Gurth: Far more broken in pvp/pve than DWTR

85 Blood Elf Paladin
10735
This change to Seal of Truth is an exception to the "working as intended" model. It's a forced exclusion of the procs for Gurth. Now, some of us are wondering if other trinkets are affected. also, would landslide be affected now with this hotfix.


And all of the precedent set for Retribution's mechanics by so many other weapons, trinkets, mechanics, and procs is thrown out the window for Gurthalak's (and Souldrinker's) proc.

Blizzard says nothing about their nerf, and we're left to ask questions as to why the precedent is ignored...

This is what I'm frustrated most about.
Edited by Phantom on 1/5/2012 1:40 PM PST
90 Blood Elf Paladin
10110
We had our time to shine in pve we were finally up there in dps. Now NERF

For me I was finally top damage good amount of the time... now I'm down to 9th on the list or lower

Going back to logs my guilds DK was tied with me all the time too with his sword I was never ahead by much now I'm way way under him
90 Dwarf Paladin
16700
01/05/2012 01:38 PMPosted by Phantom
This change to Seal of Truth is an exception to the "working as intended" model. It's a forced exclusion of the procs for Gurth. Now, some of us are wondering if other trinkets are affected. also, would landslide be affected now with this hotfix.


And all of the precedent set for Retribution's mechanics by so many other weapons, trinkets, mechanics, and procs is thrown out the window for Gurthalak's (and Souldrinker's) proc.

Blizzard says nothing about their nerf, and we're left to ask questions as to why the precedent is ignored...

This is what I'm frustrated most about.


Just makes me think of all the times they've said how closely they watch the forums, yet there's not so much as a whisper of anything from them with such a glaringly obvious problem.
90 Blood Elf Paladin
10110
Hm maybe they are watching my second post got delete =D

Mainly want a yes or a no or what you guys might do on this matter just this little "fix" hurt us a lot
Edited by Dythen on 1/5/2012 1:59 PM PST
1 Troll Hunter
0



What argument? Ret's Two-Handed Weapon Specialization means nothing about Gurthalak's tentacle proc chance per minute when compared to other classes. That ability is only there because Ret attacks so much more slowly than other melee classes...no argument concerning Gurthalak there.


I know I was just covering bases because I was going afk for anyone that would bring up the general DPS and Ilvl of the wep in comparison to the mace from gunship / ESS lol

@Nekronom Just get out already lol
I am primarily concerned if other melee-based proc items will be affected by this. If so it's a HUGE overall nerf to our DPS.
90 Human Paladin
10115
01/05/2012 02:23 PMPosted by Sigmar
I am primarily concerned if other melee-based proc items will be affected by this. If so it's a HUGE overall nerf to our DPS.

Not to mention if this affects Landslide uptime or not. We don't even know the true nature of what they changed because they haven't conveyed it clearly enough.
90 Blood Elf Paladin
10110
Here is also comparing a kill for this week and last week since this "fix"

My Tentacle of the Old Ones uptime/ticks
Last Week: 21.7% Ticks: 16596.0
This Week: 8.3% Ticks: 20066.3

DK Tentacle of the Old Ones uptime/ticks
Last Week: 22.0% Ticks: 27133.7
This Week: 7.9% Ticks: 30097.5

Fury Warrior Tentacle of the Old Ones uptime/ticks
Last Week: 19.5% Ticks: 19155.3
This Week: 18.7% Ticks: 18922.8
Edited by Dythen on 1/5/2012 2:34 PM PST
85 Orc Warrior
4845
01/05/2012 01:28 PMPosted by Fredzilla


Arms Warriors, Warriors in general are high DPS on that fight because its a bit gimicky for us. We have a lot more rage on Ultraxion than we would normally have on a typicall tank and spank fight so we can spam heroic strike essentially.


Arms is better than any other plate dps, and only rogues are giving them a run for their money as far as melee goes. You're like the 3rd or 4th best spec overall.


I'm aware of this. Arms is in a very good spot right now. It doesn't have that much to do with this weapon though. Like I said earlier, some warriors prefer the Heroic ESS over the normal Gurthalak anyway. As another warrior said earlier though, Arms Warriors shouldn't be scaling like crazy since most of their damage is in weapon damage whereas for Fury Warriors they gain a lot more from Attack Power.
90 Dwarf Paladin
16700


Arms is better than any other plate dps, and only rogues are giving them a run for their money as far as melee goes. You're like the 3rd or 4th best spec overall.


I'm aware of this. Arms is in a very good spot right now. It doesn't have that much to do with this weapon though. Like I said earlier, some warriors prefer the Heroic ESS over the normal Gurthalak anyway. As another warrior said earlier though, Arms Warriors shouldn't be scaling like crazy since most of their damage is in weapon damage whereas for Fury Warriors they gain a lot more from Attack Power.


In my brief perusal of worldoflogs, a lot of the top arms wars are using gurth. I think the proc contributes more than you think, considering your ability to proc it (currently the highest % chance) and the fact that they benefit from your crit (also highest, for wars in general as I don't know how arms and fury compare for crit %).
Community Manager
Note: I have doubled the post-limit cap on this thread.

There are several things that we want to follow-up on and clarify:

  • We noticed Retribution DPS was higher than we expected. We investigated and realized Gurthalak was the cause. We further realized (and several players independently discovered) that the weapon proc was activating twice as often for Retribution as intended.

  • Retribution was getting more than twice as many proc chances than we intended. This was caused by the application of Censure, not the dot itself ticking.

  • This was not an accidental bug fix of some sort. The proc was happening more often than we expected and desired, leading to damage higher than we expected and desired, so we took steps to fix it.

  • We changed the duration of Gurthalak’s proc some time ago. The 4.3.2 tooltip change simply acknowledges this fix. The weapon’s damage should not change in 4.3.2.

  • Gurthalak is still a fantastic weapon for Retribution paladins and any other two-handed DPS plate-wearers. The average DPS reduction is lower than the 10% figure some have quoted. The sword’s damage can be quite variable, and there are isolated cases where it may have briefly contributed 20% or more of someone’s damage, but those are statistical outliers.

  • Being nerfed is never fun. We get that. The increased proc chance was our mistake, as always, and we apologize for not catching it sooner. Retribution paladin damage for players without Gurthalak is where we intended it to be. We expect Retribution damage with this change to also end up where we intend it to be. If damage falls unacceptably low for some reason, we will certainly consider taking additional measures.

  • Again, thank you very much for all of the useful feedback. We pay close attention to these things.
    90 Dwarf Paladin
    16700
    Appreciate the response, but, based on the math shown earlier in this thread by sharrow (I think), why would you want the best weapon of the raid to be a good deal worse for us than for anyone else? Why would you purposely want our overall dps to be lower when specs such as arms and fire (purposely ignoring the legendary-getting rogues, for now) are so much higher than everyone else? Arms is currently the best melee dps spec, and 2nd overall behind fire, and they, based on the aforementioned math, are also getting the best or most chances to proc the best sword for plate dps in the game.
    85 Blood Elf Paladin
    4595


    Arms is better than any other plate dps, and only rogues are giving them a run for their money as far as melee goes. You're like the 3rd or 4th best spec overall.


    I'm aware of this. Arms is in a very good spot right now. It doesn't have that much to do with this weapon though. Like I said earlier, some warriors prefer the Heroic ESS over the normal Gurthalak anyway. As another warrior said earlier though, Arms Warriors shouldn't be scaling like crazy since most of their damage is in weapon damage whereas for Fury Warriors they gain a lot more from Attack Power.


    So I completely understand what you are saying. So the issue we have here is partially stemming from what you are telling us. You agree that Arms damage on average is higher than Ret's Damage. There is no argument there from either party. So then the biggest issue here is that why should Arms be allowed to hold an ADDITIONAL benefit from the sword (% of Proc chance from Arms mastery just to clarify) yet Retribution (Which I just stated is fairly far behind Arms damage and most other melee classes/specs for that matter now) has the only extra benefit we gained from the sword is taken away? Why do we end up with no extra gain from the sword now, but Unholy and Arms still come away with their added benefits?
    85 Blood Elf Paladin
    10735
    Note: I have doubled the post-limit cap on this thread.

    There are several things that we want to follow-up on and clarify:

  • We noticed Retribution DPS was higher than we expected. We investigated and realized Gurthalak was the cause. We further realized (and several players independently discovered) that the weapon proc was activating twice as often for Retribution as intended.
  • Retribution was getting more than twice as many proc chances than we intended. This was caused by the application of Censure, not the dot itself ticking.
  • This was not an accidental bug fix of some sort. The proc was happening more often than we expected and desired, leading to damage higher than we expected and desired, so we took steps to fix it.
  • We changed the duration of Gurthalak’s proc some time ago. The 4.3.2 tooltip change simply acknowledges this fix. The weapon’s damage should not change in 4.3.2.
  • Gurthalak is still a fantastic weapon for Retribution paladins and any other two-handed DPS plate-wearers. The average DPS reduction is lower than the 10% figure some have quoted. The sword’s damage can be quite variable, and there are isolated cases where it may have briefly contributed 20% or more of someone’s damage, but those are statistical outliers.
  • Being nerfed is never fun. We get that. The increased proc chance was our mistake, as always, and we apologize for not catching it sooner. Retribution paladin damage for players without Gurthalak is where we intended it to be. We expect Retribution damage with this change to also end up where we intend it to be. If damage falls unacceptably low for some reason, we will certainly consider taking additional measures.
  • Again, thank you very much for all of the useful feedback. We pay close attention to these things.


    Thank you for the response, but what a lot of us are curious about now is why the precedent of Seal of Truth's melee damage trigger was never an issue until now? Where was this "increased proc chance" for things like Shadowmourne, Tiny Abomination in a Jar, Landslide, Bone Link Fetish, and other mechanics which work on "melee damage"?

    The precedent of this mechanic is thrown out the window solely for Gurthalak, and that's what's most frustrating to me.
    Edited by Phantom on 1/5/2012 2:59 PM PST
    1 Troll Hunter
    0
    01/05/2012 02:55 PMPosted by Fredzilla
    Appreciate the response, but, based on the math shown earlier in this thread by sharrow (I think), why would you want the best weapon of the raid to be a good deal worse for us than for anyone else? Why would you purposely want our overall dps to be lower when specs such as arms and fire (purposely ignoring the legendary-getting rogues, for now) are so much higher than everyone else? Arms is currently the best melee dps spec, and 2nd overall behind fire, and they, based on the aforementioned math, are also getting the best or most chances to proc the best sword for plate dps in the game.


    You are going to be told that you are a utility class and should never match a pure dps. Just letting you know ahead of time.

    VVV to the guy below......... *Ret dps throughout the history of this game.. not just expansion lol
    Edited by Derpyderpy on 1/5/2012 3:00 PM PST
    90 Blood Elf Paladin
    13200
    The most important question is if we just lost our ability to have Seals proc trinkets and Landslide, as this would create a much lower drop in damage than just the "fix" for the sword. While I stand by the fact that I understand fixing the ability of Seals to proc the sword, ret dps was not obscene, with phenomenal rng pushing us up perhaps a little more than necessary. dropping from competing top 2-3 on meters to tenth with no change in player ability is not just "not fun" but downright frustrating. Particularly given the positioning of ret dps for the entire expansion.
    90 Blood Elf Paladin
    10110
    So you "expect" us to be mid or bottom of the pack? and "expect" our Gurth to be bad compared to other melee? DKs tentacle already do more damage than everyone else warriors got higher chance to proc it now look to rets... we have the lowest... so this is ok with you?
    90 Dwarf Paladin
    16700
    01/05/2012 02:59 PMPosted by Dythen
    So you "expect" us to be mid or bottom of the pack? and "expect" our Gurth to be bad compared to other melee? DKs tentacle already do more damage than everyone else warriors got higher chance to proc it now look to rets... we have the lowest... so this is ok with you?


    Don't forget tentacles crit based on user's crit chance, so warriors have the highest proc rate now AND their tentacles have the highest crit chance. Also, a ret having phenomenal rng would still lose to a warrior with the same rng.

    Hybrid tax strikes again?
    Edited by Fredzilla on 1/5/2012 3:03 PM PST
    85 Blood Elf Paladin
    4595


    http://elitistjerks.com/f81/t106913-arms_dps_4_0_cataclysm/p21/

    Around post 508 is where it gets interesting. Seems Deep Wounds doesn't, but Rend does, along with some other unexpected stuff.

    Even ignoring Rend and such, a look at some 10N Ultraxion parses shows that Unholy can expect about 55 chances at a proc every minute, and even when avoiding Mastery (as a non-Gurth UH will be doing) they get about 30% extra damage from their Mastery, so that's equivalent to about 70 chances/min.


    Arms looks to have about 78 chances/min, counting their Mastery.

    Fury, wielding one, has about 65 chances/min.

    Ret, without Seal of Truth has ~40/min. With it, ~95/min.

    So, 70 chances/min, or equivalent seems to be about the median. This gives the following variations:

    SPEC. Chance/Min % of median
    UH 55 71%
    UH inc. Mast. 70 100%
    Arms 78 111%
    Fury 65 93%
    Ret 40 57%
    Ret inc. SoT 95 136%

    Ret with SoT was less variant from the median than the new, nerfed, Ret, and by a considerable margin.

    That's called 'overnerfing', folks, especially when UH will put a higher priority on Mastery, increasing their DPS from the sword (see EJ's UH thread), and Arms seems to get more procs than I assumed.


    I am reposting this for people who are just coming into the thread and for Kaivax and other Community Managers who are keeping their eyes on the topic. The math clearly points out that Post-nerf, Retribution sticks out FURTHER than it did pre-nerf in comparison to the other specs in question.
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