How to improve to LFR for MoP

100 Goblin Shaman
8770
For those reading this: this is not a hate thread, this is a let's help bliz fix this thread. So, please, no arguing. Try to keep it civil.

Small disclaimer: I know not a lot of people are going to agree with a lot of this- that's fine. However, we need to try and give Bliz some ideas on how to fix the problems with the system.

This is about IMPROVING THE SYSTEM for everyone all around. These are ideas I've been thinking about for a while. If you have better solutions: contribute, don't just argue "Oh this is a bad idea". Either explain why it's a bad idea and/or give another solution.

Ok so, let's try to come up with CONSTRUCTIVE ways to improve the current LFR loot system. We all know the problems. At least one of them was actually addressed: the one where people were rolling on things not even stated for their class. That was at least a step in the right direction.

So, first off, for those of you that aren't used to how a regular raiding loot system(also known as master looter/roll system) goes, I'll break it down. In the raids I go to- be it a guild or server pug raid- the normal system is Main spec then Offspec (if no one needs the item). Main spec has always been the spec you walked into the raid as- for instance, let's say for some odd reason I decide to go into a pug raid in an enhance spec. I would only be allowed to roll on agility gear.

The only time I would be able to roll on healer gear is 1) there isn't another shammy in the group or 2) the resto shammy doesn't need the gear. That is considered an off spec roll since I am not currently filling the healing role. (And, yes, I have had to actually explain this to someone in a raid once before LFR came out). In other words, it goes to the person who directly- at that moment would benefit from it.

Unfortunately, Blizzard doesn't seem to understand that most of the community views it this way. That is why we see at least 3 posts a day about "Feral druid stole my healing gear" or "Resto shammy stole my hunter/rogue gear".

So, proposed fixes to the LFR system:

1. The ilvl system needs an overhaul. If I remember correctly, gearscore (the grandfather idea that gave Bliz the ilvl system idea), has a way to check a persons gems/enchants according to what spec they are in. Bliz needs to hire this guy. I may not agree with how gearscore was originally used, however, some of the stuff he implemented in it should be implemented into the ilvl system. Gems and enchants could add maybe +2 ilvl to your equipped item level; only gemming your items would only give you +1 to your ilvl. No gems and no enchants would be counted against your ilvl.

2. On items being tradeable: They could always allow something to be tradeable only to the next highest roller instead of just barring trading all together (put a tag on the item stating who it is tradeable to). This would solve the issue of people rolling on things to be traded for something else that may or may not drop. This would also make it fair for those that do solo queue, got second highest on one of the rolls, however lost the roll to someone rolling for a guildie/friend. Also make LFR loot unsellable/unable to be disenchanted.

3. At the moment, I have no reason to requeue this week. I've already done my two DS runs for the week. This does affect other people later in the week though. On my server- normally about Friday/Saturday-ish- I hear people complain because of the wait time. At least make it possible for those of us that have already done our initial queues for the week have a reason to queue again- by way of maybe 50 VP per run after the first runs are done. That right there would give people incentive to queue up more than once per week.

4. Make the random drop table smarter- meaning, the same piece of gear/token cannot drop off the same boss twice in one run. That would eliminate people double rolling on things.

5. If you absolutely MUST put tier tokens in LFR, make it to where only 2 different types of tokens drop per boss (see above). (To avoid confusion, I originally put in that no tokens should drop in LFR but instead the look a like, non-bonus armor should drop instead <kind of like the non-tier bonus stuff that is currently on the VP vendor>). If you want the actual bonuses, go run normals. The biggest problem at the beginning of this patch were certain guilds exploiting the system because they absolutely had to have the new tier bonuses to beat the new normal content.


6. Smarter spec system: hopefully this will be addressed in MoP, but to help out a little, let's break it down barney style:

Tank
Melee dps
Caster dps
Ranged dps (hunter)
Caster spirit dps
Healers

I'm sorry but there is no reason a healer should be losing things to melee dps. Caster spirit dps is somewhat different because they at least directly benefit from the spirit.

7. Add a system that will not allow you to roll on loot if you are AFK most of the fight or you die within the 30 seconds of a fight (I see people that do this just so they can AFK then roll on things). In order to be eligible to not be considered afk, you have to have had contributed at least a certain threshold of damage/healing (note: I am not saying you have to be doing top dps/hps- but if you are only doing say 5% damage/dps in a fight, you aren't contributing). I don't think I need to state why this is needed.

8. If a person rolls on something and also drops group before the timer runs out, that person forfeits the roll. This would eliminate people having to spend 5 minutes waiting for the roll system to go off. It would also eliminate people not being able to receive something from a boss because the person that won it, left. It would go to the next higher up roll.

Anyways, those are just some ideas taken from many, many different complaints I've seen around from the last month. If anyone has any other ideas, feel free to post them here.
Edited by Jujubiju on 12/31/2011 10:55 AM PST
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100 Goblin Shaman
8770
Also, to explain why I posted this.

I've explained this elsewhere but anyways:

In a normal realm PUG, you eventually run out of people that need upgrades because most generally, the person putting the pug together brings the same people.

In a LFR pug, this will not happen. You are dealing with completely random strangers every single time. Therefore it's going to take longer to get what you need.

As for the "What about just seeing the content" folks: after the first couple of runs, you've seen the content. After that it becomes about getting upgrades.
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100 Goblin Shaman
8770
This is also along the lines of "Let's stop the crying and come up with solutions to fix this mess since we can't fix the community".
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85 Undead Rogue
2890
1) Your gem idea doesnt really fit because people will ignore socket bonuses because its actually better to ignore most bonuses for straight agil/str/int.

2) I totally agree with this. Making loot in LFR NON-TRADABLE would be a big improvement and keep people from rolling on items they have solely for the purpose of trying to trade for gear later they lose on.

3) Solo queue is a bit "meh". Its a great idea to keep people from getting 5 tries to win the roll with guildies trading loot. However; if #2 is put in this wont matter as loot cannot be traded. Put in #2 and #3 is taken care of.

4) I cant see this happening. No matter what raid difficulty you do you only get the chance of loot once a week from a boss. If hardmode people arent getting 2 chances off each boss just because they didnt win something why should the easiest mode get it? This isn’t going to happen, one chance per boss per week.

5) OMG PLEEAASE. 2 out of every 3 times DW dies in LFR he drops 2 or even 3 of the same damn item. This is absolutley grinding people crazy and me for sure. No loot should be dropped 2 or 3 times in one down period. Nor should it all be for healers/tanks/dps. Try to mix it up a bit if you can but at last for the love of God stop dropping the same item 2 and 3 times.

6) Taking tier tokens out will upset a huge amount of people. believe it or not the people that play for fun and raid at their own discretion are a lot more than hardcore or even regular raiders. Theres no need to take them out. Also a hardcore or even regular raider will replace the tokens with better tokens from NON LFR raids in time. Dont rob the people that dont raid regularly because "OMG THEY GOTS ME LEWTZ". The lesser tokens are fine.

7) Its called roll bonus, its already in it just needs some improvements and it will be fine. Also Blizzard has stated they do not recognize main spec > off spec rolls. Its been said many times and by many a GM in game.

Not a bad post and you've got some things going here but you've also got some things I just dont see happening and really arent fair to the general population that dont hardcore/reg raid. But we'll see how it goes.

CHEERS!
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100 Goblin Shaman
8770
Why this is important:

The reason this is important is because for the last few years this community has become greedy and has stopped caring about accountability. Obviously, the only way to make people accountable for their own actions anymore is the vote to kick button (which we know is NEVER abused). People see the shiny need button light up and they roll on it- despite it not being for what they are doing at that particular moment.

We need a way to combat that. Bliz needs to step up and say "This wasn't how it was intended to work".
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100 Goblin Shaman
8770
6) Taking tier tokens out will upset a huge amount of people. believe it or not the people that play for fun and raid at their own discretion are a lot more than hardcore or even regular raiders. Theres no need to take them out. Also a hardcore or even regular raider will replace the tokens with better tokens from NON LFR raids in time. Dont rob the people that dont raid regularly because "OMG THEY GOTS ME LEWTZ". The lesser tokens are fine.


Big thing on this: and it was proven before LFR was even put into place, the latest tier bonuses are not needed to down content. People have gotten on for how long without having the new tier bonuses?
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90 Draenei Shaman
12980
1) Blizzard does not recognize the idea of "correct" gems, because they don't want people to be forced to itemize their gear in a certain way. If I like Crit more than Haste, even if Haste models slightly better, why should that preclude me from entering certain content?

2) While there are issues with maintaining the tradeability of loot, this strikes me as a bad idea, for all the reasons why you can now trade loot in a 5-man to begin with. Instituting the role bonus based on spec (as is planned for MoP) will help a lot here, since it will reduce the set of people that could potentially roll on one's behalf.

3) This is a terrible idea, since it would prohibit a small group of friends from LFRing together.

4) There should be an incentive to requeue for LFR, but another shot at loot is a bad idea. Cash, bags, or points are all likely to be acceptable alternatives, since LFR would be the quickest way to cap out VP at that point.

5) Again, good idea but poor solution. I don't see a problem with two DK/R/M/D tokens dropping off the same boss, but I see a problem with one player winning both (though it's likely that the player could use both of them). When duplicate items drop, the system could be modified to allow only one roll, with the top 2 winning it. That would prevent one person from winning both items without reducing the drop chance of an item.

6) Terrible idea. Not only would it lengthen queue times, but it would make the tier gear even more inaccessible, for what appears to be no good reason.

7) The role bonus is already planned to factor in specs in MoP, so you can consider this one done.
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85 Draenei Priest
1215
12/29/2011 10:31 AMPosted by Jujubiju
If I remember correctly, gearscore (the grandfather idea that gave Bliz the ilvl system idea),

I'll expand this post momentarily, but I just want to say...
Item level has ALWAYS been in the game. It was just a hidden option you had to toggle, buried like four menus deep. It was the base that GearScore etc. used for their calculations.


.... Nope, Kiava covered all my points.
Edited by Akaniah on 12/29/2011 11:05 AM PST
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85 Undead Rogue
2890
Big thing on this: and it was proven before LFR was even put into place, the latest tier bonuses are not needed to down content. People have gotten on for how long without having the new tier bonuses?



if its not needed why are raiders doing it?

First you say take it out and now you say they're not needed to down bosses. if they're not needed why does it matter that they're there? it sounds more like "OMG U GOTZ MEH LEWTZ" than it really being an issue. Sounds like you just dont want people getting a nice set bonus from LFR. It doesnt affect the hardcore raiders or even the regular raiders, theres no real justifiable reason to take it out
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100 Goblin Shaman
8770
12/29/2011 10:58 AMPosted by Kiava
1) Blizzard does not recognize the idea of "correct" gems, because they don't want people to be forced to itemize their gear in a certain way. If I like Crit more than Haste, even if Haste models slightly better, why should that preclude me from entering certain content?


Blizzard keeps track of what stats people are going for on their gear. They know that healers generally stack intellect, hunters agility etc. The +1 on the ilvl score would tell the system "Yeah I have a gem in the slot" the +2 would be basically "I have a gem that's clearly a main stat gem in my slot". Bliz also knows that people don't always go for gem bonuses on gear (if you look at some of the current DS gear, you'll see they improved on this a little bit).

But- here's the thing- you don't get any + bonus if you don't gem that slot. It would be designed to make players actually want to gem their gear.

Another way to do it is this way: +1 in ilvl for gems, +2 ilvl for gems AND enchants.



if its not needed why are raiders doing it?

First you say take it out and now you say they're not needed to down bosses. if they're not needed why does it matter that they're there? it sounds more like "OMG U GOTZ MEH LEWTZ" than it really being an issue. Sounds like you just dont want people getting a nice set bonus from LFR. It doesnt affect the hardcore raiders or even the regular raiders, theres no real justifiable reason to take it out


Reread what you just wrote and compare the last sentence you are arguing to what you are trying to argue. Has absolutely 0 to do with people getting set bonuses and more to do with the drama that has plagued this forum about tier tokens since the first week of LFR. The issue may not effect the hardcore raiders but it does effect those that only use the LFR because of the way the regular raiders have been doing things lately. It takes one bad apple to ruin the pie.
Edited by Jujubiju on 12/29/2011 11:21 AM PST
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85 Goblin Death Knight
4500
And, of course, people want to argue. Please, if you have better ideas, put them out there.

This is about IMPROVING THE SYSTEM. These are ideas I've been thinking about for a while. If you have better solutions: contribute, don't just argue "Oh this is a bad idea".


The LFR is fine. The rules are set by Blizzard.

If you don't like this:

Make your own raids.

That way you get...

1. The loot rules that you like.

2. You get to stack the competition on your drops.

3. You can kick whomever you dislike or is rolling against you too much. Or those who feel are not deserving of loot.

4. You can prevent what you kids like to call "bads" out of your groups.

5. And the ilvl is greater so you can FLEX even harder while standing around Org/SW pumping that ego.

So instead of being REACTIVE and want everything handed to you. Be PROACTIVE and take whatever you want.

Crying about loot in a random group of people day in and out is getting old.

The constant stream of suggestions on how to control others in a random setting is also getting old.
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90 Blood Elf Paladin
14475
I agree and disagree with some of your points.

1. Oh yes... oh dear god yes. That's not just an LFR thing, that needs to be a universal thing. They already have the ability to go off equipped ilvl. They need to start with that. Then, rather than ADDING for correct stats, gems, enchants, subtract for missing gems, missing enchants, incorrect stats (parry rating for dps). I recall gearscore gave an overall gearscore of your gear, then an actual gearscore, which was what score your gear was for your spec. I believe that would be a great improvement. The current ilvl system is just... stupid.

2. I don't mind that. Honestly I see loot as a bonus in LFR. I believe if you really do want to prevent guilds and friends from rolling for each other, this would be a good solution, but first who gets a bonus to need roll needs to be spotted up. (This would prevent a hunter who accidentally rolled need on a str 2 hander to trade it to someone who can use it)

3. This I don't like. LFR is supposed to be a fun, casual affair. I queue often with friends both on and off my realm who I normally can't raid with because of schedules or whatnot. This I believe is a TERRIBLE idea.

4. A little extra VP or maybe some JP. I honestly don't think this is as big of an issue, since people generally don't run heroic dungeons solo past their valor cap anyways. What I would like to see is an option while queuing to only look for fresh LFR runs, then like offer a satchel to people willing to fill in on a LFR run that's in progress. I dunno, random musings.

5. Yeah... yeah... please.

6. Eh... I have mixed feelings about this one. I never really felt the need to run LFR for tier tokens. Again, I see loot from LFR as a bonus because I use LFR to see the fights (it helps to know what certain mechanics look like) and play with my friends. As long as the tokens remain an LFR level gear, I have no problems with tier tokens being in LFR.

7. Yes. They need to look at specific specs. They already have a need before greed system that can keep my death knight from rolling on int rings and capes. It would take some work, but I think if you're going to put loot in LFR and do a need+ system, you should definitely put the time in to make the system look at specs.

I think another thing to add to the LFR is that if you get the AFK tag during a fight, you would not only be ineligible to roll for gear on that fight, but you'd also be locked out of loot for that boss. For any fight, if there's like a significant period of time where you are not with the group and actively moving, attacking, or healing, you would gain the AFK tag. Autoattacking would not stop this timer.
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85 Undead Rogue
2890
12/29/2011 11:11 AMPosted by Jujubiju
Reread what you just wrote and compare the last sentence you are arguing to what you are trying to argue. Has absolutely 0 to do with people getting set bonuses and more to do with the drama that has plagued this forum about tier tokens since the first week of LFR


My first statement was to counter you saying it wasnt needed to down bosses. I actually agree with you its not needed yet serious raiders are still doing it. I guess I just posted half a thought on that one and ran off to another xD.


As for drama and tier tokens, Blizzard is already looking into it and not allowing someone to win more than one piece of gear off a boss and not allowing them to roll on gear the already have would solve most of it.

I feel the pain of the token drama but I'm not losing it over the issue. I've had a mage try to trade me tokens because he had won a token he already had just to use it as a trade item. I told the mage I needed the token and to take a hike for being an assclown and screwing someone over that needed it. The drama is there but there's other ways of solving it than just taking the tier tokens out, which would in turn upset a lot of people.
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90 Gnome Warlock
8810
Reduce the completion bonus and give VP for gear you pass on (including auto passes).
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I have an idea that the Role Bonus could be a diminishing total. With how the Dragon Soul raid is now, players could be given a total of 200 (in both the front and back halves) to put towards their Role Bonus. If an player is eligible for a bonus on an item, there would be an additional field that accepts the numbers 0 to <total remaining role bonus>. So, players could essentially gamble on items.

This would prevent players from rolling for others (assuming these players don't need other items), or rolling on items they don't even need just to grief people. It would also allow players to get that one item they need by dumping all 200 points on that item.
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90 Draenei Shaman
13685
You can only solo queue for LFR. The only way to group queue is if you have a pre-made 25m group. People are getting very tired of losing loot to people rolling on it for their guildies. However people want to justify it, it gives them a greater advantage then the solo queuer. In theory it gives them an extra loot roll because that item is tradeable. This would also discourage those that roll on something to possibly "trade" with another person later for something that may or may not drop later. All around it would make the loot system fairer.


No thank you. I like to queue with friends via realid. That's the only reason I run LFR.
Basically, a way to raid with my friends.


12/29/2011 10:31 AMPosted by Jujubiju
I'm sorry but there is no reason a healer should be losing things to melee dps. Caster spirit dps is somewhat different because they at least directly benefit from the spirit.


Well, technically, a healer should never lose anything to a "melee" dps. Pretty sure the system is solid whether an enhancement shaman can steal an intellect/heal for haste trinket.
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100 Goblin Shaman
8770
12/29/2011 11:19 AMPosted by Spiffy
The constant stream of suggestions on how to control others in a random setting is also getting old.


Did you bother reading it all or did you just skim the first part?

12/29/2011 11:35 AMPosted by Novalas
Well, technically, a healer should never lose anything to a "melee" dps. Pretty sure the system is solid whether an enhancement shaman can steal an intellect/heal for haste trinket.


Actually I have seen this happen a couple of times. That's why when I zone in and see something like 6 other shammies (I have seriously seen this), I just leave.

I'm gonna go back and change a couple of points though. I see a few valid points on some stuff.
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90 Human Warrior
16790
Well, we can't really say how to improve LFR until we understand what the purpose of it is.

If it's just to allow people to see the content, and get some "kewl lootz" then add the loot restrictions to stem the QQ, nerf it more, and be done with it.

But, if it's actually supposed to serve as a mid point between 5Ms and actual raiding, and is designed to teach people how to be successful in Normal/HM raids it needs a complete overhaul.
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