Gurth: Far more broken in pvp/pve than DWTR

85 Orc Warrior
4845
@Bloodgypsy

Way to pick out outliers + gift of the RNG gods to support a claim on a single sample.


Not to mention its a Heroic Domo parse where the Paladin has 100% increased damage through the majority of the fight.
85 Human Paladin
14640
Ret was already far behind Arms before the nerf, with nerf you are lowering us to the bottom of ranks. Look at freaking dpsbot for once.

http://raidbots.com/dpsbot/Overall_DPS/25H/100/14/60/default/

Is the bottom is where you intend the Ret to be?

Why I'm even playing this game, jeez.
90 Gnome Priest
11190
01/05/2012 03:02 PMPosted by Fredzilla
Hybrid tax strikes again?

No, because everyone who can use it is a hybrid.
90 Human Paladin
10930
I get that Gurth procs were nerfed off of application of seal damage, but how does this affect other things like trinkets that proc off melee hits and the landslide enchant?

Eye of unmaking
Apparatus of Khaz'goroth
Vessel of Acceleration
Bone-link fetish
Varothen's Broach
Rosary of Light
Landslide


Eye never procced off Seals. Neither did Apparatus. I haven't had the other three so I can't say for sure, but it's a good chance those trinkets didn't proc off Seals either.

Why was the response to flat nerf it, resulting in a PvE loss which will cause Retribution to likely slip further back? Why does this spec always get to start out strong but fail in the back end? It's like a cruel joke, after two tiers of poor to middling performance, Retribution finally showed up ready to play, only to have its toy ball taken away. I would agree with anyone that balancing a spec should not be based on a proc weapon, and this is the result.

Funnily enough, balancing on this is less problematic than rebalancing Ret overall (in terms of PvP). You know that high down-time you mentioned? Well that and the number of non-strikes in our rotation mean that every hit has to land very hard. Thus almost any buff to Ret's DPS means bursts become even bigger as well. About the only things that can be tuned upwards without doing this are auto-attacks, and that's inelegant and messy to do without raising everything else as well (because so much scale on weapon damage, i.e. auto-attack damage), and Seals. Both are passive, something Blizzard's been trying to avoid (and has, to a large degree, with Ret).
90 Dwarf Paladin
16700
I get that Gurth procs were nerfed off of application of seal damage, but how does this affect other things like trinkets that proc off melee hits and the landslide enchant?

Eye of unmaking
Apparatus of Khaz'goroth
Vessel of Acceleration
Bone-link fetish
Varothen's Broach
Rosary of Light
Landslide


Procs off of melee attacks have, up until this point in time, always been able to be procced from SoT. Now, for all I know, none of those may proc from SoT, which would greatly reduce all of their effectiveness to ret.

How come abilities like Strikes of Opportunity are permitted to proc Guth'alak while Seals are not?


Censure DoT ticks are not melee attacks in and of themselves. SoO is.

Arrrgh!!!!!!

Censure Ticks never proced the thing. What was proccing it was Seal of Truth damage procs, a different thing that does act like a melee strike in many ways, that does proc many things that proc 'on melee attack', and which has often done so in the past.
90 Human Paladin
13535
Note: I have doubled the post-limit cap on this thread.

There are several things that we want to follow-up on and clarify:

  • We noticed Retribution DPS was higher than we expected. We investigated and realized Gurthalak was the cause. We further realized (and several players independently discovered) that the weapon proc was activating twice as often for Retribution as intended.
  • Retribution was getting more than twice as many proc chances than we intended. This was caused by the application of Censure, not the dot itself ticking.
  • This was not an accidental bug fix of some sort. The proc was happening more often than we expected and desired, leading to damage higher than we expected and desired, so we took steps to fix it.
  • We changed the duration of Gurthalak’s proc some time ago. The 4.3.2 tooltip change simply acknowledges this fix. The weapon’s damage should not change in 4.3.2.
  • Gurthalak is still a fantastic weapon for Retribution paladins and any other two-handed DPS plate-wearers. The average DPS reduction is lower than the 10% figure some have quoted. The sword’s damage can be quite variable, and there are isolated cases where it may have briefly contributed 20% or more of someone’s damage, but those are statistical outliers.
  • Being nerfed is never fun. We get that. The increased proc chance was our mistake, as always, and we apologize for not catching it sooner. Retribution paladin damage for players without Gurthalak is where we intended it to be. We expect Retribution damage with this change to also end up where we intend it to be. If damage falls unacceptably low for some reason, we will certainly consider taking additional measures.
  • Again, thank you very much for all of the useful feedback. We pay close attention to these things.


    This needs considerable more explanation now than before. Without Gurthalak Ret was very low on DPS, and you're explaining that was intentional? I thought we were past this "hybrid tax" thing. Ret is the ONLY DPS spec for paladin, so we don't have an option to re-spec into a more performing spec like other DPS classes such as DK and Warrior. You also didn't expound on what was changed. Did the seal get removed from activating Landslide, Bone Link Fetish, Apparatus, etc? If so, how do you justify that big of a hit to one specific class based on a weapon that provides the same benefit to other melee with no repercussions? Strikes of Oppurtunity, Wild Quiver, and Main Gauche can still proc trinkets and weapons. Someone else also mentioned Sweeping Strikes. Applying Rend will trigger it as well. This adjustment specifically singled out one class' spec (the only DPS spec at that) and dropped it back to where it was prior to recent buffs. There's no "bring the player, not the class" when stuff like this done to one class can prevent a player from being brought to participate in anything.

    Combined with the prevalence of "extra damage" proc trinkets, ds items are making pvp a nightmare of burst. Gurth is again the outlier here- it will do almost 70k damage on resil over its proc, and slows.


    That would be a PvP issue, it should never have affected PvE this dramatically. No exceptions. Whether it's a legendary or a raid epic if it's good, it's good. A lot of plate DPS players were running PvP weapons in T11 PvE due to how good they were compared to non-raid alternatives. Adjusting the tentacles to scale with resilience should have been the proper fix to your complaint, but instead it got the "to the ground" treatment for one spec of one class in PvE.
    Edited by Boogieknight on 1/5/2012 3:56 PM PST
    90 Draenei Warrior
    14695
    I do hope Warrior have those blue response to explain why double nerf Fury warrior.

    Pally privilege ... so sad


    We had one. That we scaled too well with gear so we'd recieve nerfs as we progressed through the tiers. Oh! And here's a hotfix to your bleeds just like you always wanted! Promse we'll buff you if you lag behind! *Crossed fingers*

    Just curious - since censure is no longer considered physical damage in the eyes of procs, does this mean that the whirlwind shared drop trinket just got curb stomped too?

    Bone-Link Fetish

    I don't know, but it was recently fixed so that it worked properly with SoT, so I hope not. The tanking 1-Hander was stomped as well, though it may have been an actual adjustment to bring it in line with how well it worked for warriors.
    1 Troll Hunter
    0

    We had one. That we scaled too well with gear so we'd recieve nerfs as we progressed through the tiers. Oh! And here's a hotfix to your bleeds just like you always wanted! Promse we'll buff you if you lag behind! *Crossed fingers*


    http://raidbots.com/dpsbot/#31000


    Oh wait you're talking about fury. Just go arms.
    Edited by Derpyderpy on 1/5/2012 3:46 PM PST
    90 Human Paladin
    10930
    I get that Gurth procs were nerfed off of application of seal damage, but how does this affect other things like trinkets that proc off melee hits and the landslide enchant?

    Eye of unmaking
    Apparatus of Khaz'goroth
    Vessel of Acceleration
    Bone-link fetish
    Varothen's Broach
    Rosary of Light
    Landslide


    Procs off of melee attacks have, up until this point in time, always been able to be procced from SoT. Now, for all I know, none of those may proc from SoT, which would greatly reduce all of their effectiveness to ret.


    Eye and Apparatus never procced off Seals.
    85 Blood Elf Paladin
    5735
    Guys, it's a rule at Blizzard to nerf ret at least once a patch, regardless of the size of the patch.

    Arms Warriors, Warriors in general are high DPS on that fight because its a bit gimicky for us. We have a lot more rage on Ultraxion than we would normally have on a typicall tank and spank fight so we can spam heroic strike essentially.

    How about Morchok? UH tops out fractionally higher on 25N than Arms, Frost clearly higher (but they're dual-wielding, so not really part of this discussion), and Ret's a little lower, dropping to clearly lower with the nerf. Considering that DKs have ranged attacks, and even Ret's have a couple of ranged moves, I'm seeing a pattern of Arms being really strong.

    Looking at madness, Arms is simply the best plate DPS (though Frost DW is close behind). Ret was already one of the lower ones (better than Fury for good player, worse for awesome players). Now it will be very clearly the worst.
    100 Blood Elf Paladin
    13860
    01/01/2012 03:45 PMPosted by Ciaro
    Meleecylsm continues. Melee were top dps on most fights in FLs yet were somehow still whiny and were pandered to by blizzard.


    I'm sorry to disagree, but it has been casterclysm the entire expansion. Ranged have had an advantage over melee like no other consistently, in both PvE and PvP, but mainly PvP.

    Caster's are still pretty much better than melee in most cases.
    85 Blood Elf Paladin
    9410
    01/05/2012 02:50 PMPosted by Kaivax
    If damage falls unacceptably low for some reason, we will certainly consider taking additional measures.


    i don't care about the nerf one way or another but this part of your post never happens

    OK, you say I'm exaggerating. Look at this log (since you want to cherry pick):

    http://www.worldoflogs.com/reports/rt-ssp30nh5ateessqi/sum/damageDone/?s=5070&e=5411

    This is tank and spank heroic Baleroc
    The tentacle on this fight did MORE damage than my felhunter, my doomguard, my fiery imp, AND my ebon ipm COMBINED. I will say it again -- COMBINED.

    I dind't cherry pick. I simply looked at your four most recent DS parses, and looked at a couple of fights where both you and the Ret would have a good uptime.

    This whole thing reminds me of Shadowmourne. All through Wrath, pvp was misery if you ran into a DK with SM. Raiding was a constant epeening of SM wielding DKs and others.

    SM wasn't all that unless you were Fury, though it was an issue in PvP. However, it was just one of many issues with burst in LK PvP.

    Blizzard has continued to illustrate why only 5% of mains are locks, and over 15% are paladins. Only sentimental idiots like me play locks anymore. Everyone else takes the easy road. The road Blizz continues to pave with gold.

    Pffft. Locks have out-DPSed paladins all expansion. They do better in organised PvP, too. You'll need to look elsewhere for your pity.
    90 Blood Elf Paladin
    9465
    01/05/2012 04:06 PMPosted by Llyse
    If damage falls unacceptably low for some reason, we will certainly consider taking additional measures.


    i don't care about the nerf one way or another but this part of your post never happens


    /waves at a fire Mage.
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