[Guide] Combat PvE 4.3

90 Goblin Rogue
8455
Hi, Billy Mays here with an awesome new product! The
How to own your groups meters!

What you'll need is a basic understanding of how your rotation works, how to talent, and proper stat weights! But don't worry, everything comes with a manual, and a lifetime guarantee of owning the #1 spot on your groups meters!

Alright, lets get down to business. I'm sure we're all tired of seeing the posts "When do I do this" or "Revealing Strike should be used when *Insert timeframe here*". So I pulled together all the information I could, and will try to create a general knowledge base for Combat PvE.

Terminology:
RvS = Revealing Strike
KS = Killing Spree
AR = Adrenaline Rush
BF = Blade Flurry
SS = Sinister Strike
DI = Deep Insight
PPH = Procs Per Hit
RB = Restless Blades

Will add more terminology if needed.

Weapons and Poisons
"This is my gun. There are many like it, but this one is mine."

Combat rogues utilize the use of a Slow (2.6 speed) Sword/Axe/Fist Weapon/Mace in their Main Hand, while using a quick (1.4 speed) weapon in their Off Hand. Why is it that Combat rogues are the only rogues that don't use daggers in both hands? Well, it's simple. Our primary attack "Sinister Strike" does damage based off our MH damage, and slow weapons deal the best high-end damage compared to faster ones. So then why do we still use a fast weapon in our offhand? That's because of our talents, specifically, Combat Potency. It makes our successful Off-Hand attacks regen energy. Also, Deadly Poison procs based off of a Procs Per Hit (PPH) mechanic. This means that the more attacks made with the weapon, the more times the poison will proc. Because of this, we still want a fast offhand, always. Using a slow offhand is ALWAYS a DPS loss. Always.

For the legendary daggers, all stages of them can work with Combat spec. However, the Deathwing axe beats out the Mainhand dagger up until the final stage. Here is how the axe and MH dagger stack up against each other:
Legendary > Heroic Mode Axe > Regular Mode Axe > Sleeper > LFR Axe > Fear
The offhand dagger is BIS for all stages, unless you have the Heroic Mode dagger from Hagara, which will beat out Vengeance.

Poisons:
For boss fights, Instant Mainhand, Deadly Offhand, Wound Thrown. For trash, it CAN be a DPS increase to use Wound on both the MH and OH instead of Instant/Deadly, but I wouldn't really bother with it. You don't need a poison on your throwing weapon all the time, as Blade Flurry is used in place of Fan of Knives for Combat 99% of the time.
Edited by Backstabi on 4/18/2012 11:44 AM PDT
Reply Quote
90 Goblin Rogue
8455
Talents & Glyphs
"It's not what you have, it's what you do with it (and you better do it right...)."

While there are minor variations, all combat rogues use 7/31/3 for their talents. The variation appears when looking at the 7 points in Assassination, and 4 points in Combat. All combat rogues use the Assassination talents of...


  • Coup De Grace
  • Lethality
  • Ruthlessness

However, as you change your gear, so to do these 7 points. Possible combinations & what they are for:


This is used for a rupture-less rotation. More on this in the Rotation section.


The standard for a rupture rotation.


    http://us.battle.net/wow/en/tool/talent-calculator#cc01!YQ!SkYYdYgekd!aj!acfjQK
  • 3/3 Coup De Grace
  • 3/3 Lethality
  • 1/3 Ruthlessness

Another rupture-less talent set. This is better for those in low-end gear.

There are 4 your-choice talent points in the Combat tree. I prefer Improved Recup and Blade Twisting. The choices are as follows...

  • Improved Recuperate
  • Healer mana is going to be much more tight in Cata than it was in WotLK. These two talent points increase the healing of your Recuperate by a third and reduces your damage intake by 6% while you have an active Recuperate. Despite possessing several abilities that allow you to avoid and/or reduce damage (CR, Feint, CoS, etc), this talent will help on healing intensive encounters and overall increase your survivability.

  • Improved Sprint
  • Encounters that included snares and/or roots are few and far between however; this talent in such an encounter would be quite useful given Sprint's short cooldown (even shorter when considering RB).

  • Blade Twisting
  • This is Combat's version of a slow, this is of course going to be useful on an encounter were one is needed and completely useless otherwise (bosses generally cannot be slowed). The reduction in speed and duration are identical to crippling poison.

  • Reinforced Leather
  • Doubling your armor from leather gives roughly 8.5% more damage reduction to physical attacks. It is very rare for rogues to take direct physical attacks in encounters because one, rogues come with several threat management abilities (Vanish, TotT, and Feint) and two, have a high dodge rate and tend to rely on that during mishaps. Overall, this is a poor talent for a raiding Combat rogue to spec into.

  • Throwing Specialization
  • Another relatively weak talent, the increased range on your Throw and Deadly Throw will generally be useless since rogues deal nearly no damage outside of melee range. The extra interrupt can certainly be useful in some cases however, two melee classes picked up 10 second CD interrupts in Cata and a third can now provide it without sacrificing DPS. Further, Arcane mages and Fury warriors are able to deal increased damage after successful interrupts and rogues will likely find themselves as backup interrupters for encounters requiring them.

  • Improved Kick
  • For similar reasons as Throwing Specialization coupled with that most bosses cannot be silenced, Improved Kick is relatively useless in a raid environment.

  • Improved Gouge
  • Most bosses cannot be incapacitated by players which makes Gouge nearly useless. In the case of adds, without the glyph, rogues will have to deal with parries to successfully land a Gouge and several other classes provide much more reliable ways to handle adds (Hammer of Justice, Chains of Ice, Shadowfury, Frost Trap, Frost Nova, etc).

    Glyphs are fairly simple. You will want...

    Prime:

    • Adrenaline Rush
    • Slice and Dice
    • Sinister Strike

    Major:

    • Tricks of the Trade
    • Blade Flurry
    • Feint

    Minor:

    • All your choice
    Edited by Backstabi on 4/18/2012 11:55 AM PDT
    Reply Quote
    90 Goblin Rogue
    8455
    Rotation
    "Ambush, Backstab, Sinister Strike, Eviscerate! (Is what you DON'T DO!)"

    For the most part, your rotation will follow:
    Sinister Strike to 1/2/3 CP's > SnD* > Sinister strike to 4 CPs > Revealing Strike** > Rupture*** / Eviscerate

    SnD MUST BE KEPT UP AT ALL TIMES. If it is close to falling off, use whatever CP you have available and refresh it.

    *Anywhere from 1-3 CP's is the preferable range to use SnD. This is because the amount of time you gain per CP drops drastically after the 3rd CP. By all means, if SnD has 1 second left and you're at 4 CP's, go ahead and use them on SnD. But if you can in any way avoid using too many CP's on SnD, it'll be to your benefit.

    **If glyph of sinister strike procs and you are at 5 CP before getting off RvS, skip this step and move into the finishing move.

    ***Rupture is only a DPS gain if you group has a bleed debuff available, and if you're specced into the rupture talent set. It also has some very specific rules of usage:
    • Not under haste effects
    • Not in maximum Bandits Guile (Deep Insight)
    • Not using Blade Flurry
    • Not using Adrenaline Rush


    "But what about my stealth abilities!"
    Basically? They suck for combat. If you really want to stealth, put Sinister Strike on your stealth bars and use it for an opener.

    Cooldowns. The meat and cheese of Combat. While some people prefer using them at different times, the general rule of thumb is to use them on cooldown. However, Never use Killing Spree while under the affects of Adrenaline Rush, or while at maximum energy. Also, unless it means you'll lose another use of Adrenaline Rush in the fight, don't use AR while under Time Warp/Bloodlust/Heroism. Be sure to only use AR when KS is on CD. This makes RB work on both of their CD's, increasing its effectiveness.

    Blade Flurry is a little different. It's used to cleave a second target when there are additional targets next to your primary target. While under the effect of Blade Flurry, never use Rupture, always use Eviscerate as your damaging finisher. Be sure to watch for potential moments to use BF, and be sure to turn it off when only 1 mob is left, or when they get too separated for BF to hit.

    Redirect can be used not only to transfer your CP to a new target, but it also allows for the continuation of building the stacks of Bandits Guile, without having to start over at 10%. Don't be afraid to use it when you have to switch targets, due to Restless Blades it should almost always be off CD when you need it.
    Edited by Backstabi on 4/30/2012 3:22 PM PDT
    Reply Quote
    90 Goblin Rogue
    8455
    Stat Weights, Reforging, and Enchants/Gems
    "Sorry, got no quote for this"

    Combat rogues, while having slight variation from person to person, has the generic stat weights of
    8% Hit > 26/26 Expertise > Haste > Excess hit (up to 17%) > Mastery > Crit


    *My napkin math suggests that if you have any stage of the legendary daggers, your stat weights may look more like
    8% Hit > 26/26 Expertise > Haste > Hit up to 12% / Mastery > Excess Hit > Crit
    It is napkin math, though.


    Reforging allows you to take 40% of an unwanted stat (Mastery or Crit) and add it into a more beneficial stat (8% hit, Expertise, Haste)

    I'm not going to divulge too greatly into this, as there is a quick and easy way to see how you should reforge.

    http://shadowcraft.mmo-mumble.com


    Simply enter in your characters name and realm, select which area you are in (US, EU, etc...), and it will tell you the proper way to reforge. I would recommend using the addon Reforgerade, as it allows you to click the button "Export Reforges", copy/paste, and it'll automatically reforge for you.

    Enchants are bonuses added onto your gear for extra stats. Shadowcraft can show you the optimal enchants as well, but since it's not the best UI to look at for enchants, I'll put down the optimal ones here.



    Gemming works simular to Enchanting in that it gives you extra stats. In general, you want +Agility (Red, Delicate prefix) gems in every socket. If the socket bonus for an item is +20 agility or more, fill blue sockets with +Agi/Hit gems (Purple, Glinting prefix) and yellow sockets with +Agi/Haste (Orange, Deft prefix) gems.
    Edited by Backstabi on 12/14/2011 9:35 AM PST
    Reply Quote
    90 Goblin Rogue
    8455
    Extra Resources

    shadowcraft.mmo-mumble.com
  • Gear rankings, DPS Simulation, talent calculator, reforge/enchant/gem optimizer, all in one!
  • elitistjerks.com/f78/t111329-combat_guide_cata_12_01_2011_a/
  • Elitist Jerks guide for combat. Be warned, lots of excess info that can cause momentary mental overload.
  • http://us.battle.net/wow/en/forum/topic/2369743517
  • Ceara's big !@# list of lists of stuff.
  • http://us.battle.net/wow/en/forum/topic/2112091868
  • Rfeann's even bigger list of lists of even more stuffs, that may lead to even more lists.
  • Edited by Backstabi on 12/12/2011 12:20 PM PST
    Reply Quote
    90 Goblin Rogue
    8455
    Burrito.
    Reply Quote
    85 Blood Elf Rogue
    2150
    http://elitistjerks.com/f78/t111329-combat_guide_cata_12_01_2011_a/
    Reply Quote
    90 Goblin Rogue
    8455
    Aye, it's a good one, but has a lot of information. A little to much for me, at least.

    I'm trying to write it out in a way that can be glanced at, understood, and still used successfully, without having to create an eyesore that has to be "read" by the user to get the whole message.
    Reply Quote
    86 Blood Elf Rogue
    9960
    12/11/2011 05:08 AMPosted by Backstabi
    Sinister Strike to 2/3>SnD>Sinister strike to 4>Revealing Strike*>Rupture**/Eviscerate


    SnD should be used as much as possible at 1 combo point, especially at the beginning of the fight.

    12/11/2011 05:08 AMPosted by Backstabi
    the general rule of thumb is to use AR on cooldown, and only use Killing Spree at maximum Bandits Guile stacks.


    While this sounds fine, in practice and every time I have simmed with shadowcraft using killing spree on cd provides higher dps. Of course, like anything you have to be smart about it.

    A great opener that I have been practicing goes SS>SnD>SS up to 4 or 5 combo points>KS>RS and Evis or Evis>AR
    What this does is put KS on cd fast, and allows your AR to be up through the entirety of shallow insight and deep insight. Not Evis'ing until after the KS takes 10 sec away from its cooldown. It also seems to line up very nicely at least through the first few cycles where they come off cooldown.

    12/11/2011 05:08 AMPosted by Backstabi
    Blade Flurry is a little different. It's used for when there are more than 2 enemies.


    2 enemies close together is the ideal situation for Blade Flurry. More than 2 enemies really doesn't do anything for Blade Flurry.
    Reply Quote
    90 Goblin Rogue
    8455
    12/11/2011 06:34 AMPosted by Havan
    SnD should be used as much as possible at 1 combo point, especially at the beginning of the fight.

    Eh, I've had slightly higher numbers doing 2-3's. But I'm also a bit of a clipper when it come to SnD (I use it when there's still about 5 seconds remaining or so), so I like to have the extra time to bash SS and Evisc.


    2 enemies close together is the ideal situation for Blade Flurry. More than 2 enemies really doesn't do anything for Blade Flurry.

    Adding two words really can change the meaning of a statement eh? Fixed it, thanks for pointing it out.
    Reply Quote
    90 Blood Elf Rogue
    Vex
    9280
    Major:

    Tricks of the Trade
    Blade Flurry
    Your choice, but preferably Feint
    Feint isn't an option. Removing the energy cost has a direct impact on DPS.
    Reply Quote
    •3/3 Coup De Grace
    •2/3 Lethality
    •2/3 Ruthlessness

    This is used for a rupture-less rotation. More on this in the Rotation section



    I was trying that last week and I don't think its worth it with the t1-t3 I did simple math and I was still doing more damage with my sinister strikes then my eviserate. tho this was just on the target dummys but the diffrence was still quite noticable.

    I imagine with the Axe off madness its better but im not convinced with the daggers

    and yeah feint glyph = op
    Reply Quote
    90 Goblin Rogue
    8455
    I've learned to not trust target dummy DPS. It's just not even remotely accurate.
    Reply Quote
    yeah I dont disagree but the numbers by % were so far apart even when speced for eviserate it still did less damage then SS
    Reply Quote
    90 Dwarf Rogue
    12470
    Managing BF and Energy is key with Combats. I always get pissed at my self when I notice I had BF turned off after a mob encounter.

    I start off my encounters stealthed because ambush or cheapshot gives me two CPs right from the start to use on SnD. I know cheapshot is no dps but sometimes I'll use it on a caster who is the primary target and it gives the tank and heals a slight break in damage at the beginning of a mob fight. Also, it's not really a dps loss because I haven't began to dps yet:)

    I also use RS near the beginning of my rotations because I don't want to worry about squeezing it in before an enemy dies on me. Anyone ever have a mob encounter where your BF is up, the mob is taking huge damage from you but your target is about to die and you got to throw down your eviscerate ASAP and than you realize you haven't used RS yet? Thats why I use it near the beginning of my rotation, usually 2nd CP for me.

    I don't really hold to the whole "use KS when BG is at 30%." Of course I understand the reason and I do do it when I can but sometimes it's better to use KS early so you can use it again at the end when it comes off CD again. If you wait until you have 30% BG, you may only get one KS in on the fight. Now with a Raid Boss, the fight will take long enough where you can better time KS with BG. I also try to use KS when my energy is low. That way by the time KS is done my energy has regenerated back to full.

    A TotT macro is a must. With all the damage you're putting on a mob, the threat needs to be redirected. A focus macro is easiest, just don't forget to set it at the beginning:)

    I like using AR early too. The more enemies around with BF active the better reason to use AR and watch your meter explode!










    Reply Quote
    90 Goblin Rogue
    8455
    I start off my encounters stealthed because ambush or cheapshot gives me two CPs right from the start to use on SnD. I know cheapshot is no dps but sometimes I'll use it on a caster who is the primary target and it gives the tank and heals a slight break in damage at the beginning of a mob fight. Also, it's not really a dps loss because I haven't began to dps yet:)

    Wrong, wrong wrong soooooo wrong.
    1) You delay Bandits Guile
    2) Energy cost of Cheap Shot / Ambush pushes Bandits Guile back even more
    3) Why the hell would you stun in PvE? That delays your DPS, so !@#$ dies slower.
    4) Trying to get to your targets back and use ambush delays your DPS even more, as you had to take your time, rather than opening up with SS and just starting your rotation.

    5) It delays Bandits Guile. ktb.

    12/11/2011 04:06 PMPosted by Darkulous
    I also use RS near the beginning of my rotations because I don't want to worry about squeezing it in before an enemy dies on me

    Again, wrong. By not using RvS at the end of your CP's, you waste a potential SS glyph proc. Also, if something is that close to dying, just faceroll your keyboard. Doesn't matter, it's about to die, so just go ape%^-* spammy.

    It's half the fun of killing a boss is that last 1% where I pick up my Razer Naga, and just proceed to push every button on it.

    A TotT macro is a must. With all the damage you're putting on a mob, the threat needs to be redirected. A focus macro is easiest, just don't forget to set it at the beginning:)

    I like using AR early too. The more enemies around with BF active the better reason to use AR and watch your meter explode!

    This is the ONLY thing I didn't have a problem with in your post.
    Edited by Backstabi on 12/11/2011 6:46 PM PST
    Reply Quote
    90 Pandaren Rogue
    12645

    3) Why the hell would you stun in PvE? That delays your DPS, so !@#$ dies slower.


    CC does have places in pve imo. DPS doesn't always mean everything if you can provide control to some degree via something like gouge/stuns/blind to buy the few seconds needed to kill something else because someone got pulled and going for a healer.
    Reply Quote
    90 Blood Elf Rogue
    Vex
    9280

    3) Why the hell would you stun in PvE? That delays your DPS, so !@#$ dies slower.


    CC does have places in pve imo. DPS doesn't always mean everything if you can provide control to some degree via something like gouge/stuns/blind to buy the few seconds needed to kill something else because someone got pulled and going for a healer.


    That's true. Cheap Shot on a Sons of Flame - That's good use of CC. Random Trash Pack #3651547, Second Mob from the Left - That's wasteful.

    If CC needs to be applied we have Sap and Blind. Cheap Shot is a poor opener on the trash mobs your tank actually does want to engage.
    Reply Quote
    90 Blood Elf Rogue
    Vex
    9280
    12/11/2011 08:07 PMPosted by Gyroscope
    Im not sure if using Mighty Agility over Greater Critical Strike is possibly better with lower gear, but it looks like with higher end gear at least +65 Crit > +22 Agility.
    They were more or less even in T11. But given the (at the time) extreme cost of Enchant Cloak - Greater Critical Strike using Enchant Cloak - Major Agility was a more cost effective, or realistic (for some) option. Given the ease with which maelstrom crystals can be procured now, getting mats for Enchant Cloak - Greater Critical Strike is a pretty safe bet to not be hard to accomplish.
    Edited by Caera on 12/11/2011 8:28 PM PST
    Reply Quote

    Please report any Code of Conduct violations, including:

    Threats of violence. We take these seriously and will alert the proper authorities.

    Posts containing personal information about other players. This includes physical addresses, e-mail addresses, phone numbers, and inappropriate photos and/or videos.

    Harassing or discriminatory language. This will not be tolerated.

    Forums Code of Conduct

    Report Post # written by

    Reason
    Explain (256 characters max)
    Submit Cancel

    Reported!

    [Close]