Gurth: Far more broken in pvp/pve than DWTR

85 Blood Elf Paladin
5740
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dZQPkbZUsi8
85 Draenei Paladin
7600
Hello,

I have played ret paladin nonstop ever since the game was released. Alot of you may know who I am as ive made a name for myself. After receiving gurthalak I was pleased to see how I was able to compete near the top of the meters for the first time in over a year. We werent overpowered, infact we were still behind arms warriors and fire mages on patchwerk type fights (ultraxion), which is our bread and butter at the moment. Sure the proc might have been stronger than it is suppose to be, I wont argue with that, but it made us competitive. There was a ret pally in every world first kill this year. You know how that makes some of us feel that have been playing as one of the worst DPS classes in the history of the game? It feels amazing. It feels as if we are actually worth being in a raid and we deserve to have the raid spot that we do have. It makes us feel as if we are a main contributing factor to a kill instead of the weak 40 yard alternative to the 3% damage buff because fire mages were buffed about 10x too much.

I never post on the official forums, ever, but I have come here with a plea. I think I speak for the entire ret paladin community when I ask you kindly, please do one of 3 things:

1) revert the change. Seals have worked this way for a while

2) give the sword and internal cooldown and adjust the damage, perhaps remove the slowing effect to balance pvp. Even if its a 30 second ICD you can still balance it for all classes in a much more fair manor than it is at the moment.

3) make the sword proc off of all direct damage, not just physical, the best solution IMO

I had to remove 403 gurthalak and put on 410 slicer because at the moment its much better than the 403 gurthalak by the way all the secondary stats on the specimen slicer and the top end react with the ret cooldowns and 4 peice t13, along with apparatus.

It will be a sad sad day if when a 416 gurthalak drops and I pass it to the other dps in my guild because its a mere sidegrade over the 410 specimen slicer.
90 Dwarf Paladin
16700
Hello,

I have played ret paladin nonstop ever since the game was released. Alot of you may know who I am as ive made a name for myself. After receiving gurthalak I was pleased to see how I was able to compete near the top of the meters for the first time in over a year. We werent overpowered, infact we were still behind arms warriors and fire mages on patchwerk type fights (ultraxion), which is our bread and butter at the moment. Sure the proc might have been stronger than it is suppose to be, I wont argue with that, but it made us competitive. There was a ret pally in every world first kill this year. You know how that makes some of us feel that have been playing as one of the worst DPS classes in the history of the game? It feels amazing. It feels as if we are actually worth being in a raid and we deserve to have the raid spot that we do have. It makes us feel as if we are a main contributing factor to a kill instead of the weak 40 yard alternative to the 3% damage buff because fire mages were buffed about 10x too much.

I never post on the official forums, ever, but I have come here with a plea. I think I speak for the entire ret paladin community when I ask you kindly, please do one of 3 things:

1) revert the change. Seals have worked this way for a while

2) give the sword and internal cooldown and adjust the damage, perhaps remove the slowing effect to balance pvp. Even if its a 30 second ICD you can still balance it for all classes in a much more fair manor than it is at the moment.

3) make the sword proc off of all direct damage, not just physical, the best solution IMO

I had to remove 403 gurthalak and put on 410 slicer because at the moment its much better than the 403 gurthalak by the way all the secondary stats on the specimen slicer and the top end react with the ret cooldowns and 4 peice t13, along with apparatus.

It will be a sad sad day if when a 416 gurthalak drops and I pass it to the other dps in my guild because its a mere sidegrade over the 410 specimen slicer.


Seconded.
85 Orc Warrior
4845

Arms Warriors, Warriors in general are high DPS on that fight because its a bit gimicky for us. We have a lot more rage on Ultraxion than we would normally have on a typicall tank and spank fight so we can spam heroic strike essentially.

How about Morchok? UH tops out fractionally higher on 25N than Arms, Frost clearly higher (but they're dual-wielding, so not really part of this discussion), and Ret's a little lower, dropping to clearly lower with the nerf. Considering that DKs have ranged attacks, and even Ret's have a couple of ranged moves, I'm seeing a pattern of Arms being really strong.

Looking at madness, Arms is simply the best plate DPS (though Frost DW is close behind). Ret was already one of the lower ones (better than Fury for good player, worse for awesome players). Now it will be very clearly the worst.


I'm seeing Ret above Arms on every parse of Heroic Morchok. Top 100, all parses, 90th percentile etc.

Madness is very similar to Ultraxion, not because of extra damage but because of the extra haste. Warriors can almost spam heroic strike on this fight as well. Bladestorm is an awesome burst AoE for the bloods, Arms has a good cleave and their Execute phase is really strong which is buffed by Cataclysm.
90 Blood Elf Paladin
10110
Hello,

I have played ret paladin nonstop ever since the game was released. Alot of you may know who I am as ive made a name for myself. After receiving gurthalak I was pleased to see how I was able to compete near the top of the meters for the first time in over a year. We werent overpowered, infact we were still behind arms warriors and fire mages on patchwerk type fights (ultraxion), which is our bread and butter at the moment. Sure the proc might have been stronger than it is suppose to be, I wont argue with that, but it made us competitive. There was a ret pally in every world first kill this year. You know how that makes some of us feel that have been playing as one of the worst DPS classes in the history of the game? It feels amazing. It feels as if we are actually worth being in a raid and we deserve to have the raid spot that we do have. It makes us feel as if we are a main contributing factor to a kill instead of the weak 40 yard alternative to the 3% damage buff because fire mages were buffed about 10x too much.

I never post on the official forums, ever, but I have come here with a plea. I think I speak for the entire ret paladin community when I ask you kindly, please do one of 3 things:

1) revert the change. Seals have worked this way for a while

2) give the sword and internal cooldown and adjust the damage, perhaps remove the slowing effect to balance pvp. Even if its a 30 second ICD you can still balance it for all classes in a much more fair manor than it is at the moment.

3) make the sword proc off of all direct damage, not just physical, the best solution IMO

I had to remove 403 gurthalak and put on 410 slicer because at the moment its much better than the 403 gurthalak by the way all the secondary stats on the specimen slicer and the top end react with the ret cooldowns and 4 peice t13, along with apparatus.

It will be a sad sad day if when a 416 gurthalak drops and I pass it to the other dps in my guild because its a mere sidegrade over the 410 specimen slicer.


Seconded.

Thirded
85 Blood Elf Paladin
8315
Ret is ahead on morchok because we have ways to stay in black blood
90 Human Paladin
10480
I like how this morphed from a, "Gurth is stronger than a Legendary Staff, especially in PvP", to, "Nerf Ret, because they are getting a smaller increase in chance to proc a Tentacle than other melee that can use it.

End results:
Gurth got a buff in 4.3.2
Ret saw an approximate 50% reduction in proc chance, which brings it well below the median for proc chances across all eligible classes. Furthermore, there is a strong possibility that this will affect other items that have proc'd from SoT in the past.

Not QQ, just a summary of the observations made.

To the warlock above: I feel your pain. I had Shadowmourne, and watched as some classes that did poor mechanics or were just being lazy dominated fights just because they were ranged. Nothing I could do about it except keep trying to find a better way.

The last two tiers (weapon aside), I could execute everything perfectly, but my damage/DPS would be higher or lower for the exact same boss due to one factor that has affected this class: RNG.

Add to it the RNG of Dev/Blue combined with misinformation/misconception, and spread it over almost the entire lifespan of WoW, and that's what we have.

I've learned to deal with it over the years. There are other ways to resolve this, but I'm not the one being paid to code the game, and plenty of other smart people have left very viable suggestions in previous posts. I'm the guy just summing it all up for the layman.
Edited by Odenknight on 1/5/2012 4:39 PM PST
On what targets? If you were testing on dummies, it's to be expected as many of them have only 1 health.
85 Blood Elf Paladin
9410
01/05/2012 04:08 PMPosted by Holycrít


i don't care about the nerf one way or another but this part of your post never happens


/waves at a fire Mage.


the exception doesnt prove the rule fyi

especially considering no more content patches are coming til mop
85 Orc Warlock
8920
01/05/2012 04:25 PMPosted by Butosai
It makes us feel as if we are a main contributing factor to a kill instead of the weak 40 yard alternative to the 3% damage buff because fire mages were buffed about 10x too much.

To even expand on this, they nerfed it because damage was too high for rets, yet you look at all the Heroic DS logs, and fire mages are on top of just about everyone. It's where fire is the best single target / AoE / Cleave damage in the whole game. What I don't get is how is Ret damage fine where it is now, but still so far behind fire mages on every boss fight? What does that show you about balance.
90 Dwarf Paladin
16700
01/05/2012 04:50 PMPosted by Dangles
It makes us feel as if we are a main contributing factor to a kill instead of the weak 40 yard alternative to the 3% damage buff because fire mages were buffed about 10x too much.

To even expand on this, they nerfed it because damage was too high for rets, yet you look at all the Heroic DS logs, and fire mages are on top of just about everyone. It's where fire is the best single target / AoE / Cleave damage in the whole game. What I don't get is how is Ret damage fine where it is now, but still so far behind fire mages on every boss fight? What does that show you about balance.


As far as ret on wol goes, that was prenerf, and that wasnt fine. Our dps was too high on all those parses, but fires is apparently a-ok.
I just want to emphasize something for those who are concerned that Gurth did 'too much' damage as a percentage of Ret's DPS. This is/was effectively 'self-nerfing' for Ret as we don't stack Haste, Haste does little to increase the proc rate of the sword, and thus as gear improves the percentage of DPS provided by the procs will drop for Ret quite smartly. Note that this is not as much the case for Arms and Unholy, as their masteries improve the proc rate (Arms) or damage done (Unholy), and Arms stacks Crit, which the tentacles inherit (note that Ret does also, to an extent, but despite that our Crit rate sucks and hasn't risen much over the course of the expansion). In the case of Fury, well it's like Ret, but with a ton of Crit, so there's reasonable scaling there.

Thus the previous high outlier, Ret, would over time have fallen back into line with the others. As of the hotfix (as in neutering) Ret is a very low outlier that will drop further over time.
85 Orc Warlock
8920
01/05/2012 04:52 PMPosted by Fredzilla

To even expand on this, they nerfed it because damage was too high for rets, yet you look at all the Heroic DS logs, and fire mages are on top of just about everyone. It's where fire is the best single target / AoE / Cleave damage in the whole game. What I don't get is how is Ret damage fine where it is now, but still so far behind fire mages on every boss fight? What does that show you about balance.


As far as ret on wol goes, that was prenerf, and that wasnt fine. Our dps was too high on all those parses, but fires is apparently a-ok.

That's what I am trying to get at, even with a so called "OP bugged" weapon, Rets were still so far behind fire. I just don't seem to get the reasoning of why this is fixed, but fire still stays in the spot that it is.
Edited by Dangles on 1/5/2012 4:55 PM PST
Ah, but if you've been over-nerfed we'll get adjustments. Where have I heard that before? Oh, 3.2. Did we get buffs for those nerfs? No, we did not, even though they were far too great (in PvP, which is where the nerfs were aimed).
1 Troll Hunter
0
01/05/2012 04:56 PMPosted by Sharrow
Ah, but if you've been over-nerfed we'll get adjustments. Where have I heard that before? Oh, 3.2. Did we get buffs for those nerfs? No, we did not, even though they were far too great (in PvP, which is where the nerfs were aimed).


MoP will fix it.
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