"I already have a job."

89 Human Warrior
1960
12/24/2011 11:54 PMPosted by Lopsyhunt
If you want to do what ever you like go play some thing with cheat codes.


I suppose those of you pushing an attitude like this never even look at the menu when you go to a restaurant. You just take what they feed you?

"This appetizer was very cold." -> "You don't have to order or eat those."

"This steak is chewy." -> "We wanted it to last longer for you."

"This desert is bland." -> "We know what's best and we are looking out for you."

Finally,

"So tonight's meal wasn't great. Just wait until you see what we have on the menu next summer."

I seriously doubt any of you would accept this from a restaurant, yet you claim we must accept it here if we keep playing. How about this little thing called responding to your customers?

(Yeah I am violating my "stay away" rule here. I got hooked into reading this from a WoW Insider post.)


So, there should be a dev team for every player, making a different game for individual customers, and beer.
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100 Gnome Warrior
980
12/25/2011 12:37 AMPosted by Painfist
So, there should be a dev team for every player, making a different game for individual customers, and beer.


They should just bring beer. If each team makes it, some will be better than others and it wouldn't be fair.
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85 Human Hunter
4325
12/25/2011 12:37 AMPosted by Painfist
So, there should be a dev team for every player, making a different game for individual customers, and beer.


What does that mean? You wouldn't have a chef or cook for each individual at the restaurant, but they should certainly respond to customer comments. Why is Blizzard so much different?
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91 Tauren Paladin
7580
Dailies and grinding. You want X, you have to perform Y dailies for Z period of time. You grind rep and gold and then you get what you want. This is what I explained.

"But that's just like a job. I already have a job. When can we do something fun?"

Uh huh...

Brilliant game design.


Welcome to the world of MMO's.
Seriously, do you go on FPS forums and complain about having to shoot x amout of players to get y amount of money?

Hold on, is he trolling someone else or is he complaining about WoW being like a job?
How would you design a questing experience to be "fun", rather than feeling like a "job"?
Edited by Heliocentaur on 12/25/2011 12:24 PM PST
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100 Undead Warlock
9260
IF you are going to put in something you expect people to do repeatedly every day it should actually be fun. It's a Game the entire thing is supposed to be fun. The fact that people are comparing dailies to working the cashier at 7-11 is all you need to realize that Dailies fail to meet the Fun requirement.

Saying "you don't have to do them" is fine as long as you realize that what you are admitting is "yeah they're Crap but at least you don't Have to do them if you don't want to."


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91 Tauren Paladin
7580
12/21/2011 03:37 PMPosted by Bashiok
And furthermore, what would be a better design for this type of structure?


Infinite content.

It's easy to design a better system than dailies, pump out infinite amounts of content, it's just not feasible to pull off. Some people want to spend more time in the game than others, maybe even every day, and we want to make sure they have something to do. While we'd love for that to be fresh and unique content every time, it's simply not feasible. Thus, dailies. Give people something to do each time they log in (if they choose to do so every day).

Not to toot the Mists of Pandaria horn too hard, but I think our general zone design, daily, and scenario approach is pretty solid. Part of what makes dailies a bit tedious, aside from being tedious, is the rewards are desired but may not always quite fit the time investment. I see quite a bit of that being solved and making sure if you're logging in to do some dailies or scenarios, you feel like you made a good chunk of progress toward advancing your character.


Would it be wrong to remove gear from dailies rewards all together? Make it so players won't feel obligated to do dailies, but would "want" to do dailies instead.
You could reward useful items like consumables or potions, things that would be "fun" and rewarding, but not necessarily things that you absolutely "need" to put out the best DPS or healing.
Maybe, if you get exalted with a rep thru dailies mob related to that faction would drop extra gold or mats; or apply some of the guild perks to dailies, like decreasing the cd on your hearthstone by 1 min for friendly, 5 min for honorable, 8.5 min for revered, 10 min for exalted. Things that you would "want", but not necessarily "need".
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85 Draenei Shaman
2785
12/25/2011 12:21 PMPosted by Heliocentaur
Seriously, do you go on FPS forums and complain about having to shoot x amout of players to get y amount of money?

You know what's fun about a FPS? I don't have to log in every day and grind something out or risk being 'held back' in the game. It's pick up and play and walk away.

WoW dailies in most cases force you to log in every day to complete them or fall behind, and honestly, I don't want to have to log in every day and do the same 25 dailies. If I skip a day it just delays me and slows me down. And in another character or two into that, and well now your doing 50+ a day.

I also fail to see why you even would compare a FPS to WoW dailies. Apples and Oranges.
Edited by Oluja on 12/25/2011 12:47 PM PST
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85 Blood Elf Paladin
5230



It's easy to design a better system than dailies, pump out infinite amounts of content, it's just not feasible to pull off.


Ah, but it IS feasible, just not in the traditional matter.

The first thing that comes in order to have a feasible supply of infinite content is to expand on the meaning of what "content" represents. Traditional content comes in the format of quests, dungeons, raids and the like that are specifically designed to be released and relevant for a period of time, the problem with this format is that it gives a limited amount of activities with a limited amount of possibilities presented to the player. In other words, it's like giving fish to a man. But what would it mean then if you taught the man to fish?

"Teaching a man to fish" implies that there would be a way for the players to create content for themselves, thus providing infinite activities and possibilities.

I see at least one way that this could be possible: The players' actions should permanently affect the world they share in a way different to the linear "phasing" format, it could be small things like the power of guards in a settlement or the reagents they can sell in proportion of how they got them (securing trade routes, etc), or big ways like the existence of the settlement itself (like Halaa, but on all contested territories). Effects that the players trigger that are not limited to said players, but instead happen for the entire the game world.

And before any naysayers claim that it is still not feasible because it is limited to PvP or because the game itself has a rigid design that would make this impossible: It already exists at least in a small way, and it does not have to be limited to PvP at all. The best example for it is the quests inside Alterac Valley even if you do not want to encounter enemy players, you can do a lot without confronting them.

I think features such as these are coming in Mists of Pandaria, though I am not sure (the descriptions for them have been a bit ambiguous for me to understand). If so, this is the way you keep WoW from feeling like an endless grind, not by just making new stuff every six months or so, but by making an ever-changing World that can change by itself, thus providing infinite content.

TL;DR: Infinite content is feasible if players are capable of creating it by having their actions affect the world in all sorts of ways.


This.

*ugh, I hate when people play the "this" card on forums but even so, this is what Blizzard needs to be thinking about.
Edited by Valkýrie on 12/26/2011 7:17 AM PST
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85 Tauren Paladin
6430
So, there should be a dev team for every player, making a different game for individual customers, and beer.


What does that mean? You wouldn't have a chef or cook for each individual at the restaurant, but they should certainly respond to customer comments. Why is Blizzard so much different?
because the people here rarely reflect even 1% of the population in wow and have no clue what they want.


If they made it so you could get gold by killing each other people would complain about getting farmed. There is no content that they can make that will please everyone.
Edited by Sackmerocket on 12/26/2011 7:23 AM PST
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85 Blood Elf Paladin
5230
Infinite content.

It's easy to design a better system than dailies, pump out infinite amounts of content, it's just not feasible to pull off. Some people want to spend more time in the game than others, maybe even every day, and we want to make sure they have something to do. While we'd love for that to be fresh and unique content every time, it's simply not feasible. Thus, dailies. Give people something to do each time they log in (if they choose to do so every day).

Not to toot the Mists of Pandaria horn too hard, but I think our general zone design, daily, and scenario approach is pretty solid. Part of what makes dailies a bit tedious, aside from being tedious, is the rewards are desired but may not always quite fit the time investment. I see quite a bit of that being solved and making sure if you're logging in to do some dailies or scenarios, you feel like you made a good chunk of progress toward advancing your character.

...

Are you seriously suggesting that daily quests are somehow the pinnacle of MMO design for keeping players occupied, and anything short of having "infinite content/resources" would funnel into having daily quests.

I don't think you'd agree with that, so saying Daily quests are fine as is (just need better rewards) is downright (I remember a blue said they hated this word but w/e) lazy.


"The Task at Hand" Complete at least 3 different battleground tasks (that is, objective contributions, not just racking up damage and healing numbers) and win.
"Behind Enemy Lines" Kill at least 15 members of the enemy faction in X region. Player and PvP-marked non-player targets count toward this total.
"Black Gryphon Down" (85 only!!) Kill an enemy Flight Master. You may want to call for backup.


I'd wager that a decent proportion of the playerbases response to this will either be to ignore it, or do what they do whenever someone wants a Halaa pvp token mount...




Quoting for truth.

Basically, the Blizzard employee gave us a copout and did sort of say that "dailies are the best we can do". It's kind of sad if that's their opinion.
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60 Gnome Mage
0
12/26/2011 07:21 AMPosted by Valkýrie
Basically, the Blizzard employee gave us a copout and did sort of say that "dailies are the best we can do". It's kind of sad if that's their opinion.

I noticed a much more informative discussion on this topic while searching my browser URL history for this thread:

11/07/2011 01:36 PMPosted by Daxxarri
Dailies were, in part, a response to a World of Warcraft where there wasn't a lot of incentive to come play on non-raid days, since for many players, the only way to progress became dungeon runs and, for a few, raiding.

Daxxarri acknowledges that the dailies model does have flaws, but gives justification for the design based on the understanding of player desires and the lack of content or accessibility for solo players. Not to mention an extreme lack of world PvP, since there's no reward for seeking out challenging fights so people just gank new players.
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