Gurth: Far more broken in pvp/pve than DWTR

90 Human Paladin
13535
01/10/2012 09:28 AMPosted by Vandaro
There is NO reason that a easily obtainable epic should be outdpsing a LEGENDARY by THIS much. This is a massive oversight on blizzard's side, and it should be corrected by either buffing DWTR, or nerfing Gurth.


Nerfing Gurth is the only real solution as it is clearly causing problems in both PvE AND PvP.

Sadly, the Devs have already hand-waved the problem with Gurth away so yeah, good luck with that. Developer pride is going to kill this game long before any rival MMO ever does.


Not to mention developer apathy. Don't forget this was a shady behind-the-scene server-side nerf that none of us would have know about had a blue not brought it up in this thread. Had it not been mentioned we would have seen a lot of "I've been really unlucky with my gurth procs while the warrior in my raid is spawning tentacles left and right" posts.

The weapon itself is causing issues, but the fix was to one class that already has enough issues in PvP and PvE. This should have been discussed before the nerf and not after the fact.
7 Orc Shaman
0
01/10/2012 09:28 AMPosted by Vandaro
There is NO reason that a easily obtainable epic should be outdpsing a LEGENDARY by THIS much. This is a massive oversight on blizzard's side, and it should be corrected by either buffing DWTR, or nerfing Gurth.


Nerfing Gurth is the only real solution as it is clearly causing problems in both PvE AND PvP.

Sadly, the Devs have already hand-waved the problem with Gurth away so yeah, good luck with that. Developer pride is going to kill this game long before any rival MMO ever does.


The fact that there is a 47 page thread about how often a weapon procs means this game isn't going anywhere anytime soon. I would make sense if Rets had an argument that their dps would be below average compared to everyone else.

100 Blood Elf Warrior
16350
01/10/2012 10:35 AMPosted by Elidra
It would make sense if Rets had an argument that their dps would be below average compared to everyone else.

Take a look at any of the stats, then, and you'll see that's the case. We were in the top end, but by no means OP, before the nerf, now we're middle-low, just as the devs intend, apparently. If you don't have to scroll Recount to see a Paladin Ret's too high, they say.


Rets are right about where Fury is. What's your point again?
90 Human Paladin
13535
01/10/2012 10:40 AMPosted by Yueni
Rets are right about where Fury is. What's your point again?


Fury can repsec to Arms and improve their position, Ret cannot. It's the sole DPS spec for the class and it takes the biggest hit consistently.
90 Dwarf Paladin
16700
01/10/2012 10:40 AMPosted by Yueni

Take a look at any of the stats, then, and you'll see that's the case. We were in the top end, but by no means OP, before the nerf, now we're middle-low, just as the devs intend, apparently. If you don't have to scroll Recount to see a Paladin Ret's too high, they say.


Rets are right about where Fury is. What's your point again?


Says the arms warrior.
100 Human Paladin
16205
01/10/2012 10:40 AMPosted by Yueni

Take a look at any of the stats, then, and you'll see that's the case. We were in the top end, but by no means OP, before the nerf, now we're middle-low, just as the devs intend, apparently. If you don't have to scroll Recount to see a Paladin Ret's too high, they say.


Rets are right about where Fury is. What's your point again?


So have you always been arms, or were you Fury in 4.2?

Wish I could respec to a dominant dps spec when my class gets nerfed.
85 Blood Elf Paladin
10115
You can't compare ret to lesser-performing DPS specs in DS because every class (except priest, which has access to the legendary) has an alternate DPS spec capable of pulling better numbers if they choose to use it. Even druids, the most comparable class to paladins, have 2 DPS specs.

Paladins cannot respec if they want better DPS - there is no alternate DPS spec for us.

Ret was previously competitive with the best performing DPS specs in DS. "Competitive" does not mean #1 either.

With how they handled Gurth, Blizz has flat-out said that they want the only paladin DPS spec to be subpar, which it already has been this entire expansion.


The problem REMAINS the sword, not the spec.
100 Draenei Paladin
18355
With how they handled Gurth, Blizz has flat-out said that they want the only paladin DPS spec to be subpar, which it already has been this entire expansion.


And this has perhaps been the most enlightening thing of this entire mess, the day where Blizzard said in plain blue text that they intend for Retribution to be a worse DPS spec then others.
Edited by Cadenbrie on 1/10/2012 11:22 AM PST
100 Blood Elf Warrior
16350


Rets are right about where Fury is. What's your point again?


So have you always been arms, or were you Fury in 4.2?

Wish I could respec to a dominant dps spec when my class gets nerfed.


I was Fury up until I got Gurth a few days ago. Fury is still competitive, just not as much so as Arms.
85 Human Paladin
7460
01/10/2012 10:40 AMPosted by Yueni

Take a look at any of the stats, then, and you'll see that's the case. We were in the top end, but by no means OP, before the nerf, now we're middle-low, just as the devs intend, apparently. If you don't have to scroll Recount to see a Paladin Ret's too high, they say.


Rets are right about where Fury is. What's your point again?


A Warrior could go Arms if they want to improve their dps? or is Arms even below Fury?

Rets have no such option so it'd be nice if the weapon was even at 80% of it's potential in the Rets hands as a DK or Arms warrior specc'ed to take advantage if it.... instead of 50% -60%

Rets are right about where Fury is. What's your point again?

Fury scales better than Ret, as a rule.
100 Goblin Warlock
17955
Just got done in an LFR

Arms warrior - Topping the meters the entire time, 397 version of Gurth.

Anywhere from 8-15% total of his damage came from Gurth.

My total from DWTR 3-5% ....

Oh did I mention the warrior beat me consistently?

I don't consider myself a bad player, I have 95%+ uptimes on my DoTs, I mind-blast on cooldown, and I clip my MF properly.

There is NO reason that a easily obtainable epic should be outdpsing a LEGENDARY by THIS much. This is a massive oversight on blizzard's side, and it should be corrected by either buffing DWTR, or nerfing Gurth.

In addition - could the reason that Arms warriors are so good with Gurth be that their mastery operates similarly to Censure in that it grants bonus hits and therefore chances to proc Gurth?


You do realize DWTR is from last tier, right? How about in ICC when Fire mages would beat at least 2 of the 3 classes able to use shadowmourne? That was a current-tier legendary still doing worse than some class with no legendary. It'd be like you beating a rogue with the legendaries now.


Except you do realize that the dev intent was for DTR to be used and still the strongest weapon for most of this tier? You do realize you're talking 1 spec competing with ret and dk while fury still mopped the floor with everyone else with SM and that fire mages would have been the only ones beating shadowmourne until the end boss of the next tier if there was a next tier. People with an epic that is the same ilvl are competing with a legendary. That is the problem. The ilvl is what matters not your convoluted notion of "it's from last tier".



Back on topic, still no answer on the whole let's nerf ret's use even though ret only had slightly more procs than arms. Lovely. For once this is something I can get behind and it's pretty much 100% unarguable that ret's proc should have never been touched without lowering arms's procs and UH's mastery affecting it. But of course the devs will be silent because they caved to the mouth breathing masses and used ret as the scapegoat for the sword.
Edited by Purebalance on 1/10/2012 3:12 PM PST
90 Blood Elf Paladin
13735
You can't compare ret to lesser-performing DPS specs in DS because every class (except priest, which has access to the legendary) has an alternate DPS spec capable of pulling better numbers if they choose to use it. Even druids, the most comparable class to paladins, have 2 DPS specs.

Paladins cannot respec if they want better DPS - there is no alternate DPS spec for us.

Ret was previously competitive with the best performing DPS specs in DS. "Competitive" does not mean #1 either.

With how they handled Gurth, Blizz has flat-out said that they want the only paladin DPS spec to be subpar, which it already has been this entire expansion.


The problem REMAINS the sword, not the spec.


You're forgetting a few classes there

Hunters
Shamans
DKs
Druids

All of them have specs 2 or more dps specs that are worse than ret.

Even shamans and druids with the legendary staff weren't outperforming ret. (on most fights)
Edited by Dragomaxor on 1/10/2012 3:24 PM PST
100 Goblin Warlock
17955
Ok.... but still doesn't show why ret was nerfed and arms was not.
90 Blood Elf Paladin
13735
01/10/2012 03:31 PMPosted by Purebalance
Ok.... but still doesn't show why ret was nerfed and arms was not.


The problem with nerfing arms is the reason why arms is so high on fights like ultraxion they get rage when they take damage. Blizzard doesn't want to change arms without fear of it also effecting prot warriors who get rage the same way too.
85 Undead Death Knight
5765
01/10/2012 03:37 PMPosted by Dragomaxor
Ok.... but still doesn't show why ret was nerfed and arms was not.


The problem with nerfing arms is the reason why arms is so high on fights like ultraxion they get rage when they take damage. Blizzard doesn't want to change arms without fear of it also effecting prot warriors who get rage the same way too.


Also: Arms damage is already rather poor in PvP. Not that I believe that's why they don't nerf it.
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