Gurth: Far more broken in pvp/pve than DWTR

Got some links for me then?

Note: I want 2-hander Frost parses, not Dual-Wielder (of which there are a great many, and which are worthless for determining how many opportunities a Frost DK would have to proc Gurth).
Edited by Sharrow on 1/5/2012 1:08 AM PST
90 Human Paladin
10480
The logical solution to "bring the proc rate in line with other classes and specs that could use this weapon" would have been to find the mean proc chance across all the specs and set that as your normalization marker.

Singling out and removing SoT, which counts as a melee attack for the purpose of procing weapons and trinkets, is a complete 180 for the entire class since the revamp of Seal of Vengeance, which was designed in such a way to bring Ret to par with other melee classes with regards to number of melee hits.

Nothing changed with Shadowmourne, Tiny Abom in a Jar, Apparatus, Brooch, or any other weapon/trinket combo that had a chance on hit/crit. There were no absurd number of procs with Gurthalak for Rets vs any other class.

If the proc rate was indeed absurdly high for Ret, then a reduction to bring the proc rate IN LINE with other classes is indeed warranted.

Nothing more, nothing less.
90 Human Paladin
12760
ok after further investigation of the differences in both logs i would be amiss if i didnt mention other contibuting factors to the variance in dps. Looking over the Warlord fights you will notice such things like TV hitting for the exact same number of times but critting 10 more times on the previos week than this week. This is true for other things as well. Yet it does not take away from the fact that this fix is still a nerf. I do agree with Ciaro that it was a bit too powerful for just an epic drop item. Add some stats and some gem slots and you have the greatest legendary ever...even better than the caster staff. That being said it is still totally unfair to fix it for just one class which now brings us out of the top to mid range in dps to now bottom to mid range. In fact while discussing this issue with guildies one made reference to the point that he was wondering what i was doing cause he was used to seeing the 1 line of pink in the top of his meters. Personally i think the way it should have been handled was to put an ICD of roughly 5-6 seconds on it so that essentially the most tentacle you could have up at a single time would have been 2. The foreseeable problem with that is like most other ICD items as soon as the CD is up you get a proc so essentially you would have 2 tentacles up throughout the whole fight.
In anycase they got this wrong again and have once again singled out the rets for an uncalled for and unfair nerf. Guess its time to bring back my lock as my main..it was fun for a month or so being able to raid ret again.

Singling out and removing SoT, which counts as a melee attack for the purpose of procing weapons and trinkets, is a complete 180 for the entire class since the revamp of Seal of Vengeance, which was designed in such a way to bring Ret to par with other melee classes with regards to number of melee hits.

To be fair, Seals do not count for a number of trinkets in this expac (though they do for many others), which is one reason why those that stack 'on Crit' tend to suck for us - they stack slowly and the stacks fall off easily.
85 Troll Warlock
7950
Anyone who thinks this weapon is not broken and badly out of balance is sorely mistaken. My legendary staff took 4 months of grinding in Firelands to acquire, and added about 3-5 k to my average dps on each fight. The proc usually does 6-8% of my damage.

On the other hand, our ret pally acquired Gurthalak two days after Dragon Soul opened as a routine drop from Normal Madness. Instantly, his dps increased 14k to 20k, and the tentacle does around 20% of his damage on most fights. As a warlock, imagine my disgust when a tentacle proc feature routinely does 80-90% of the damage my felhunter or imp will do in an average Dragon Soul fight. As a pet class, NO sword proc should nearly out damage my pet. It's insane. Over-powered is too mild a word to describe this. Imbalanced is woefully inaccurate. Words like "absurd" and "obscene" come to mind.

We are both in IL 396 gear, and both play the best min/max approach available. Both of us routinely put up world-ranking parses in WoL for our class/spec. All I know is, before that sword dropped, I was typically 5k above him on most fights. All of a sudden, he is 10k above me. Nothing else changed. The sword is broken. That is all. I feel like sharding my legendary when I look at meters now. Why did I waste my time grinding for it? Thanks so much guys.
85 Tauren Paladin
0
so does landslide and trinkets still proc off this "Second" proc chance on seal of truth?
and if so can we get that removed as well?
Edited by Recruit on 1/5/2012 1:36 AM PST
100 Draenei Paladin
18195
01/05/2012 01:35 AMPosted by Bloodgypsy
Anyone who thinks this weapon is not broken and badly out of balance is sorely mistaken.


And it's still "badly" broken for every other Melee if you want to call it that, Retribution was singled out of the bunch with this nerf.
85 Blood Elf Paladin
12455
Anyone who thinks this weapon is not broken and badly out of balance is sorely mistaken. My legendary staff took 4 months of grinding in Firelands to acquire, and added about 3-5 k to my average dps on each fight. The proc usually does 6-8% of my damage.

On the other hand, our ret pally acquired Gurthalak two days after Dragon Soul opened as a routine drop from Normal Madness. Instantly, his dps increased 14k to 20k, and the tentacle does around 20% of his damage on most fights. As a warlock, imagine my disgust when a tentacle proc feature routinely does 80-90% of the damage my felhunter or imp will do in an average Dragon Soul fight. As a pet class, NO sword proc should nearly out damage my pet. It's insane. Over-powered is too mild a word to describe this. Imbalanced is woefully inaccurate. Words like "absurd" and "obscene" come to mind.

We are both in IL 396 gear, and both play the best min/max approach available. Both of us routinely put up world-ranking parses in WoL for our class/spec. All I know is, before that sword dropped, I was typically 5k above him on most fights. All of a sudden, he is 10k above me. Nothing else changed. The sword is broken. That is all. I feel like sharding my legendary when I look at meters now. Why did I waste my time grinding for it? Thanks so much guys.


The tentacle doesn't do 20% of a Ret's damage quit exaggerating and it certainly doesn't give us a 15K dps boost are you so bent out of shape the only thing you can do is make things up?
Edited by Requîtal on 1/5/2012 1:43 AM PST
83 Human Warrior
11250
Anyone who thinks this weapon is not broken and badly out of balance is sorely mistaken. My legendary staff took 4 months of grinding in Firelands to acquire, and added about 3-5 k to my average dps on each fight. The proc usually does 6-8% of my damage.

On the other hand, our ret pally acquired Gurthalak two days after Dragon Soul opened as a routine drop from Normal Madness. Instantly, his dps increased 14k to 20k, and the tentacle does around 20% of his damage on most fights. As a warlock, imagine my disgust when a tentacle proc feature routinely does 80-90% of the damage my felhunter or imp will do in an average Dragon Soul fight. As a pet class, NO sword proc should nearly out damage my pet. It's insane. Over-powered is too mild a word to describe this. Imbalanced is woefully inaccurate. Words like "absurd" and "obscene" come to mind.

We are both in IL 396 gear, and both play the best min/max approach available. Both of us routinely put up world-ranking parses in WoL for our class/spec. All I know is, before that sword dropped, I was typically 5k above him on most fights. All of a sudden, he is 10k above me. Nothing else changed. The sword is broken. That is all. I feel like sharding my legendary when I look at meters now. Why did I waste my time grinding for it? Thanks so much guys.


The tentacle doesn't do 20% of a Ret's damage quit exaggerating and it certainly doesn't give us a 15K dps boost are you so bent out of shape the only thing you can do is make things up?


I already posted links to a parse where the tentacle was the ret's highest done damage ability, and did 17% of his overall dps. Prenerf. Read the thread.
90 Human Paladin
10480
http://worldoflogs.com/guilds/61212/

My logs, which also include some other melee who also have Gurth as well.

PLEASE show me where the tentacles are doing an absurd amount of damage for ANY of the melee classes that use it pre Ret-nerf.

Feel free to also look over the other logs from Stormrage. Are you making a blanket statement based off of one person's log on one attempt/kill? The numbers that the rest of us are seeing do not add up.

If you sit down and look at the parses from each class/spec that have this weapon AND play well, you will find that the proc chances are close when going between each class/spec, with Fury seeing, on average, a slightly lower proc chance.

This isn't theorycrafting. This is looking at actual results and reporting what actually happened across the board.
01/05/2012 01:48 AMPosted by Ciaro
I already posted links to a parse where the tentacle was the ret's highest done damage ability, and did 17% of his overall dps. Prenerf. Read the thread.


Top ret dps on world of logs on Heroic Ultraxion 10man is #79 overall and his tentacle does roughly 8.5% of his dps. Top warrior is arms and #6 overall, he doesn't even have the tentacle weapon. There are about 10 warriors ahead of him. Given the reduced proc post nerf, he would now be placed somewhere around just outside of top 200.

Highest ret on Heroic Ultraxion 25man is #89 overall, tentacle did 13% of his dps(13% of his 46k is 6k dps btw) and he was beaten by(I can't be bothered counting) what looks like about 60 warriors. Highest warrior was #2 overall.

Whether it was too good for rets at this point is moot, it was needed to even stay mildly somewhat a little bit possibly competitive. Top ret logs will be 10k dps behind the top warrior logs on Ultraxion now.

Thank god they nerfed this weapon for rets.
Edited by Mathil on 1/5/2012 2:29 AM PST
85 Blood Elf Paladin
12455



The tentacle doesn't do 20% of a Ret's damage quit exaggerating and it certainly doesn't give us a 15K dps boost are you so bent out of shape the only thing you can do is make things up?


I already posted links to a parse where the tentacle was the ret's highest done damage ability, and did 17% of his overall dps. Prenerf. Read the thread.


Then you posted a bugged log what you are saying doesn't happen. If it did happen it's 1 out of probably close to 100,000K certainly no reason to cry nerf just because you may be a mediocre player.

The more I look at the logs you posted the more I realize you don't actually understand how to read wol.
Edited by Requîtal on 1/5/2012 2:39 AM PST
Putting in a separate post what I was going to say before going off on a side tangent:

I hit a target dummy for 30 minutes with just melee swings. 500 hits and it spawned 4 tentacles. Based on that test, 1 in every 125 hits.

I shelled out thousands of gold to get pve gear so I could not be useless when trying to do normal DS on this char to get the weapon. I now don't have to worry about it and let's just say I'm lucky I hadn't spent my conquest points yet this week because I can still afford to buy the tier 1 weapon. I'll give it a day or two to see if anything changes but it seems unlikely.

Oh and btw, was doing bgs today with a rogue that had the LFR vial. Looked at his damage and it was 20% of everything he did. What has happened to it so far? Got fixed for hunters because it wasn't hitting hard enough for them. Yea, good game.
90 Blood Elf Paladin
18945
What I dont get is classes are broken for entire xpacs yet some random who hides on an alt posts on 1/1 and a fix is implemented 4 days later? We finally had something that let us be more competitive and it got taken away because of selective and handpicked logs. I was finally happy to play my class again for a little while.

Is the weapon good? Sure. But we also sacrifice secondary stats to get the little edge we had to maintain doing good dps.

As per Daxxarri a Blizzard CM----

"After monitoring thousands of Firelands kills, we've concluded that Retribution’s damage was not where we wanted it to be, so we're going to increase Censure damage by roughly 40%. We'll also be keeping an eye on paladin damage as we move towards patch 4.3. We expect that this hotfix should be applied sometime later today."

That fix was posted in September, so it took them 10 months to figure out we were serious underdogs, but in 4 days and a little over a month into 4.3 someone had the idea to nerf the one good thing that kept us competitive? .. Cmon, there needs to be a larger data sample then that. In a month everyone will be in "better" gear, and we'll just go further down the charts.

This is what beta is for, stop with the give and take please.
Edited by Fear on 1/5/2012 2:27 AM PST
90 Human Paladin
10480
Quoting Parabad on the EJ forums after extensive testing of Gurthalak:

Source:
http://elitistjerks.com/f76/t110342-retribution_concordance_4_3_voice_dps/p67/
Post #1665


"There seems to be a lot of misinformation/unsubstantiated claims being thrown around on Gurthalak in the last page or so. As Jonuts pointed out, the proc has never shown any sign of AP/SP scaling. Damage modifiers that will affect it include 3%/2% communion, CoE, avenging wrath, UH DK mastery, battle/berserker stance,boss mechanic global buffs/debuffs. Outside of that tick damage has remained constant.

My testing with seal of truth is about a page back now but in sum truth is procing the tentacle and not command. While specced out of command, it was still procing from truth hits. While it's hard to definitively rule out SoC as a source as well, data I've examined for 10k+ attacks suggest that SoC is not causing procs. If it was then the observed proc rates would be much lower than generally accepted. When only including the normal attacks + SoT hits the observed proc rate falls close to the accepted 2% value."

TL;DR version:
Post hotfix Ret gets 1% chance to proc a tentacle.
All others receive an approx 2% chance to proc a tentacle.
Edited by Odenknight on 1/5/2012 2:59 AM PST

On the other hand, our ret pally acquired Gurthalak two days after Dragon Soul opened as a routine drop from Normal Madness. Instantly, his dps increased 14k to 20k, and the tentacle does around 20% of his damage on most fights. As a warlock, imagine my disgust when a tentacle proc feature routinely does 80-90% of the damage my felhunter or imp will do in an average Dragon Soul fight. As a pet class, NO sword proc should nearly out damage my pet. It's insane. Over-powered is too mild a word to describe this. Imbalanced is woefully inaccurate. Words like "absurd" and "obscene" come to mind.

Show me parses.

Wait, found them.

Here's one: http://worldoflogs.com/reports/rt-sypwovv6pyljbwaf/sum/damageDone/?s=299&e=602

Tentacle's 7.8% of Super's damage. Your primary pet is 13.2% of yours.

Here's another: http://worldoflogs.com/reports/rt-rlu0eqrpbrv7sfvn/sum/damageDone/?s=2950&e=3189

Tentacle's 2.3% of Super's damage. Your primary pet is 14.7% of yours. Presumably Super was too far back from Ultra and the tentacles didn't proc right. Your pets seemed fine, however.

All the parses show the same thing (when the tentacles aren't bugged). Care to exaggerate some more?

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