Gurth: Far more broken in pvp/pve than DWTR

85 Human Paladin
7460
Does this mean that it is intended for Ret Paladins to fall behind Unholy DKs when both are using this weapon?

It might be that people who have noticed that they have fallen behind the unholy DKs in their raid group was just a case of bad RNG for them that night.
But what if after a few weeks it can be said that Rets are falling behind unholy DKs... is a small bump in the bonus of 25% to weapon damage for rets on the table?

Can you tell us what might change for rets if Gurthalak procing from SoT is off the table and rets just fall below where they are intended to be. Are we allowed to be privy to that information?
1 Troll Hunter
0
You know most older paladins shouldn't be surprised by this... was really overdo honestly lol I guess the amount of time being allowed to top meters on some fights got to our heads. Time to be benched again~

bad way to look at it they could be nerfing the icd or even making it so you cant have more than 1 up at a time.

There is no ICD. It's a simple 2% proc chance on melee attacks.
90 Dwarf Paladin
16700
Before they said they were happy with us having gaps in our rotation. I could live with it before. Now with SoT not proccing gurth, and showing good signs of not proccing other things, those gaps are going to horribly kill any proc-chance anythings for us because we have so few melee attacks combined with the gaps in our rotation. The previously stated math is going to apply in a very negative way to trinkets and weapon enchants and so on and so forth at this rate, which is a much larger problem than getting a few too many procs from one item (while still much closer to the median than after the change).
90 Blood Elf Paladin
10005
They need to look at the number instead of just saying "it's where we want" no you don't see it at all it seems x.x
Edited by Dythen on 1/5/2012 3:13 PM PST
85 Human Rogue
8415
Note: I have doubled the post-limit cap on this thread.

There are several things that we want to follow-up on and clarify:

  • We noticed Retribution DPS was higher than we expected. We investigated and realized Gurthalak was the cause. We further realized (and several players independently discovered) that the weapon proc was activating twice as often for Retribution as intended.
  • Retribution was getting more than twice as many proc chances than we intended. This was caused by the application of Censure, not the dot itself ticking.
  • This was not an accidental bug fix of some sort. The proc was happening more often than we expected and desired, leading to damage higher than we expected and desired, so we took steps to fix it.
  • We changed the duration of Gurthalak’s proc some time ago. The 4.3.2 tooltip change simply acknowledges this fix. The weapon’s damage should not change in 4.3.2.
  • Gurthalak is still a fantastic weapon for Retribution paladins and any other two-handed DPS plate-wearers. The average DPS reduction is lower than the 10% figure some have quoted. The sword’s damage can be quite variable, and there are isolated cases where it may have briefly contributed 20% or more of someone’s damage, but those are statistical outliers.
  • Being nerfed is never fun. We get that. The increased proc chance was our mistake, as always, and we apologize for not catching it sooner. Retribution paladin damage for players without Gurthalak is where we intended it to be. We expect Retribution damage with this change to also end up where we intend it to be. If damage falls unacceptably low for some reason, we will certainly consider taking additional measures.
  • Again, thank you very much for all of the useful feedback. We pay close attention to these things.


    Ok, so what I gather from this is, the dev team wants gurth to be drastically less powerful for ret than every other 2h DPS spec? They all have more melee abilities than us, and thus more chances to proc it... one problem fixed, another created, this is working backward not forward.
    90 Human Paladin
    10115
    Note: I have doubled the post-limit cap on this thread.

    There are several things that we want to follow-up on and clarify:

  • We noticed Retribution DPS was higher than we expected. We investigated and realized Gurthalak was the cause. We further realized (and several players independently discovered) that the weapon proc was activating twice as often for Retribution as intended.

  • I know I'm probably not going to get a response but I figured I would ask anyway and I'm not trying to be condescending here: where exactly are Retribution Paladins, "supposed to be?" Are we supposed to be further below Arms Warriors than we already are? If I recall correctly, Sweeping Strikes also procs it resulting in a disproportionate amount of procs for Arms Warriors compared to Fury Warriors or Unholy DKs, who are already further below in actual DPS. Could we expect a fix for Sweeping Strikes as well? Are Arms Warriors, Unholy DKs and Fury Warriors' overall DPS in the place where you, "intended?"

    01/05/2012 02:50 PMPosted by Kaivax
  • Gurthalak is still a fantastic weapon for Retribution paladins and any other two-handed DPS plate-wearers. The average DPS reduction is lower than the 10% figure some have quoted. The sword’s damage can be quite variable, and there are isolated cases where it may have briefly contributed 20% or more of someone’s damage, but those are statistical outliers.

  • I agree that the reduction is more in the range of 4-8%, depending on the RNG of course, but that is still a significant nerf, and it doesn't change the fact that Arms Warriors still outDPS all the other 2-handed melee specs.

    01/05/2012 02:50 PMPosted by Kaivax
  • Being nerfed is never fun. We get that. The increased proc chance was our mistake, as always, and we apologize for not catching it sooner. Retribution paladin damage for players without Gurthalak is where we intended it to be. We expect Retribution damage with this change to also end up where we intend it to be. If damage falls unacceptably low for some reason, we will certainly consider taking additional measures.

  • Well we don't know exactly how you accomplished the change, like if the nature of Censure application itself was changed or not. This could, most notably, affect Landslide uptime and to a lesser extent, Vessel of Acceleration uptime and Apparatus of Khazgaroth's reliability.
    Edited by Reeth on 1/5/2012 3:21 PM PST
    90 Blood Elf Paladin
    10005
    Note: I have doubled the post-limit cap on this thread.

    There are several things that we want to follow-up on and clarify:

  • We noticed Retribution DPS was higher than we expected. We investigated and realized Gurthalak was the cause. We further realized (and several players independently discovered) that the weapon proc was activating twice as often for Retribution as intended.
  • Retribution was getting more than twice as many proc chances than we intended. This was caused by the application of Censure, not the dot itself ticking.
  • This was not an accidental bug fix of some sort. The proc was happening more often than we expected and desired, leading to damage higher than we expected and desired, so we took steps to fix it.
  • We changed the duration of Gurthalak’s proc some time ago. The 4.3.2 tooltip change simply acknowledges this fix. The weapon’s damage should not change in 4.3.2.
  • Gurthalak is still a fantastic weapon for Retribution paladins and any other two-handed DPS plate-wearers. The average DPS reduction is lower than the 10% figure some have quoted. The sword’s damage can be quite variable, and there are isolated cases where it may have briefly contributed 20% or more of someone’s damage, but those are statistical outliers.
  • Being nerfed is never fun. We get that. The increased proc chance was our mistake, as always, and we apologize for not catching it sooner. Retribution paladin damage for players without Gurthalak is where we intended it to be. We expect Retribution damage with this change to also end up where we intend it to be. If damage falls unacceptably low for some reason, we will certainly consider taking additional measures.
  • Again, thank you very much for all of the useful feedback. We pay close attention to these things.


    Ok, so what I gather from this is, the dev team wants gurth to be drastically less powerful for ret than every other 2h DPS spec? They all have more melee abilities than us, and thus more chances to proc it... one problem fixed, another created, this is working backward not forward.


    They want us to be at the bottom again... sigh
    85 Troll Warlock
    7950
    OK, you say I'm exaggerating. Look at this log (since you want to cherry pick):

    http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/rt-ssp30nh5ateessqi/sum/damageDone/?s=5070&e=5411

    This is tank and spank heroic Baleroc
    The tentacle on this fight did MORE damage than my felhunter, my doomguard, my fiery imp, AND my ebon ipm COMBINED. I will say it again -- COMBINED.

    The week before the pally got Gurth, I was 5k over him on that same fight.

    If you seriously do not see a problem here, then you are blind. Why make a weapon that has a proc that does more damage than ALL of a pet class' pets combined? You don't think that's broken? Give me a break. Why even HAVE a pet class? Why not just delete warlocks altogether? Let's just make Gurthalak a new class and replace warlocks with it.

    This whole thing reminds me of Shadowmourne. All through Wrath, pvp was misery if you ran into a DK with SM. Raiding was a constant epeening of SM wielding DKs and others.

    So along comes cata, and lo and behold, something good for casters for once. A legendary staff. So we grind through 4 months of Firelands thinking we will finally have something at least competitive, if not dominant, and finally get the legendary, and two weeks later some hybrid class with a normal epic drop sword suddenly does WAY more damage, and utterly ****s in pvp--all over again.

    Why did I bother? Blizz said it would be BIS throughout Cata. They neglected to mention that melee weapons in 4.3 would render all caster gear obsolete.

    Blizzard has continued to illustrate why only 5% of mains are locks, and over 15% are paladins. Only sentimental idiots like me play locks anymore. Everyone else takes the easy road. The road Blizz continues to pave with gold.
    Edited by Bloodgypsy on 1/5/2012 3:21 PM PST
    100 Draenei Paladin
    17330
    Thank you for the response, but what a lot of us are curious about now is why the precedent of Seal of Truth's melee damage trigger was never an issue until now? Where was this "increased proc chance" for things like Shadowmourne, Tiny Abomination in a Jar, Landslide, Bone Link Fetish, and other mechanics which work on "melee damage"?

    The precedent of this mechanic is thrown out the window solely for Gurthalak, and that's what's most frustrating to me.


    This needs to be addressed. Our Seals have always interacted with procs of this nature as they interacted with Gurth before the nerf. What makes it any different now?

    And most importantly what does this mean for other effects like Bone Link Fetish and Landslide? That is something we need answers on.

    01/05/2012 02:50 PMPosted by Kaivax
    We expect Retribution damage with this change to also end up where we intend it to be.


    And just why do you intend for us to be inferior to other classes and specs, before this change we weren't the top and with it we're now roughly middle of the pack from what I gather.

    Was there something terribly wrong in the World of Warcraft when Retribution was pushing High Mid?
    85 Blood Elf Paladin
    4595
    Enough is enough really, has the Blizzard Development team been completely unaware of how Ret damage has been for the previous patches of this expansion? They spent the later part of FL up to 4.3 release giving ret slight buffs to help them compete with other DPS classes, and then when we suddenly have a weapon that actually helps us fulfill that potential it gets nerfed and the best explanation we get for it is "Well... sorry but it had the POSSIBILITY to let Retribution do as much DPS as a fire mage."
    85 Orc Warrior
    4845


    I'm aware of this. Arms is in a very good spot right now. It doesn't have that much to do with this weapon though. Like I said earlier, some warriors prefer the Heroic ESS over the normal Gurthalak anyway. As another warrior said earlier though, Arms Warriors shouldn't be scaling like crazy since most of their damage is in weapon damage whereas for Fury Warriors they gain a lot more from Attack Power.


    So I completely understand what you are saying. So the issue we have here is partially stemming from what you are telling us. You agree that Arms damage on average is higher than Ret's Damage. There is no argument there from either party. So then the biggest issue here is that why should Arms be allowed to hold an ADDITIONAL benefit from the sword (% of Proc chance from Arms mastery just to clarify) yet Retribution (Which I just stated is fairly far behind Arms damage and most other melee classes/specs for that matter now) has the only extra benefit we gained from the sword is taken away? Why do we end up with no extra gain from the sword now, but Unholy and Arms still come away with their added benefits?


    Ret Paladins were doing very well before this fix. There were a few fights that they outperformed Arms in and the other ones they weren't far behind. I know we've seen the math early on, on how this change will affect your class but those aren't definitive yet.
    83 Human Warrior
    11250

  • Gurthalak is still a fantastic weapon for Retribution paladins and any other two-handed DPS plate-wearers. The average DPS reduction is lower than the 10% figure some have quoted. The sword’s damage can be quite variable, and there are isolated cases where it may have briefly contributed 20% or more of someone’s damage, but those are statistical outliers.
  • [li]


    Posting from my phone so apologies for any ruined HTML.

    This was never a "nerf paladins" thread. For the person who claimed I linked to a bugged log, check again. It was two seperate logs each with similar results. Yes, H morchok is a high movement fight, which inflates the tentacles damage done. But the fact is that a proc from a weapon ever being higher damage than a main rotation ability is fairly ludicrous, let alone top damage done overall. This is also silly if you examine the procs other weapons have, they are all more or less in line with each other and a good trade off for loss of stats. Only gurth is the outlier and ridiculously so. It's better than the proc from legendary weapons, which is broken if you realize that it doesn't take months to get. Combined with the prevalence of "extra damage" proc trinkets, ds items are making pvp a nightmare of burst. Gurth is again the outlier here- it will do almost 70k damage on resil over its proc, and slows.
    1 Troll Hunter
    0
    @Bloodgypsy

    Way to pick out outliers + gift of the RNG gods to support a claim on a single sample.

    He also has a fairly long execute phase (<20% HP) which allows arms to use more executes (1.5 second global) instead of slams (0.5 sec cast+global) improving melee hit frequency during that period.

    It also allows Rets more HoW attacks, which can proc the tentacles.

    Second is sample size. You had mentioned that you had looked over "some" parses, but how many is "some"? Top 5 for each spec? 10? 200? Even if you were to evaluate the top 200 parses for every spec, its still an extremely small sample size relative to everyone attempting this content and really only reflects the "best" who actually post logs. There is really no easy way to correctly account for RNG either - because the tentacles are a chance on hit anyone who has a good RNG day will still be beat by someone who has a great RNG day, and that of course doesn't account for the hundreds of thousands of players who experience bad RNG in any sort of average. WoL is a metric of best case scenerios to date, not a metric of perfect mechanic performance with perfect median proc rates.

    I didn't look at actual proc rates, because of this problem. I looked at the number of attacks made that could proc a tentacle over the course of a parse, and then converted that to attacks per minute. It is true that some specs will lose more attacks whilst out of phase, but I expect skilled players to hit the button as late as possible, and that the relative loss will actually be about the same.


    Another thing that should be pointed out (while not specifically related to the above quoted post) is using % damage as a metric. For example saying the procs did something like "It did X% of Class A's DPS but only did Y% of Class B's DPS, unfair!" This is window licking stupid because any class which deals a high amount of DPS from normal attacks will show a lower percentage of bonus damage contribution relative to overall damage versus a class doing lower regular damage if the amount of bonus damage is roughly equal in either case. In other words, if, for example, the difference between DK and ret overall DPS with the weapon was statistically insignificant, but the DK gained 6% of thier overall DPS from the weapon while the Ret only gained 4%, thats perfectly acceptable because it means that the DK did less damage from thier regular damage sources. (I'm not suggesting that the difference between DK and ret is true or accurate, just using them for the purposes of illustration).

    I am aware of that, and it's why I'm interested in how much DPS it's adding, not what percentage. Also, assuming that the players are hitting their buttons as often as each other Gurth is a bigger percentage increase to a poorly geared player, especially for Fury and Ret (the tentacles and their proc rate don't scale with anything they care about).

    If people want Gurth and simelar weapons normalized for every like class in every encounter, the only way to accomplish that is to introduce internal cooldowns and adjust damage and proc chance accordingly, because everyone will always have different factors in class and encounters adding variabillity otherwise.

    I don't want it normalised. I want it to not be enormously worse for one spec than the others, which it now is.

    You point about DKs, if it panned out, would bring them up closer to arms, BTW, and make Ret's rate trail the mean & median even more.

    EDIT: Note that if it's not providing at least ~3% of our DPS from the procs, on average, the proc doesn't make up for the lost secondary stats.
    Edited by Sharrow on 1/5/2012 3:27 PM PST
    85 Orc Death Knight
    8160
    And again Death Knight critical bonuses with this weapon still being ignored by blizzard again!
    85 Draenei Death Knight
    3650
    I get that Gurth procs were nerfed off of application of seal damage, but how does this affect other things like trinkets that proc off melee hits and the landslide enchant?

    Eye of unmaking
    Apparatus of Khaz'goroth
    Vessel of Acceleration
    Bone-link fetish
    Varothen's Broach
    Rosary of Light
    Landslide
    Edited by Spare on 1/5/2012 3:30 PM PST
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