ever in a game.

Again though I am glad that blizzard caved in again (no surprise there) and decided to give people welfare raids and epics again.

Oh and before I forget, in the kungfu panda expac, are the new LFRs going to just consist of chests sitting in a nice neat row that just throw free loot at people? Minus the bosses of course, cant have things like bosses getting in the way of people getting there welfare check.... I mean epics.

I agree with this sexy Worgen. LFR is a joke. 4.3 is a joke. It's Wotlk all over again.


I haven't done end game raiding so I have to ask, are you required to use the LFR function? If not, how does people with a different play style then yours using this function affect your enjoyment of the game? Why can't you play your way and they play their way?
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86 Human Paladin
4940
Raiders say what you want, I have 4 old friends who used to play this game that are interested in coming back because of LFR and transmog. Blizzard played their cards right.
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85 Goblin Mage
5825
Hell,

Even regular raiding seems like LFR
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I Really look forward to the LFR, as soon as i can get there :)

Which actually leaves me with the question: Are there any plans to make Classic Raid Finder? Maybe with some adjustments here and there, but it would be great to also raid the classics while leveling :D instead of getting lvl 85 and roflstomp earlier content (which is kinda boring :( )

Abouit the number of bosses... god, please, not only make more (12 is good) bosses for at least the climax raid of the expansion, but please also add some more background for some bosses :D

I mean, I am a big fan of Professor Putricide, but it seems his first and last appearance was in ICC, no questlines relating to them and no backstory other than a little introduction somewhere :(

Time to go back to lvl and get ready for Raid Finder! :)
Edited by Taniara on 12/8/2011 1:07 AM PST
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90 Dwarf Paladin
13780
[quote]This is absolutely the attitude and language that, in this community, needs to go sit in the corner for a while. If you can't stand the thought of there being multiple difficulty tiers of content -- into which we pour a lot of our development efforts -- to make raiding feasible for more than 2% of players, hit Heroic mode, turn on vent, and repeatedly remind your friends how good you are. I have no doubt they care. :)


Yes, they probably do care. And at one time, so did the developers of this game. At least, the ones who originally created it. I can't say much for the group of developers that came in afterwards and have been running the game since the original crew left.

So, this is where we've come? We're now catering to the casuals so fiercely that it's the dedicated raiders who carried World of Warcraft through 3 expansions are now the ones on the receiving end of the developers' mocking? Oh how times have changed.

I think it's great that people are enjoying the new feature. But let's not kid ourselves - LFR isn't raiding. It's a tour bus through the content. Raiding is a challenge. It is supposed to be a challenge. For something to be a challenge, there has to be a realistic chance of failure if you don't try. LFR has none of these features. It looks like a raid, and it takes place in the same place as the raid, but it's like one of those Old West Cowboy sets; pull back the curtain and there's nothing there but facades.

Yes, more people can attend LFR than can commit the time to actually raid. Is that supposed to be good? What is wrong with expecting there to be some degree of effort and dedication that a player is willing to undertake in order to gain entry? You can decry how unavailable raiding was to the majority of the population in Vanilla or in BC, but it meant something to raid at that time. Completing a raid was something special, it generated a sense of awe in the gaming community, and it inspired people to push themselves. I know. I was there. I remember the first time my toon's digitally pixelated eyes widened at the sight of a paladin in full Judgement. I remember it like it was yesterday; There were two players, standing just outside the gates of Ironforge. I didn't even know that kind of armor existed - but I knew then and there that I wanted to start raiding.

This is just whitewashing it. This is telling people they don't have to do anything to "raid". How much easier can you make it? First you reduced raid sizes from 40 to 25, and then to 10 (10!). Attunements? Gone. The need to progress through raid content? Well, that's just cruel. Long, magnificent raids filled with lore and awe-inspiring architecture? Nah, let's cut it to five and just do it in an arena. Then came the weekly raid-wide buffs, to "help" players along even more. And now? Show up with any other 24 people and bang Deathwing with a sitck and you too can be a raider! Honestly, the next phase will undoubtedly be watch a video of the fight and then pick up your loot at the nearest mailbox.

And what is perhaps most astonishing is that although you blues constantly remind us whenever we point out a quality issue in the game that "development resources are scarce" and that you have to "carefully choose where to devote those resources" you brag - BRAG! - about pouring "significant development resources" into creating a kiddy pool version of existing raids. Here's an idea - how about if you re-allocate those resources to making the main raids truly epic again? That way, maybe we won't have to fight bosses who've just recovered from a "setback" in places we've all seen before.

Celebrate it all you want. It's the next step toward the cliff that we all know the game is steadily rolling toward. But for those of you that want to call me an elitist snob or whatever else, consider this: the developers seem to be stuck with the notion that WoW is hemmoraging players because the game is too hard. Get it straight - they are fleeing the game because you've made it so easy that it gets boring in weeks. I'm just afraid it will be too late before you come to realize that.
Edited by Aranyszin on 12/8/2011 1:11 AM PST
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90 Dwarf Paladin
14335
12/08/2011 12:57 AMPosted by Reboshua
This is absolutely the attitude and language that, in this community, needs to go sit in the corner for a while.


While I might have softened the original poster's language a little, I think dismissing the sentiment so quickly is equally worthy of some time in the corner.

I've been playing the game since 2004 in a very casual guild, but by and large we've managed to log our one night a week of 3-hour raid time. I think the reasons most of us have hung around this long are:

1. We enjoy each other's company
2. We love the challenge of trying to "beat" the content
3. We like trying to improve the play of our characters
4. We geek out on the lore - we're dorky that way

The three most thrilling moments in the game for me:

A. My first flight from the Barrens to Org at level 10 - AMAZING at the time.

B. Working SO hard to beat Kael'thas in Burning Crusade - such a complex fight and finally winning after weeks and weeks of trying.

C. Downing the Lich King - most epic moment ever to see those cut scenes, felt so accomplished and so immersed in that epic story. Truly Blizz's crowning achievement in content.

*Bonus moment - I wasn't even involved in it. I had taken a couple months off from the game and one Saturday afternoon I was out at dinner with my family. Got a call in the middle of it and wondered "who the heck can that be?" It was my best friend, nearly hysterical with joy - "We downed RAGS! We downed RAGS!!" We were 35 at the time - 41 now. :) Hysterical and stupid and amazing all at the same time.

Truth is, because of the small amount of time we put in, our guild doesn't beat a lot of the end game content. Personally:

- I never beat Rags before Nefarian came out
- I never beat Illidan before Wrath came out
- We still haven't taken down Nef in Cata, nor have we gotten past 4/7 in Firelands on normal.

We don't care because the fun is in the hunt and the thrill is in the victory AFTER all of the frustration and effort. I think this is what Blizz may be miscalculating on here.

If you view pure joy in enjoying the content as an equation where happiness = reality/expectations, LFR is awful as currently implemented because everyone in LFR expects to beat the whole thing every time and god forbid you don't. The reality falls short of the expectation way more often than the old way, where our expectations of beating the end boss were so low that actually doing it was incredible.

NOW, don't misunderstand me. As a practical matter, LFR is brilliant. It only makes sense that you'd change things so that more people can see the content. From an efficiency standpoint, spending so much time developing content for 2% of the audience is madness. Check. But I agree with the original poster that you could have constructed this in such a way that the general population's ability to encounter Deathwing took much longer and made going for it in 10-mans preferable because at least you had a chance to see it with your guild before it was ever exposed in LFR.

My suggestion, with the benefit of 2-weeks hindsight, would be to have released one boss per week over 6 weeks, and then waited 4 more to release the last two encounters. Maybe change the frequency of looting to be every few days instead of once per week, etc. This way it would have taken a total of 10 weeks before people could have seen Deathwing if they only did LFR. This would have given the more serious raiding population plenty of time to beat the content, get ahead of their friends in gear, and feel super accomplished.

By week 10, many of the folks who had been struggling in their guild runs would have the benefit of at least then seeing the content, learning, and incrementally gearing up for their guild runs. Some sense of satisfaction and accomplishment, but not as good as the guild run. This satisfies everyone, hits the struggling guilds right around the time they begin to get really frustrated and gives them hope, and fun is had by all.

Long post, so thanks for reading. I suspect that more people will see the content, but value it less. If that's a trade-off Blizz is willing to make, then so be it. My intuition tells me it's a mistake to not pace it better, but I'm just one voice.

Cheers!

PS - As a bonus observation, unrelated to this, I think Blizz is making a serious error in not identifying a protagonist for Mists. From my ivory tower, it looks like an expansion built around the addition of a new race and class. As a stand alone decision, I would never purchase a game (never mind pay monthly fees) for a race and a new class. I know it will be much more than that, but right now a poor job is being done of telling an epic story to hook me for MoP.


1) the blue wasn't responding to the op, he was responding to another poster with a doom and gloom attitude.
2) they have identified the protagonist for MoP. its the horde if you're alliance, and the alliance if you're horde.

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87 Blood Elf Priest
8920
I'd just like to congratulate the OP on the Deathwing kill. It's great to see that LFR is such a success outside of the scheduled raiding community.

My guild is using LFR as a way to get acquainted with our surroundings and to get a bit of a feel for an area before we tackle it in Normal mode and soon Hard mode.

Using LFR we were able to probably avoid 5-10 wipes in normal mode just by getting a preview of some of the mechanics from the fights and develop a foundation to build a strategy on.

Cudos to everyone who has gotten a LFR Deathwing kill this week and good luck to those who are still working on it.

PS: Normal cleared! HMs next week <3
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90 Dwarf Shaman
8460
12/08/2011 01:04 AMPosted by Teranoid
Yeah because everyone loves gating right?


My suggestion was only to gate it for LFR, not normal or heroic. So, those who wanted to attack it in their guilds could see it all right away.
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85 Night Elf Death Knight
8450
Glad to see that after years of bad players complaining that they can do the end game content Blizzard finally gives them the ability to do the content.

Honestly though, the LFR is a joke. Pretty much stand there and dps a fight. No thought, no real strategy, gear, or knowledge of your class to do it. Just Q up and blizzard hands you loot with no real effort on your part (aside from having to mash your head against the keyboard). The truly funny part about this is that people here seem to think like they did something monumental here in the DS raid. Beating content that is sooooooooooo nerfed that a blind man could do it is not something I would be happy about, or even talk about, and to those that think the LFR is hard.Any type of game that you play is supposed to offer challenge, and when you beat it you have a sense of accomplishment for doing something hard. Well all I can say is Grand theft auto with cheats included is calling you if you want no challenge what so ever in a game.

Again though I am glad that blizzard caved in again (no surprise there) and decided to give people welfare raids and epics again.

Oh and before I forget, in the kungfu panda expac, are the new LFRs going to just consist of chests sitting in a nice neat row that just throw free loot at people? Minus the bosses of course, cant have things like bosses getting in the way of people getting there welfare check.... I mean epics.

I mean, from where I sit, you're downright awful. I fail to see a single accomplishment to merit such an attitude. LFR is a very welcome alternative for gearing alts and earning VP both.
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90 Dwarf Shaman
8460
they have identified the protagonist for MoP. its the horde if you're alliance, and the alliance if you're horde.


What I'm trying to say is that this is uninspiring to me personally as it's been rolled out so far. It feels like this is a PvP thing and I'm not a fan of that - FWIW.

Time to sleep - night all.
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20 Orc Warlock
160
12/08/2011 01:06 AMPosted by Aranyszin
[quote]This is absolutely the attitude and language that, in this community, needs to go sit in the corner for a while. If you can't stand the thought of there being multiple difficulty tiers of content -- into which we pour a lot of our development efforts -- to make raiding feasible for more than 2% of players, hit Heroic mode, turn on vent, and repeatedly remind your friends how good you are. I have no doubt they care. :)


Yes, they probably do care. And at one time, so did the developers of this game. At least, the ones who originally created it. I can't say much for the group of developers that came in afterwards and have been running the game since the original crew left.

So, this is where we've come? We're now catering to the casuals so fiercely that it's the dedicated raiders who carried World of Warcraft through 3 expansions are now the ones on the receiving end of the developers' mocking? Oh how times have changed.


It looked like he wasn't mocking hard core raiders so much as unrepentant douchebags.

And the casuals financed the game through three expansions that allowed the hard core raiders to play the game at all. The money generated from the hard core maybe pays for the janitorial staff at Blizzard, if that.
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85 Draenei Paladin
2225
12/08/2011 01:09 AMPosted by Reboshua
My suggestion was only to gate it for LFR, not normal or heroic. So, those who wanted to attack it in their guilds could see it all right away.
They can do that now >.>
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85 Human Mage
9295
12/07/2011 03:54 AMPosted by Tweak
The hardcore raiders have their hardcore raids... and I the average person, now have mine...


The simplest solution the whole time...

Personally, I think LFR is way too dumbed down. It turns fighting Deathwing into a complete and utter joke.

I think it is ridiculous that many people downed Deathwing in LFR before GUILDS managed to do it in normal. No, this was not the case for my guild personally, but there were many guilds on my server that had not downed Deathwing in normal during the first week.

They shouldn't have released the final content in LFR for at least a couple more weeks. It completely takes all the excitement of downing someone who's supposed to be so powerful. To have derp pugs downing Deathwing like he's cake just completely defies Deathwing being such a hardcore dragon. Grats Blizz, you made end-game content playable for retards and in the process ripped the soul out of the game.

I know all you who don't have decent guilds and don't take this game seriously will disagree, but really think about it. Just imagine in your real life you work hard to achieve something all for others to simply get it handed to them. So what if we get better gear in normal and heroic? It doesn't matter considering you clearly don't need that gear to down Deathwing anyway. The only thing us hardcore raiders have now is the sense of achievement of downing the harder content. However, the RP of the game has been ripped to shreds IMO.


QQ more? If you're playing solely for the "pride" and "satisfaction" that comes with being good at a video game, rather than the fun that comes with the challenge, then I think that's your problem. Sure, pugs have downed Deathwing with their heads up their asses, but that doesn't affect me at all. I know that when my guild reaches him on normal mode, it's going to be a challenge, it's going to be fun, and above all, it's going to be epic compared to tank n spank LFR. I don't raid for bragging rights, I raid because the fights can be challenging and the people I run with are awesome guys who make the night fun even if we spend it wiping on Morchok for god knows what reason. The LFR puggers aren't getting anything handed to them other than a chance to experience the same thing we do on a lower level. They don't get the challenge. They don't get the same pretty numbers you do. They don't get the same satisfaction as more hardcore raiders, because they just want to see the content. Why is that your problem? Do you throw a fit too when the poor kid down the street gets a used xbox after you've had yours for 5 years? Grow up.

I don't speak for myself when I say this, but excuse the hell out of everyone who, for one reason or another, can't invest the same consistent time you and I do to have fun in this game
Edited by Ahrim on 12/8/2011 1:23 AM PST
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90 Dwarf Paladin
14335
12/08/2011 01:06 AMPosted by Aranyszin
[quote]This is absolutely the attitude and language that, in this community, needs to go sit in the corner for a while. If you can't stand the thought of there being multiple difficulty tiers of content -- into which we pour a lot of our development efforts -- to make raiding feasible for more than 2% of players, hit Heroic mode, turn on vent, and repeatedly remind your friends how good you are. I have no doubt they care. :)


Yes, they probably do care. And at one time, so did the developers of this game. At least, the ones who originally created it. I can't say much for the group of developers that came in afterwards and have been running the game since the original crew left.

So, this is where we've come? We're now catering to the casuals so fiercely that it's the dedicated raiders who carried World of Warcraft through 3 expansions are now the ones on the receiving end of the developers' mocking? Oh how times have changed.

I think it's great that people are enjoying the new feature. But let's not kid ourselves - LFR isn't raiding. It's a tour bus through the content. Raiding is a challenge. It is supposed to be a challenge. For something to be a challenge, there has to be a realistic chance of failure if you don't try. LFR has none of these features. It looks like a raid, and it takes place in the same place as the raid, but it's like one of those Old West Cowboy sets; pull back the curtain and there's nothing there but facades.

Yes, more people can attend LFR than can commit the time to actually raid. Is that supposed to be good? What is wrong with expecting there to be some degree of effort and dedication that a player is willing to undertake in order to gain entry? You can decry how unavailable raiding was to the majority of the population in Vanilla or in BC, but it meant something to raid at that time. Completing a raid was something special, it generated a sense of awe in the gaming community, and it inspired people to push themselves. I know. I was there. I remember the first time my toon's digitally pixelated eyes widened at the sight of a paladin in full Judgement. I remember it like it was yesterday; There were two players, standing just outside the gates of Ironforge. I didn't even know that kind of armor existed - but I knew then and there that I wanted to start raiding.

This is just whitewashing it. This is telling people they don't have to do anything to "raid". How much easier can you make it? First you reduced raid sizes from 40 to 25, and then to 10 (10!). Attunements? Gone. The need to progress through raid content? Well, that's just cruel. Long, magnificent raids filled with lore and awe-inspiring architecture? Nah, let's cut it to five and just do it in an arena. Then came the weekly raid-wide buffs, to "help" players along even more. And now? Show up with any other 24 people and bang Deathwing with a sitck and you too can be a raider! Honestly, the next phase will undoubtedly be watch a video of the fight and then pick up your loot at the nearest mailbox.

Celebrate it all you want. It's the next step toward the cliff that we all know the game is steadily rolling toward. But for those of you that want to call me an elitist snob or whatever else, consider this: the developers seem to be stuck with the notion that WoW is hemmoraging players because the game is too hard. Get it straight - they are fleeing the game because you've made it so easy that it gets boring in weeks. I'm just afraid it will be too late before you come to realize that.


1) I would really love to know how you know the same developers aren't still working at blizz? this isn't the kind of imformation they release.

2) You're right its a tour bus, so freaking what. They said they wanted to see content, they did not say they wanted the challenge.

3) The LFR in no way impedes so called hardcores from doing their hardcore thing, you can still hang the titles, mounts, etc over the heads of the rest of the community, belittle them and call them baddies. Your shinies are still your shinies and even shinier. Unless you get satisfaction from belittling others, this in no way hampers your gaming as it has been.

4) It's a freaking game, not school, a job, or a career. One should not have to put equal effort into it as they would one of the above. WoW has always been a joke when it comes to hardcore gaming though. FFXI called, they're still lol'ing at wow players for not havng a boss that takes 24 hours to kill.
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85 Night Elf Hunter
3805
12/07/2011 06:41 PMPosted by Txtairintxt
to make raiding feasible for more than 2% of players, hit Heroic mode, turn on vent, and repeatedly remind your friends how good you are. I have no doubt they care. :)





Makes we wish we still had signatures at bottom.
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85 Blood Elf Priest
1285
Honestly, I am SO happy I may have the opportunity to finally actually SEE some of the content I've never been able to before. Much <3 Blizzard.
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