Gurth: Far more broken in pvp/pve than DWTR

100 Human Paladin
8095
It looks like the nerf was pretty heavy, but as a Retadin I can't say I'm that upset. Gurthalak as BIS for PvP meant regular raiders technically had an advantage over strict PvPers, because they could access the regular version of the sword for more stats and weapon DPS. That was kinda screwed up and greatly blurred the line between PvE and PvP, almost to Classic/BC levels. Keep them separate, amirite?
Edited by Sigmar on 1/5/2012 7:37 AM PST
100 Human Paladin
10625
I disagree with the nerf (excuse me, bugfix) to Gurth as I specifically said earlier in my thread: Different classes with different mechanics operating differently and benefiting more from certain mechanics is not new, unusual, or broken.

However, the legions of ret paladins complaining that they are now a "broken" class just reinforces my original point: The proc is far, far too powerful and makes up far too much of a players dps. This is a particular issue in pvp (as for people saying "kill the tentacle," if you don't know why that's not a 100% solution, or even a 50% solution against good pvpers, have fun being a 1500 hero). It's fairly broken in pve too. Imagine this: If Gurth had stats, it would be the most powerful legendary relative to gear this game has ever seen. Even though it -doesn't- it's still more powerful than a good number of them. And it's an epic -drop- that scrubs can get weekly in LFR. -That- is what's broken at the core.


I agree with you completely. It's not tuned right; the sword even in its LFR incarnation is way, way too much of any given 2H user's DPS. It really is basically the 2H strength user's legendary. We are competitive, but balancing that competitive DPS around a proc item is a terrible plan, and this is why.
Edited by Anafielle on 1/5/2012 7:58 AM PST
90 Blood Elf Paladin
18945
Getting the slicer shouldnt have to be the option we go to though. If the weapon needs to be nerfed then it should be across the board. Shouldn't be a direct nerf to ret and thus forcing us to want another weapon.
85 Night Elf Hunter
2360
I dont understand how a weapon proc accounts for over 10% of damage is what you intend.
85 Orc Warrior
4845
01/05/2012 07:41 AMPosted by Fear
Getting the slicer shouldnt have to be the option we go to though. If the weapon needs to be nerfed then it should be across the board. Shouldn't be a direct nerf to ret and thus forcing us to want another weapon.


Honestly, the Gurthalak isn't the end all be all weapon that many are making it out to be. There are good Arms Warriors that prefer the Heroic ESS over the normal Gurthalak because of the increased weapon damage (Arms is extremely reliant on weapon damage) and secondary stats. Yes, when you have really good RNG on the weapon it's better than heroic ESS but on average.
Edited by Bloodletters on 1/5/2012 8:57 AM PST
90 Dwarf Paladin
16700
I don't know why it was decided gurth needed this nerf when things like Tiny Abom in a Jar and Shadowmourne ran off the same mechanics which were never changed. They both procced off Seal of Truth, and that keeps us with (currently) the other two specs that use it. A nerf may have been needed, but not anywhere near as excessive as this was.
1 Night Elf Druid
0
How come abilities like Strikes of Opportunity are permitted to proc Guth'alak while Seals are not? Granted there is a bit of a difference between an attack that procs off every attack to one that procs every 15-20% of the time, but other classes already have more abilities that will proc Gurth than Paladins do. Paladins have greater average downtime than either Warrior spec or Death Knights, and in relation to Death Knights they both share the similarity that Death Coil and Exorcism do not proc the ability, notching it both against them.

The problem really is that Retribution even getting into the first four to five pages of top Ultraxion (our best Patchwerk dummy this tier) parses, which they're barely breaking into with all the Fire Mage, Arms Warrior, and Combat Rogue dominance, that Retribution has never been given the ability to scale well with additional content, and that early on when players aren't as geared, even with Gurth, Paladins are merely "highly competitive" but still unable to break the ceiling like other melee or casters are. Secondary stats give a pittance of result for the investment that Retribution Paladins put into them (seriously, top tier gear and struggling for that 10% crit?)

Why was the response to flat nerf it, resulting in a PvE loss which will cause Retribution to likely slip further back? Why does this spec always get to start out strong but fail in the back end? It's like a cruel joke, after two tiers of poor to middling performance, Retribution finally showed up ready to play, only to have its toy ball taken away. I would agree with anyone that balancing a spec should not be based on a proc weapon, and this is the result.

Either way, even with the hotfix, the sky is not falling itemization-wise. It's merely one of those "it is what it is" and what's good for the goose is not good for the gander sort of situations. Retribution had its fun with TAJ insane procs in ICC. Granted, those amounted to a tiny fraction of the Paladin's damage compared to Gurth, but I guess we were given a crumb then, so we don't get a cookie now.
90 Dwarf Paladin
16700
How come abilities like Strikes of Opportunity are permitted to proc Guth'alak while Seals are not? Granted there is a bit of a difference between an attack that procs off every attack to one that procs every 15-20% of the time, but other classes already have more abilities that will proc Gurth than Paladins do. Paladins have greater average downtime than either Warrior spec or Death Knights, and in relation to Death Knights they both share the similarity that Death Coil and Exorcism do not proc the ability, notching it both against them.

The problem really is that Retribution even getting into the first four to five pages of top Ultraxion (our best Patchwerk dummy this tier) parses, which they're barely breaking into with all the Fire Mage, Arms Warrior, and Combat Rogue dominance, that Retribution has never been given the ability to scale well with additional content, and that early on when players aren't as geared, even with Gurth, Paladins are merely "highly competitive" but still unable to break the ceiling like other melee or casters are. Secondary stats give a pittance of result for the investment that Retribution Paladins put into them (seriously, top tier gear and struggling for that 10% crit?)

Why was the response to flat nerf it, resulting in a PvE loss which will cause Retribution to likely slip further back? Why does this spec always get to start out strong but fail in the back end? It's like a cruel joke, after two tiers of poor to middling performance, Retribution finally showed up ready to play, only to have its toy ball taken away. I would agree with anyone that balancing a spec should not be based on a proc weapon, and this is the result.

Either way, even with the hotfix, the sky is not falling itemization-wise. It's merely one of those "it is what it is" and what's good for the goose is not good for the gander sort of situations. Retribution had its fun with TAJ insane procs in ICC. Granted, those amounted to a tiny fraction of the Paladin's damage compared to Gurth, but I guess we were given a crumb then, so we don't get a cookie now.


Why? Because when we were approaching a reasonable dps capability relative to arms and combat and fire, compared to what we were before, everyone starts complaining about us (but never those classes and specs that are doing better than us off the bat - Arms was overall a higher dps spec than ret before the nerf by about 3k).

There's no reason to nerf it and us so excessively now, even more so because there was already a precedent of NOT "fixing" the mechanic they already let go before.
90 Blood Elf Paladin
18945
@ Bloodletters

I'm not talking about heroic weapons, and saying warriors favor a high dps weapon would imply paladins wouldnt? You're a class that is dependant on your secondary stat which is crit, and the heroic mace off gunship has haste so yes, logically warriors would want the slicer at the heroic level.

The paladin class is ... I can't get enough haste to make my rotation make sense, and can't get enough crit for it to be a very meaningful stat, so we're shoehorned into getting mastery as our first secondary stat. This weapons proc was a very nice bandaid for lack of useful secondary stats and to fill the holes in our very gapped rotation.

The logic was that if we can't be balanced in years at least the weapon made up for some of the lack of work on the ret spec as a whole. Now they are just taking it away and without any word of reverting or compensating for it forces us to have to get another weapon.

I'm not arguing with you by the way, just stating that I understand where you are coming from and at least hope you can understand where I/we are coming from.

Give me back swift retribution, or let me have more then 10% crit and I would never miss this weapon.
Edited by Fear on 1/5/2012 9:38 AM PST
100 Undead Warrior
12420
How come abilities like Strikes of Opportunity are permitted to proc Guth'alak while Seals are not?


Censure DoT ticks are not melee attacks in and of themselves. SoO is.
90 Dwarf Paladin
16700
01/05/2012 09:54 AMPosted by Nekronom
How come abilities like Strikes of Opportunity are permitted to proc Guth'alak while Seals are not?


Censure DoT ticks are not melee attacks in and of themselves. SoO is.


So we should suffer, in the form of massively reduced chance to proc this weapon, because we have more actual spells than you? You're already the best melee spec in the game right now, do you have to get the most usefulness out of the sword as well simply because you only have physical damage and I cast things like exo and holy wrath? There's no reason our damage from the sword was gutted as thoroughly and horribly as it now has been. I'm sure some middle ground could have been achieved, but that's apparently too much effort to go through.
Edited by Fredzilla on 1/5/2012 10:02 AM PST
100 Blood Elf Paladin
12970
01/05/2012 04:45 AMPosted by Balerion
Sounds more like Ret needs buffed in other areas than having to depend on a specific loot drop to bolster it's dps. You should be happy about the nerf as it will show your true deficiencies with the spec and they might actually attempt to buff the spec (though that probably won't happen till Mists...)


The only thing they will do is hurt us more.
They take said weapon and nerf it just for one set of the player base and kept it the same for everyone else. Not just nerf the weapon but nerf the class, idk, it stinks to high hell the same with our finisher being nerf down to 2/4/6 percent. It's blizzard's b.s. again. I'm actually fed up with it. They need to decide whether or not to even have ret or get rid of it because the more they keep messing with it the more they muck it up.
90 Dwarf Paladin
16700
01/05/2012 04:45 AMPosted by Balerion
Sounds more like Ret needs buffed in other areas than having to depend on a specific loot drop to bolster it's dps. You should be happy about the nerf as it will show your true deficiencies with the spec and they might actually attempt to buff the spec (though that probably won't happen till Mists...)


We've had plenty of true deficiencies in the last 7 years, and there has been no true fixes for any of them, really. We've been massively changed in every xpac. Change =/= fix.
100 Undead Warrior
12420



Censure DoT ticks are not melee attacks in and of themselves. SoO is.


So we should suffer, in the form of massively reduced chance to proc this weapon, because we have more actual spells than you? You're already the best melee spec in the game right now, do you have to get the most usefulness out of the sword as well simply because you only have physical damage and I cast things like exo and holy wrath? There's no reason our damage from the sword was gutted as thoroughly and horribly as it now has been. I'm sure some middle ground could have been achieved, but that's apparently too much effort to go through.


I'm not saying any class should "suffer" - merely pointing out that that non-melee attacks which are allowed to proc something that clearly says its procced on melee attacks is contradictory.

EDIT: If you feel Ret DPS is sufficiently low without what was clearly a bug propping up, its hardly the weapons fault, and issues with ret damage should be further explored quantitatively. Also, once an arms warrior gets a Gurth - thats pretty much it man. Arms scaling is heavily lumped into weapon damage scaling at the expense of other stat scaling, so dont expect to see huge improvements as more arms warriors get more gear after getting gurth.
Edited by Nekronom on 1/5/2012 10:18 AM PST
90 Blood Elf Paladin
13120
Censure dot was not procing the sword, seal procs were and seals are considered a melee attack.
Edited by Nambkab on 1/5/2012 10:23 AM PST
Well, time to put em away boys!

Just came out of two 25 minute 2s arena matches. Saw about 3 tentacles for each one. It went from one of the best weapons I'd ever seen and had fun with to "am I even wearing it?" Pair it with the fact it almost never attacked my main target, and often just went for pets even...

Basically just throwing stats away at this point.
Edited by Mathil on 1/5/2012 10:23 AM PST
90 Blood Elf Paladin
13120
It's still bis for ret pve, but no longer massively dps altering.
90 Dwarf Paladin
16700



So we should suffer, in the form of massively reduced chance to proc this weapon, because we have more actual spells than you? You're already the best melee spec in the game right now, do you have to get the most usefulness out of the sword as well simply because you only have physical damage and I cast things like exo and holy wrath? There's no reason our damage from the sword was gutted as thoroughly and horribly as it now has been. I'm sure some middle ground could have been achieved, but that's apparently too much effort to go through.


I'm not saying any class should "suffer" - merely pointing out that that non-melee attacks which are allowed to proc something that clearly says its procced on melee attacks is contradictory.


Well we have far fewer melee attacks than you, so having it only from melee attacks is, in fact, making us suffer as far as our ability to proc the weapon goes, and in turn completely destroying any competitiveness we had as far as dps goes.

Edit: If it's such a bug, why did SM and TAJ proc off SoT hits, as gurth was doing? It was never changed. The fact that the application/damage hit at 5 stacks of SoT can proc things like this HAS happened before with no call to change it, but now as we're becoming somewhat competitive in dps, people start complaining that the "bug" that no one cared about before is stupid and needs to be fixed.

Also, ret has crap mechanics right now and there are a lot of problems that need to be addressed. None of them will be addressed in mid-xpac, let alone mid-patch. This is a bandaid fix which is now becoming more like briefly running water over the stump where your arm used to be after having it lopped off.
Edited by Fredzilla on 1/5/2012 10:29 AM PST
85 Blood Elf Paladin
10735



So we should suffer, in the form of massively reduced chance to proc this weapon, because we have more actual spells than you? You're already the best melee spec in the game right now, do you have to get the most usefulness out of the sword as well simply because you only have physical damage and I cast things like exo and holy wrath? There's no reason our damage from the sword was gutted as thoroughly and horribly as it now has been. I'm sure some middle ground could have been achieved, but that's apparently too much effort to go through.


I'm not saying any class should "suffer" - merely pointing out that that non-melee attacks which are allowed to proc something that clearly says its procced on melee attacks is contradictory.


If you go look at even just the talent: http://www.wowhead.com/spell=85126/seals-of-command

It deals weapon damage on top of our abilities which trigger seal stacks on our target. This is how it's been for Shadowmourne, Tiny Abomination in a Jar, Varo'then's Brooch...the list could go on. And, this is what we have needed to keep items like these competitive for us alongside other melee classes.

And now it's changed on a whim and regarded as a "fix"...
Edited by Phantom on 1/5/2012 10:31 AM PST
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