"I already have a job."

100 Human Priest
11540
Technically, aren't all hobbies just jobs you aren't getting paid for? If I draw as a hobby, I'm enjoying working towards the goal of completing the drawing. If I like to run, I'm working on getting from point a to point b. If I crochet, I am working as well. In all these cases, the hobby is just a job I enjoy doing.

It's the same with WoW dailies. I do them for the fun of watching my little dolls progress in their make-believe lives. If I am not enjoying it, I stop. For example, The Argent Tournament is annoying and 90% of the 30 min ordeal is spent either traveling or tediously jousting. So I stopped. (Seriously Blizzard, what was up with that place?)

However most dailies are not bad. The Skettis dailies, The Isle of Quel Danas, the Wrath and Cata cooking dailies, The Molten Front, and Darkmoon Faire were all enjoyable for me. I especially like how the Molten Front quests come in groups, so you don't waste time traveling between areas. I would like to see more dailies that feel like the holidays, though. The holidays are so creative, but often dailies seem to be nothing but kill kill kill. Perhaps a little non-violent hub for us old dogs.
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97 Draenei Paladin
9380
12/21/2011 04:15 PMPosted by Waraila
Add some more quests and novelty items


and once you do the quests... what then?

After a few months, add some more in. I thought we were playing an MMORPG.


What methods to get these novelty items would you see in the game? I mean if they were just there for gold etc.. people would probably have them bought within the first day....
What?



Actually there is plenty of endgame content

Orly? By endgame content are you referring to the two (2) dungeons, which have nothing to do with the expansion by the way, but were the only 2 new dungeons (and only way to get the remainder of the VP outside of raiding) for the majority of this expansion?


With the way it's set up currently you just burn through a lot of things very fast because the general consensus is people don't want to grind. Yet without this grind there is nothing left... once you complete the content it's done...

The expansion launched with half/less than half of the dungeons and levels than TBC did. The raids were cut in half with the 10/25 shared lockout, when there wasn't much to them to begin with. I know a lot of the raiding content they intended to put into the game got axed so it is given that we have less then they meant for us to have.

Again i bring up having 2 dungeons to do for the bulk of this expansion.

MF was very good. But it didn't last for months on end.
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85 Blood Elf Death Knight
1495
Dailies and dungeon grinds are fine, if they are fun.

Remember Tetris in Gameboy? I was used to playing that game every day, starting from level 1. The only reward is to better myself and others and beat the highest score. No other tangible reward. But I enjoyed doing that everyday.

I think some bits of WoW are like that. If designed right, dailies and dungeon grinds are fine.
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100 Draenei Paladin
11235
12/21/2011 03:15 PMPosted by Quisto
My name is Dode and I like dailies :) You have found me.


But you also had criticism for the idea of a daily involving frogs. But you do it for the heirlooms or some other reward, right? I've done that quest. And maybe the first two times it had some charm. Doing it every day, three days running - because RNG is random, amirite? - is, well, not good.

Don't get me started on how laggy and flawed the whole jousting thing at the Argent grounds happens to be. Again, very charming idea, implemented so poorly I just have to scratch my head and wonder why.

And stop acting like the idea of dailies isn't flawed when even you, who claim to enjoy them, do not enjoy some of them. How much of a subset of daily quests have to become annoying before you change your mind about this?
There are hundreds of daily quests to chose from, if you don't like 1 or 2 or 50, just do different ones, or don't do any at all.

I'm a mount/pet collector on this toon, yet I get in moods where I can't stand to do any more Argent dailies. So I just don't do them for a few weeks. Problem solved.
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97 Draenei Paladin
9380
12/21/2011 04:22 PMPosted by Noctemtenchi
With the way it's set up currently you just burn through a lot of things very fast because the general consensus is people don't want to grind. Yet without this grind there is nothing left... once you complete the content it's done...

Which goes along with what Blizzard labeled as one of the leading reasons for the lost of subscriptions was due to content being consumed too fast. With the current direction Cata has been going, it continues to head towards a faster and faster consumption rate model.


The content wasn't consumed too fast so much as there was a real hunger for content by the time they rolled out MF, and this patch. There is a hunger because the base is genuinely being starved for content. We have had only 3 major patches in over a year, and they have all been ultra-light on content.

When you starve the base, and eventually throw something out to them, they will feverishly go for it immediately and devour it in one setting if it is at all possible. that is why you need to have content patches more than once every year or so for an mmorpg.
Edited by Berelythia on 12/21/2011 4:33 PM PST
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100 Tauren Druid
20750
12/21/2011 04:30 PMPosted by Berelythia
The content wasn't consumed too fast so much as there was a real hunger for content by the time they rolled out MF, and this patch. There is a hunger because the base is genuinely being starved for content. We have had only 3 major patches in over a year, and they have all been ultra-light on content.


Yes it was consumed too fast..

Rep grinds = trivial to do. In BC they took weeks, not a couple of days...
Dungeons? = geared inside a week. Back in BC you had to put up with the once per day lockout, which made gearing slower.
Daily grinds = took a lot longer too with competition for resources (see netherdrake eggs for example)

All that added up to content being consumed over a longer period of time and slower than it is now. It was an achievement to unlock the next level of items from a dungeon rep vendor for example... now? Not so much with tabards allowing you to autogrind rep in repeatable heroic dungeons.

That was the point we were making....
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85 Gnome Priest
3085
Its the type of content that is the problem.

To me, wow is competing with all other online games, games like counter strike and what nots. While I understand the carrot approach to have people invest time into something to 'earn' a reward, on the other hand, fun is its own reward.

There doesnt need to be a grind involved in every aspect of this game. Pvp? Pve? Professions? At their base is a grind, and in some instances poorly realised ones that are actually counter to fun.

PVP for instance is about the player v player experience. Instead its a gear grind in itself, and to stay competitive you have to keep up with the grind, you need 4k resil, you need a good weapon... etc...

Its not about wanting everything now, its about a design that simply priorities /played so that people stay subbed. To me that is counter to fun in many ways, people would stay subbed for fun. We dont need 'lots' of content and artificial lock outs and paced out treadmills to stay subscribed to the game. Just use the content you have to make the place more fun? More world events, more 'life' in teh world.

Ive been playing since open beta, and I remember the world pvp back in vanilla before the honour system.

Why did people do it? It was counter to the 'grind' it actually punished you because you got no rewards or xp at all. But it was tonnes of fun, lots of people did it. I remember just exploring the world and the world pvp that went on, entire zones were a battle between horde and alliance. Now? Its a gear grind. An instanced gear grind. Why? Because it is more rewarding in game terms. And if you are constantly on the treadmill, getting off for a second becomes painful if it puts you further behind the pack.

The entire game has become Phantasy Star in many ways, cities are lobbies while waiting for queues to pop. Where is the world? Why is it there? Its just wasted content.
Edited by Gnomeopathy on 12/21/2011 4:37 PM PST
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90 Pandaren Rogue
14030
As long as there's nothing as terrible as the firelands dailies, I will be pleased.
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85 Gnome Priest
3085
Its like...

There is a 5 course meal of everything your heart desires once a month.

OR

You can have that same meal blended up and drip fed to you over a month.

I know which one I would want >.< And waiting isnt so bad when its not a poorly designed grind. ie new DMF content. Why look foward to it? Is it fun? Not really. Is it well designed? No. Its just a grind that lasts months and months. Imagine looking foward to it because it had well designed and fun content? And the rewards were not the only thing that kept you going, but something that was just a bonus extra?

Its not infinite content, its fun content.
Edited by Gnomeopathy on 12/21/2011 4:43 PM PST
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90 Draenei Shaman
7485
You don't even have to do Dailies to get anywhere really, aside from maybe dailies that allow for a shoulder enchant and so on (I haven't done them myself, the loss of 25 haste or whatever isn't that much when you can just use honor to get enchants for your shoulders instead. +50 intel is +50 intel. ((That being said I should probably farm some honor for shoulder enchants.. xD))
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90 Night Elf Druid
8200
The content wasn't consumed too fast so much as there was a real hunger for content by the time they rolled out MF, and this patch. There is a hunger because the base is genuinely being starved for content. We have had only 3 major patches in over a year, and they have all been ultra-light on content.

When you starve the base, and eventually throw something out to them, they will feverishly go for it immediately and devour it in one setting if it is at all possible. that is why you need to have content patches more than once every year or so for an mmorpg.

The amount of available content as well did play a large point and less content along with faster pacing in said content is going to result in a wider range of players who consume the content faster and therefor left bored.

I had joked back in the end of WotLK that the players who want to put in the least amount of game time and money into the game in order to see content will jump in for a month at the end of an expansion.
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90 Night Elf Hunter
7615
Its not about wanting everything now, its about a design that simply priorities /played so that people stay subbed. To me that is counter to fun in many ways, people would stay subbed for fun. We dont need 'lots' of content and artificial lock outs and paced out treadmills to stay subscribed to the game. Just use the content you have to make the place more fun? More world events, more 'life' in teh world


I had a lively discussion with a few people over, "What is a grind?" It amused me that people playing on the same say....10 maps in FPS games didn't feel that getting from private to general (or whatever) wasn't a grind.....but i realized in the end that.....they were just having a good time doing it.
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90 Blood Elf Priest
9955
12/21/2011 02:11 PMPosted by Crepe
It's one thing to say you're not interested in doing something in particular, but it really doesn't give anyone any clear direction as to what you'd like to be doing.


Dynamic quests!

Not having to do repeated motion forever for reward..
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100 Human Death Knight
6390
I'm of two minds on dailies. On one hand I really don't like them. I never used to mind them till the Crusaders arena ones. Grinding those over and over, for each races of your faction. Bleh. Burnt me out. I do them now, but not every day. I've got tons of gold and the gear has far surpassed the faction rep items now.

On the other hand, I remember Vanilla. Where you still had to grind almost every day for gold for repairs and what not, only instead of doing it at some daily hub, you had to grind mobs for drops to sell on the auction house. Or mining,skinning etc. Pretty hard back then to get away without some gathering profession.

Anyone miss grinding mobs in felwood for fel cloth? I don't really.
Edited by Wynters on 12/21/2011 4:53 PM PST
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100 Troll Hunter
12185
I love this one. Just how big are those blinders?

This is a game, not life. The two may have similarities, but confusing the two is not smart.


So you don't get money for putting in time for work, you just get handed the money? maybe you need to understand that they are very similar in every aspect. You want something? you work for it. You do X for Y, same concept.
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85 Gnome Priest
3085
A grind is mindless busy work aimed towards a distant reward.

Ie, Questing and leveling are a grind designed to have you keep playing and paying. Poorly thought out, repetitive quests, a system that takes much longer than needed to actually get you ready for 'cap'

And FPS is a grind if you are not having much fun and are playing for a distant reward.

Again, how much of wow playtime is spent while doing something else? Watching tv? A movie? Listening to something else? The mindless grind behind so much of this game needs to go because it adds nothing.

When you are having fun and are engaged with a game, can you watch another movie while playing? With wow you can 90% of the time, because you are not engaged, you are disengaged and in 'auto' mode because you are just grinding on auto pilot. The problem with wow and mmos is that the grind isnt hidden behind fun dynamic content, its bare bones, slaps you in the face with the promise of distant reward once in awhile.

95% of the content in the game is leveling. And people zip through, mindlessly in quests with little varity, with content that requires little thought, and little use of your classes abilities besides 1 or 2 dps buttons.

Why is it there? Whats it do? what is its purpose? Does it get you ready for 'end game'? No, as can be seen by how many people can hit cap without knowing their class all that well. Does it tell a great story with unique quests that keep you playing? No. Most quests are identical in structure.

Leveling could be restricted to fewer zones, freeing up 90% of the world to 'end game' content. Instead its a theme park ride without any patrons. And thats just depressing.
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is this about shoulder enchants?
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85 Human Priest
12185
12/21/2011 04:00 PMPosted by Bashiok
It's not going to be a revolution or anything, don't get me wrong, but I think it'll at least feel better. No one likes being the guy on the assembly line putting the left index finger on the doll 250 times a day, 5 days a week. They might not mind it as much though if they're paid $100k a year. Right?


So the daily quests will still be a tedious grind, but you're hoping large, flashy rewards will encourage more people to participate? That's probably going to lead to more ill-will and resentment than the current state of affairs, where people can skip the tedium because the rewards are pretty uninspiring as well. If a player feels like gouging their eyes out but also sees it as mandatory to do the quests because they reward high-end epics or mounts, these shiny rewards will, somewhat ironically, make the situation worse rather than better.

I suspect, however, that that's probably not where you intended to go with that analogy. ^_-
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12/21/2011 03:37 PMPosted by Bashiok
And furthermore, what would be a better design for this type of structure?


Infinite content.

It's easy to design a better system than dailies, pump out infinite amounts of content, it's just not feasible to pull off. Some people want to spend more time in the game than others, maybe even every day, and we want to make sure they have something to do. While we'd love for that to be fresh and unique content every time, it's simply not feasible. Thus, dailies. Give people something to do each time they log in (if they choose to do so every day).

Not to toot the Mists of Pandaria horn too hard, but I think our general zone design, daily, and scenario approach is pretty solid. Part of what makes dailies a bit tedious, aside from being tedious, is the rewards are desired but may not always quite fit the time investment. I see quite a bit of that being solved and making sure if you're logging in to do some dailies or scenarios, you feel like you made a good chunk of progress toward advancing your character.


I know that it's not my job to make video games (I wish it was), but personally, I think that dailies were a big mistake. I don't think that it should be your job to overreact to the fact that some people are trying to squeeze more than $15/mo value out of the game.

Since you've come to conclusions as to how much time people generally play, you've spaced-out the game to fit accordingly. The problem is that you're factoring in a lot of people that are spending an unhealthy amount of time in this game.

That's my take on it. I know that this game is the most successful online game in world history, which means you've probably done something right. I'll give you guys that, but it's still frustrating.
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85 Gnome Priest
3085
The fact is, 'daily' content is consumed in one day, it just has to be repeated. 'content' is consumed the first time you do it. Forcing people to do it again and again for a distant reward? Thats not content, thats artifical limiting for no real reason other than the inability to come up with a fun rewarding system.
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