DISC or HOLY for pvp in 4.3?

85 Gnome Priest
7420
04/18/2012 01:22 AMPosted by Rilaks
Firstly, there are a lot of things that can affect how effective PI-Mana Burns are in 2v2; PI getting dispelled, the Priest getting CC'd, a mana burn getting interrupted, the comp you're facing, etc. A good healer can avoid most mana burns, so I would put a small damper on the obvious pros of playing as Discipline.


If you let any of that happen, you're playing those comps wrong.

For example, say you're playing with a mage: Clear DR's, mage sheeps the DPS into an immediate Deep Freeze on the healer. Obviously, you wait to pull off this combo until you are in a position to get at least 2 burns off. Once the dps uses his trinket, then you repeat this sheep/deep combo with power infusion and bam, that's probably game right there just because of PI. Where's the need for another heal in any of that?

04/18/2012 01:22 AMPosted by Rilaks
Stating that a Discipline Priest is never in a bad spot is outright ignorant, which I'd like to think that you're not, given how well informed you seem to be about Discipline Priests in PvP.


We're talking about specific comps in twos, the most popular disc comps, that rely heavily upon peels from your partners and high damage output from the both of you. If you are coordinating well with your partner, you'll very rarely ever be in a truly bad spot, and even if you are, you have plenty of tools to deal with the situation without needing serenity.

If you play with a faceroll dps class like warrior or DK in 2s, go holy if you like, you don't particularly gain anything either way. If you play a comp that relies on mana burn at high ratings, such as Disc/Feral or Disc/Frost mage, being holy is just stupid and gimping yourself needlessly.

Also, in my experience, disc has much better mana regen through rapture. Maybe it's because I'm a gnome with a huge mana pool, so I get large rapture returns every 12 secs.

04/17/2012 08:47 PMPosted by Priestiality
lol ok


We all knew you didn't have any argument :p
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85 Goblin Priest
3030
04/18/2012 02:26 AMPosted by Mirae
Where's the need for another heal in any of that?

I'm only pointing out that Holy is a viable option for Arena, at the very least in 2v2. Of course Discipline doesn't need another heal in that situation, since obviously the heal we're referring to is for Holy Priests. Perhaps I misunderstood your statement to begin with, as I'm not quite sure why you're trying to imply that Holy Word: Serenity is the trade-off for not getting PI-Mana Burns. If this isn't the case, please correct me if I'm mistaken.

When I do 2v2 with a Fire Mage, we don't have problems getting 2-3 Mana Burns off during a chain of crowd control, which is about the same, or slightly less than you might get with PI (I would assume, given all the variables).

I think people bring up Holy Word: Serenity because of how instrumental it is towards Holy's viability in PvP, and it somehow got turned into a comparison with PI-Mana Burns (I might have started it, I'm too lazy to check).

One last thing before I go to bed, Holy Word: Chastise is something that Discipline doesn't have, and can greatly impact the direction of a match if used correctly (or incorrectly). It's a 30 yard range, 3 second disorient on a 21 second cooldown. Herein differentiates a good Holy Priest, and a bad Holy Priest: when you use it! In order to use it you have to leave the Serenity state, and in order to get back into the Serenity state you have to hard cast a Binding Heal, Heal, or Flash Heal. So if using Chastise doesn't go in your favor in terms of landing a kill or that extra mana burn, etc. then you could quickly fall behind in healing if you don't get that moment to free cast and get back into Serenity.

Personally I enjoy the challenge and vouch that anyone who practices with the spec could easily reach 2k in 2v2 or 3v3. Does it have the potential to reach 2.2k and higher? Possibly, but I'm not on the server, or have the patience to trial and error my way to those ratings.
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90 Night Elf Priest
5830
All this talk of tunneling burns is really depressing me right now. Don't any of you try getting trinkets then getting CC then teeing off and just killing something? God mana burning is so unsatisfying.

Rogue priest and mage priest have all the tools to kill 95% of healer/dps setups outright without touching burn. Feral priest I haven't played since like s9 or early s10 but I think it's almost the same.
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85 Draenei Paladin
3810
04/18/2012 06:29 AMPosted by Cybele
Rogue priest and mage priest have all the tools to kill 95% of healer/dps setups outright without touching burn. Feral priest I haven't played since like s9 or early s10 but I think it's almost the same.


And then you run into a resto druid/lock or shaman/lock and just want to put your fist through the monitor.

04/18/2012 02:26 AMPosted by Mirae
Also, in my experience, disc has much better mana regen through rapture. Maybe it's because I'm a gnome with a huge mana pool, so I get large rapture returns every 12 secs.


This is true, though Holy rarely has mana issues since its main spells cost generally less than Disc. You can often get away with using Serenity instead of Flash Heal, and you rely on PWS far less. You can refresh renews if they're not dispelled, and you're healing for significantly more with each spell (unless you're spamming on a grace-stacked target) with a significantly larger crit rating. Plus, there's quite a bit of spirit on the Cata gear, and in 2s you have plenty of time to regen passively.

In 3s holy will have mana problems if you live long enough.
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90 Night Elf Priest
5830
04/18/2012 07:05 AMPosted by Veknilah
And then you run into a resto druid/lock or shaman/lock and just want to put your fist through the monitor.


Most lock/healer teams, and many dps/healer teams where the dps sits on my dps peeling all day instead of trying to go for a kill, get themselves burned. They don't play the game to actually get a kill they are just playing to do mediocre damage and never die for 45 minutes or till someone falls asleep so they don't deserve the courtesy of a fair fight.

The same goes for other priest teams who mana burn me. We will let them get a few burns off for benefit of the doubt but if they keep going for them and don't try some damage pressure we will just turn around and show them how it's done. Usually win in 1-2 minutes after that decision is made.
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85 Gnome Priest
7420
04/18/2012 03:00 AMPosted by Rilaks
When I do 2v2 with a Fire Mage,


You know that power infusion can give a fire mage around 2 more ticks on his combustion, right? That's a huge amount of damage...also PI and Combustion share CD's, so they're always up when he's ready to combust again.

04/18/2012 03:00 AMPosted by Rilaks
I'm only pointing out that Holy is a viable option for Arena, at the very least in 2v2.


I never said holy wasn't viable, simply that you're not gaining an edge with PW:Ser and losing PI if you run the 3 most popular priest comps in 2s. If you run with, say a DK, holy is just about as good as disc in 2s.

04/18/2012 07:05 AMPosted by Veknilah
And then you run into a resto druid/lock or shaman/lock and just want to put your fist through the monitor.


This is the reason you'll need mana burns. The only team that would ever queue around 2100 when I used to play a lot was lock/resto sham. Nearly impossible to kill either of them as disc/rogue in CC chains, unless we CC'd the lock and slowly burnt down the shaman's mana.

UE riptide, Earth Shield, Healing Stream totem on Demon Armor is a ton of passive healing. We eventually just left like 5 matches in a row cause it was no fun trying to kill them through all their CD's.
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85 Goblin Priest
3030
04/18/2012 03:21 PMPosted by Mirae
You know that power infusion can give a fire mage around 2 more ticks on his combustion, right? That's a huge amount of damage...also PI and Combustion share CD's, so they're always up when he's ready to combust again.

I know, I played Discipline/Fire Mage before I went Holy.

04/18/2012 03:21 PMPosted by Mirae
I never said holy wasn't viable, simply that you're not gaining an edge with PW:Ser and losing PI if you run the 3 most popular priest comps in 2s. If you run with, say a DK, holy is just about as good as disc in 2s.


It's HW, not PW. You make it sound like PI is the only "edge" Discipline has over Holy. Furthermore, Holy also has Body and Soul, 3 minute Divine Hymns (which heal for 100% more), Test of Faith, and Guardian Spirit. Now, I'm not listing these talents and spells to imply that Holy is better than Discipline. Personally, I think both specs run into similar problems in a general sense, but have slight advantages over the other under certain circumstances.

Edit: Also, with regards to facing Warlock/Shaman teams, they're probably the easiest comp for a Holy Priest to face, even without the advantage of PI-Mana Burns. Holy Priests can keep up with the pressure without hard casting anything, without taxing mana either, and can play a lot more aggressively as a result. I'm always able to be conservative with my cooldowns too when sitting in a CC chain (if I'm CC'd of course), because Warlocks don't have an MS effect; Guardian Spirit will always top my partner (or myself) off, and they cant exactly stop the pressure to let it run out since dots are ticking with each passing moment.
Edited by Rilaks on 4/18/2012 4:06 PM PDT
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85 Draenei Paladin
3810
04/18/2012 03:21 PMPosted by Mirae
This is the reason you'll need mana burns. The only team that would ever queue around 2100 when I used to play a lot was lock/resto sham. Nearly impossible to kill either of them as disc/rogue in CC chains, unless we CC'd the lock and slowly burnt down the shaman's mana.


You can't mana burn a bear. Getting burns off through grounding/shear/fear/hex with PI up seems to be really tricky.

As holy, you do pretty well against lock teams since Holy heals are basically a direct counter to lock damage. You can even stay in Smite Chakra the entire match and get really high CC uptime on the warlock while your dps sits on the shaman.

Edit: Locks also have a tough time killing a lightwell since they have to cast shadowbolts or fel flame as it's immune to dots.
Edited by Veknilah on 4/19/2012 8:39 AM PDT
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100 Human Priest
12160
If holy is so great for pvp, then why are they completely underrepresented in arena rankings?


Oh geez, let's not start a flame war.

DISC > HOLY in ARENA. I AGREE.

Now look at my Arena ratings. Do you think I am trying to seriously be a top ranked Holy PvPer?


Of the 24 priests in the world who have a 2600+ battleground rating, 17 are discipline, 7 are shadow, and 0 are holy.

Of the 53 with 2500+ rating, only one is holy.

In the entirety of the top 2000 rated battleground teams, there are only 16 holy priests.
Edited by Adeany on 4/19/2012 11:53 AM PDT
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85 Goblin Priest
3030
Of the 24 priests in the world who have a 2600+ battleground rating, 17 are discipline, 7 are shadow, and 0 are holy.

Of the 53 with 2500+ rating, only one is holy.

In the entirety of the top 2000 rated battleground teams, there are only 16 holy priests.

Why do players always go to arena/bg representation when arguing against a particular spec? (That's a rhetorical question btw).

Given the simple fact that high end rated players represent such a minute percentage of the players in WoW should tell you enough that what spec they're playing is quite irrelevant.

It would be more realistic to cite arena/bg representation between the 1500-2200 range, because that is where the majority of players are at and is more relevant to them (the average player).

Let me put it this way: if a player wants to reach 2200 rating, any spec with the potential of that particular rating is a viable option. A spec's viability is entirely dependent on a player's goal, and given the small number of players who reach the ratings of 2400+ (as opposed to everyone else who does arena/rbgs), the implication that the means for which they achieved their goal does not apply for everyone else's goals.

To simplify: Just because most Priests played Discipline to reach 2400+ rating doesn't make Holy an unfeasible route to achieve a goal of 2000 rating.

Edit: Furthermore, proclaiming one to be better than the other for the average player, based on citing high end rated players, is also irrelevant, for the same reason I stated above.
Edited by Rilaks on 4/19/2012 4:55 PM PDT
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90 Night Elf Priest
5830
04/19/2012 04:53 PMPosted by Rilaks
1500-2200


No, because getting into that range (specifically the low end of it) is so trivial that your spec is irrelevant.

I'm pretty sure I could get 1500 without actually having a level 10 specialization (or any talents, obviously), for example.
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85 Gnome Priest
7420
04/19/2012 08:38 AMPosted by Veknilah
You can't mana burn a bear.


You don't need to mana burn a druid anyways. A few hard swaps onto the druid and finish him in a sbomb.

04/19/2012 08:38 AMPosted by Veknilah
Getting burns off through grounding/shear/fear/hex with PI up seems to be really tricky.


That's why you force trinkets, CC the lock and stun the shaman. Hence why Power Infusion is SO GOOD. You have very few attempts to burn a shaman's mana, so once you get your chance, not having PI is retarded...it's what I've been saying the whole thread.

Also, surviving against a lock/shaman team is easy enough as disc.

04/18/2012 04:02 PMPosted by Rilaks
Holy also has Body and Soul, 3 minute Divine Hymns (which heal for 100% more), Test of Faith, and Guardian Spirit.


soso (novas/stuns/DG/dispel), great for rBGs, just a worse version of grace, Pain Sup.
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90 Night Elf Priest
5830
Indeed I wander how many of you have realized that a priest with body and soul up goes at the same speed as a priest without it when snared by almost anything in the game.

4peice is limited to 100%.
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85 Goblin Priest
3030
04/19/2012 09:50 PMPosted by Mirae
soso (novas/stuns/DG/dispel), great for rBGs, just a worse version of grace, Pain Sup.

Novas...lol. Your partners also get the speed buff too. Divine Hymn is great for arena too, with only being on a 3 minute cooldown and going through LoS/Smokebomb, it's far from negligible.

Grace=24% (non-passive)

Spiritual Healing=15% (passive)
Test of Faith=12% (@ or less than 50% health)

These bonus to healing effects makes Guardian Spirit an even stronger spell, especially if it's self-cast.

Non self-cast, Guardian Spirit receives a 33% increased effect when it sacrifices itself, which is roughly a 100k heal on a 150k player (assuming no MS effects).

Self-cast, Guardian Spirit receives 63% increased effect when it sacrifices itself, which is roughly a 130k heal on a 160k player (assuming no MS effects).

It's a nice spell when teamed up with a fire mage, because it will proc before cauterize, thus saving IB cooldown.
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85 Goblin Priest
3030
04/19/2012 10:10 PMPosted by Propedal
because at higher levels of play it matters

I'm not sure if you actually read what I posted, but your quote alludes to a lot of it. If your goal is to be competitive at high end arena (i.e. 2400+ rating), I stated that citing the representation at that level would be relevant.

I think it is safe to assume that the average player, who cant necessarily "put the time and effort into finding the best possible spec/gear combination" and simply wants to reach a certain rating for achievements or higher CP cap, will not be at a disadvantage to trying alternative specs.

I've already stated previously that both specs have advantages over the other under certain circumstances, and that both face similar problems in a general sense.

04/19/2012 10:10 PMPosted by Propedal
The spec they play is quite relevant. As I said, they could take any spec and make it work, but they CHOSE that specific spec for a reason and ignoring that is simply folly.

You couldn't possibly know the reasoning for why they choose Discipline. It wouldn't be surprising if some of the best Priests in Arena had never even touched Holy in PvP. Discipline has been the cookie-cutter spec for the past two expansions, and up until patch 4.0.6 it was for good reason. Players have a stigma towards certain specs out of ignorance or word of mouth, so it's not in the least bit surprising that most, if not all the top Priests in PvP are Discipline.

I'm not arguing that Holy is better than Discipline all around, or vice versa. I recognize that Discipline provides many advantages that Holy does not in PvP. However, the ignorance surrounding Holy is quite obvious when most of the players who dismiss Holy's viability have most likely either A) Never played Holy, B) Played Holy incorrectly, or C) Saw someone play Holy incorrectly.

04/19/2012 10:10 PMPosted by Propedal
You should emulate the higher players, not the mid-range to low players which you are suggesting. I don't even get how you can logically defend some of the things you said. You're HONESTLY saying this?

You completely missed the point I so desperately tried to simplify in terms of understanding. Let me try to break this down in the simplest terms I can think of: if you want to reach Rank 1 for Arena, then looking towards the high end rated players would be most relevant towards your goal. You will come to learn several things with this observation: 1) You will see what comps are most common, 2) You will see what specs are most common, 3) You will see what stats are most used. However, you will not know why (unless you ask) a particular comp isn't played, their class' alternative specs aren't as prominent, or why certain stats are ignored.

This leads into directly into why this thread was made, the title is: "DISC or HOLY for pvp in 4.3?"

He didn't ask "DISC or HOLY for pvp in 4.0.3" when Holy was far from a viable alternative to Discipline. This is Patch 4.3, a different time in the game, and one could presume that the OP wants feedback for general PvP, as he makes no mention of Arena or RBGs.

04/19/2012 09:02 PMPosted by Cybele
No, because getting into that range (specifically the low end of it) is so trivial that your spec is irrelevant.

Well, at first I was going to say 1800-2200, but I wasn't sure if that's where the average player is at.

04/19/2012 10:10 PMPosted by Propedal
It's not bad, really, its not. But the general consensus is that Disc is simply better.

Tell me, how do you know that Holy is "not bad"? Is it from personal experience that you support your claims, nope, you cite the "general consensus." You being part of that general consensus, are making ignorant claims both for and against Holy, which is one of the reasons as I previously mentioned that Holy has a stigma attached to it.

04/19/2012 10:10 PMPosted by Propedal
TL;DR- Holy is viable and might be up your alley. But any spec if viable with a good player, so that point is moot. It is generally accepted by the PvP community that Disc is better for serious PvP, in particular arenas. I personally feel it is better to go cookie-cutter if you are starting out, and I'd recommend Disc then trying out Holy once you've gotten your feet wet.

Again, you reference the "PvP community" rather than having actual experience with the spec. Oh, and if any spec is viable with a good player behind it, that logic applies just as much so towards Discipline.

Discipline is no more a "starter" spec, as you like to imply, any more than Holy is, which speaks more to your lack of experience with Holy than anything else.
Edited by Rilaks on 4/19/2012 11:09 PM PDT
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85 Goblin Priest
3030
One final thought on this notion that emulating high rated players is the way to go: You (nor I) are any of these people! I know, an obvious statement, but it deserves mention. You do not have their experience, don't arena with their partners, don't have the exact same playstyles, don't fight at the same time of day in the same time zone, or communicate in the exact way that they do, etc.

That being said, since you are not the player with the exact same conditions for which they have made the decision to spec, enchant, reforge, gem, etc. the way that they have, will likely do more harm than good if you're new to PvP.

If I recall correctly, back in Season 8 of Arena, most Rogues were playing Mutilate/Prep builds. However, there was a small (if not growing) percentage of Rogues who began playing Shadowdance builds; Reckful, a high rated player, was among them. Although he, contrary to how everyone else was talenting, put his secondary talents into Combat, rather than Assassination. So why did he talent in that particular way? Because we're all unique individuals, it's as simple as that.

Some people drink Coca-Cola, some people drink Pepsi, and some don't drink either, because we all have different taste buds and lifestyles. This is also true in PvP.

Determining what works for you, and what doesn't work for you, is a better starting point than copying the end result of what works for someone else.
Edited by Rilaks on 4/19/2012 11:22 PM PDT
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85 Goblin Priest
3030
04/19/2012 11:23 PMPosted by Propedal
Don't assume things because I can only post from an alt priest.

Then we have as much reason to believe your advice to that of a level 1 alt.

Your highest personal rating in 2v2 is 1543, and you've only had nine 3v3 matches. Based on that evidence of your experience, I have no reason to consider you have any more than that, until proven otherwise (and your word, as I said, is as believable as some level 1 alt).

04/19/2012 11:23 PMPosted by Propedal
I've played Holy

You have not given any evidence to support that, you've simply referenced that the "general consensus" agrees upon Discipline for PvP. You could easily have read through the thread and simply regurgitated what other Holy Priests have already said, but you didn't even do that much to give us the impression that you have actual experience with the spec.

Furthermore, giving the OP specifics on what you liked and/or disliked about the spec would've been far more valuable advice than simply referencing the "general consensus". The only reason for not doing so is either laziness, in which case you shouldn't be giving advice on something you wont elaborate on, or you have as much experience PvPing as your statistics claim and again, shouldn't be arguing for or against something you know little or nothing about.

04/19/2012 11:23 PMPosted by Propedal
Again, you meander around the entire point that it is even more essential for a beginning player to emulate the more experience players until they get their bearings.

I guess you failed to comprehend my example of Reckful. No one copied his spec because they weren't him, it didn't work for them, or couldn't see it working for them, and went their own route. So no, it doesn't help new players out in setting their characters up much like an individual might at 2600+ rating.

It would be far more advantageous for new players to look at each talent individually and gauge their worth for their particular playstyle and difficulties within the game. Of course, they can come to forums and ask opinions to make more informed decisions, but simply referencing high rated players does nothing to help a new player aside from having a bad experience with what some ignorant player told them they should do.
Edited by Rilaks on 4/19/2012 11:44 PM PDT
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