Gurth: Far more broken in pvp/pve than DWTR

85 Blood Elf Paladin
4595
And just as a point of reference, going through world of logs (Mainly 25m Heroic since those logs are at the apex of min/maxing DPS and whatnot), You will clearly see that the only other spec that is ranking as high as Fire Mages consistently for HM Ultraxion (Perfect stand still DPS test) are Arms Warriors. Why? They are still getting a higher proc chance on the sword while Ret no longer does, so should we expect to see them continue to pull this DPS while we just sit at the bottom of the meters questioning why we haven't made Holy or Prot our mainspec?
90 Dwarf Paladin
16700
01/05/2012 12:02 PMPosted by Briccio
And just as a point of reference, going through world of logs (Mainly 25m Heroic since those logs are at the apex of min/maxing DPS and whatnot), You will clearly see that the only other spec that is ranking as high as Fire Mages consistently for HM Ultraxion (Perfect stand still DPS test) are Arms Warriors. Why? They are still getting a higher proc chance on the sword while Ret no longer does, so should we expect to see them continue to pull this DPS while we just sit at the bottom of the meters questioning why we haven't made Holy or Prot our mainspec?


Not only do they get twice as many procs as us now, or more, they're just a stronger dps than us overall, yet our "damage" is the problematic one. Woo.
Edited by Fredzilla on 1/5/2012 12:06 PM PST
1 Troll Hunter
0

FYI, if this was supposed to be an "adjustment" to Gurth for PvP reasons, please explain why the tentacles are receiving a 2 second boost to its duration?


Duration go up, damage go down. An adjustment to the burstiness of the proc, I'd imagine.


That's not true at all it's just an increase to duration. There was no nerf to damage output at all lol
85 Blood Elf Paladin
10735


Duration go up, damage go down. An adjustment to the burstiness of the proc, I'd imagine.


That's not true at all it's just an increase to duration. There was no nerf to damage output at all lol


You're right, there wasn't any nerf, but notice how it is a change made to the weapon that will affect every class that uses it.
1 Troll Hunter
0


You're right, there wasn't any nerf, but notice how it is a change made to the weapon that will affect every class that uses it.


True, however, it's intended to be better for some classes moreso others. Take note that gurth STILL... doesn't work on Ultraxion / Green Platform
85 Blood Elf Paladin
10735
01/05/2012 12:18 PMPosted by Derpyderpy
True, however, it's intended to be better for some classes moreso others.


When was this item ever, ever specifically intended to be better for some classes over others?



Take note that gurth STILL... doesn't work on Ultraxion / Green Platform


Move closer.
Edited by Phantom on 1/5/2012 12:21 PM PST
90 Dwarf Paladin
16700


You're right, there wasn't any nerf, but notice how it is a change made to the weapon that will affect every class that uses it.


True, however, it's intended to be better for some classes moreso others. Take note that gurth STILL... doesn't work on Ultraxion / Green Platform


What legitimate reason would there be to make the best 2h weapon better for arms or unholy or fury than it is for ret?
1 Troll Hunter
0
H Zoids Firelit is a great example. Now what class could benefit from it more? Itemization still exists whether or not you deny the claim. Gurth still has a chance to double proc from warriors mastery--> Deathknight (unholy) affects the damage output (admittedly unholy isn't a choice raiding spec in terms of dps) but small things like this makes weapons variably better than it is for other classes..

And to the move closer. If I can melee it a tentacle should be able to range it. Though I do understand the concept of move closer.

Fake Edit: I am in no way saying it's not a good weapon for rets lol Don't misunderstand I'm just stating variables and mechanics of other classes make it a better itemization than others.

Edit: I guess you can bring up the point of 2h wep specialization that is somewhat unique to ret to bolster another argument.
Edited by Derpyderpy on 1/5/2012 12:33 PM PST
90 Draenei Paladin
16840
01/04/2012 01:31 PMPosted by Kaivax
The specific bug was that paladins running Seal of Truth had two chances with every swing to trigger the proc with Gurthalak or Souldrinker. They now have one chance.


I just want to revisit this post even though others have already brought it up. Our Seal hits to my knowledge and experience have always counted as Melee hits and therefor have always been able to trigger effects like this.

This is largely needed because Retribution naturally has so few "true" melee attacks and our Seal hits allow us to keep up with other Melee DPS in that respect. They in effect keep us even.

This hotfix to Gurth flat out makes Retribution the worst eligible DPS to give this weapon too and makes it perform worse for Retribution then any other eligible DPS. It doesn't bring us in line with the other classes using it, it flat out makes it worse for us.

So are we going to see any logic behind this, any fixes to bring the other classes in line with us now or any fixes to bring us back in line with them? Or just the standard silence and let the topic fade away.
85 Blood Elf Paladin
8580
I'm still more concerned with everything else that this will impact... If the nerf to Gurth also affects Souldrinker...

Does the nerf also affect:
Bone-Link Fetish
Vessel of Acceleration
Apparatus of Khaz'goroth


Etc... The fact that an ability that can so drastically affect so many aspects about paladins gearing/output was hotfixed without testing, feedback, or clarification is a rookie move. I'd expect far more from someone who has been doing this for as long as blizzard has.
Edited by Holycrít on 1/5/2012 12:56 PM PST
85 Blood Elf Paladin
10735
01/05/2012 12:29 PMPosted by Derpyderpy
H Zoids Firelit is a great example. Now what class could benefit from it more? Itemization still exists whether or not you deny the claim. Gurth still has a chance to double proc from warriors mastery--> Deathknight (unholy) affects the damage output (admittedly unholy isn't a choice raiding spec in terms of dps) but small things like this makes weapons variably better than it is for other classes..

Not to the point where it goes from being 30% better than the average class's benefit of the weapon to 43% below the average. That's not how it should work. Look back to around page 12 or so of this thread and look at some of the numbers posted.

Fake Edit: I am in no way saying it's not a good weapon for rets lol Don't misunderstand I'm just stating variables and mechanics of other classes make it a better itemization than others.

Edit: I guess you can bring up the point of 2h wep specialization that is somewhat unique to ret to bolster another argument.


What argument? Ret's Two-Handed Weapon Specialization means nothing about Gurthalak's tentacle proc chance per minute when compared to other classes. That ability is only there because Ret attacks so much more slowly than other melee classes...no argument concerning Gurthalak there.
90 Undead Warrior
11220
01/05/2012 12:29 PMPosted by Derpyderpy
Gurth still has a chance to double proc from warriors mastery-->


The warrior mastery is an actual, second melee swing. Heres a question - does a combat rogues mastery (main gauche) or an MM hunters mastery (wild quiver) allow them to proc weapons equivalent for those specs (vishanka, for hunters, for example)?
85 Blood Elf Paladin
4595
I'll just throw this out there, I fully expect action to be taken here, as I expect a lot of others to. There are two options here, either the changes can be reverted (Check page 12 for exact mathematical reasoning as to why it was less percentage variation between classes able to use Gurthalak than it is NOW) or Arms mastery can be treated the same as our seal of truth when speaking of chance to proc the sword, and further, make the damage the tentacle deals unaffected by Unholy DK mastery. It is quite apparent there was no extreme consideration when dealing with this issue. This "hotfix" fixed nothing, it made MORE of a mess.
85 Troll Death Knight
12790

I think you misunderstand.

The dot portion wasn't causing the proc. The seal proc on hit was, and that is what they fixed (or are about to fix).

I think its fine, more or less, but they should add spells to what can proc it (but not ranged attacks) because this might swing ret from too many procs to too few when many ret GCDs aren't spend on weapon attacks, while warriors almost always do a weapon attack every GCD, and sometimes more when heroic strike can be used.

That'd be a problem for unholy too if their mastery didn't benefit, so maybe add spells too but prevent unholy mastery from increasing it.


It shouldn't be a problem for Unholy at all. We already swing Gurth at a fast pace, and when that's coupled with our half-second GCD, we get plenty of procs on average (the typical RNG scenarios apply). Yes, we use spells, but they are spread out between many more melee attacks. We do have a section of our rotation where we just spam Death Coil, but that spamming only tends to last all of 2.5-3.5 seconds, and we only have to commit to that every 30 seconds.
90 Dwarf Paladin
16700
01/05/2012 01:15 PMPosted by Nekronom
Gurth still has a chance to double proc from warriors mastery-->


The warrior mastery is an actual, second melee swing. Heres a question - does a combat rogues mastery (main gauche) or an MM hunters mastery (wild quiver) allow them to proc weapons equivalent for those specs (vishanka, for hunters, for example)?


And our SoT application/weapon damage hit has ALWAYS been a melee hit for all intents and purposes. There was absolutely no warranted reason for changing it now, when even before the nerf we were still under a handful of other specs, such as arms.
85 Blood Elf Paladin
8315
01/05/2012 11:41 AMPosted by Recruit
id just like a statement on whether 0-1 procs per fight is appropriate for the sword


This.

I would also like at least an apology from the blue poster that posts on stuff he has no legitimate knowledge of saying:

"I apologize for the misinformation. It seems that I should understand the mechanics of what I am posting about before I actually make a post. It turns out it was indeed NOT censure proccing the sword, it was actually Seal of Truth. Now we understand all through Wrath and early cata this was intended, but now that Ret was actually competing with arms warrior and unholy DKs this is clearly unintended. This is now fixed and Rets can officially rejoice at being at the bottom of the meters again."
Edited by Adhal on 1/5/2012 1:30 PM PST
85 Orc Warrior
4845
01/05/2012 12:02 PMPosted by Briccio
And just as a point of reference, going through world of logs (Mainly 25m Heroic since those logs are at the apex of min/maxing DPS and whatnot), You will clearly see that the only other spec that is ranking as high as Fire Mages consistently for HM Ultraxion (Perfect stand still DPS test) are Arms Warriors. Why? They are still getting a higher proc chance on the sword while Ret no longer does, so should we expect to see them continue to pull this DPS while we just sit at the bottom of the meters questioning why we haven't made Holy or Prot our mainspec?


Arms Warriors, Warriors in general are high DPS on that fight because its a bit gimicky for us. We have a lot more rage on Ultraxion than we would normally have on a typicall tank and spank fight so we can spam heroic strike essentially.
90 Dwarf Paladin
16700
01/05/2012 01:24 PMPosted by Bloodletters
And just as a point of reference, going through world of logs (Mainly 25m Heroic since those logs are at the apex of min/maxing DPS and whatnot), You will clearly see that the only other spec that is ranking as high as Fire Mages consistently for HM Ultraxion (Perfect stand still DPS test) are Arms Warriors. Why? They are still getting a higher proc chance on the sword while Ret no longer does, so should we expect to see them continue to pull this DPS while we just sit at the bottom of the meters questioning why we haven't made Holy or Prot our mainspec?


Arms Warriors, Warriors in general are high DPS on that fight because its a bit gimicky for us. We have a lot more rage on Ultraxion than we would normally have on a typicall tank and spank fight so we can spam heroic strike essentially.


Arms is better than any other plate dps, and only rogues are giving them a run for their money as far as melee goes. You're like the 3rd or 4th best spec overall.
90 Human Paladin
10480
01/05/2012 01:15 PMPosted by Nekronom
Gurth still has a chance to double proc from warriors mastery-->


The warrior mastery is an actual, second melee swing. Heres a question - does a combat rogues mastery (main gauche) or an MM hunters mastery (wild quiver) allow them to proc weapons equivalent for those specs (vishanka, for hunters, for example)?


Yes, they do.
They are treated as normal melee/ranged attacks. Working as intended.

This change to Seal of Truth is an exception to the "working as intended" model. It's a forced exclusion of the procs for Gurth. Now, some of us are wondering if other trinkets are affected. also, would landslide be affected now with this hotfix.
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