Topic Horde Raider Consolidation
Hello raiding A-N community.
This is my last hoorah in attempting to Consolidate the raiding community on this realm.
We're bleeding players to other games and server transfers. I'm reaching out to the players that don't want to spend money on transferring.
At this point all the guilds are level 25 and it doesn't matter what guild tags are which. Even as GM of LToW I am willing to drop my tag to continue raiding.
The hardest part of all of this will be raid schedules. Finding the right days that work for everyone.
Personally I'm not someone that has to be in a raid 100% the time. And I feel like if we all want to continue raiding and killing bosses and completing content, we shouldn't be worried about raiding 100% of the time.
I'm sure this will be troll'd. But I'm genuinely trying to reach out to the players that care about how they spend their money and their valuable time. We can negotiate everything.
You can reach me best at www.ltow-guild.org or on this post.
A lot of the problems lately with groups failing to be able to raid is players not wanting to get out and meet new people.
In order to have a healthy raiding community you almost have to have an influx of new wiling players and there just doesn't seem to be a lot of them.
I can assure you, if you arent happy where you are, if you're bored with lfr and want to try a more social environment you cant go wrong with these guys.
I'm leaving this group in order to pursue my real life career but I do it with a great pain.
In older days, there would be an obligation for me to fill the spot and maybe there still should be, maybe thats what Im trying to do now.
DW is a great guy, one of the best GMs on the server, and surely the best Ive had the pleasure of raiding with, dont ignore his post simply because you dont know him.
Its a good bet that if you're a fun loving, considerate, and reasonably skilled player that you will enjoy your time with DW and the guys at LToW.
Edited by Mustardõ on 1/1/12 7:40 PM (PST)
If there's anything <Infusion> can do to help we can. Just let me know.
There are plenty of things that Infusion can do to help on the Alliance side. The question is, are you and your raiders willing to do them? From my recently-ended experience as a spry little Dwarf on Azjol-Nerub, I'd be inclined to say that the answer is probably no.
To put it succinctly, the problem with Azjol-Nerub is that the lower-end guilds are too reluctant to replace underperforming players, and the higher-end guilds are too reluctant to accept exceptional ones. The result is a bleak field of hopelessness on either end of the spectrum, as great raiders in poor guilds feel like they'll never be good enough to reach the top, and great raiders in great guilds feel like nobody besides them will ever be good enough to reach their caliber. If you care enough to read on, allow me to recite my own story in explanation.
At the start of Cataclysm, I came to this server at the behest of a few real-life friends. Naturally, those friends weren't hotshot raiders, and naturally, they all eventually buggered off. Myself being a significant bit more hardcore in that regard, I went on to search for a guild to call home. Azjol-Nerub being what it is, that was easier said than done.
Since Infusion was top dog, I decided to see if they'd take me during Tier 11. Admittedly, my DPS was crap, and my raiding experience was practically nonexistent, so I don't blame them for passing me off as an overeager hopeful at that point in time. Instead, I shopped around, stuck with the best team that would take me, and eventually got 6/7 Heroic Firelands under my belt.
Now that I was actually a heroic raider, I decided to try at Infusion again; so went in my second application during Tier 12. There was no reply for a while, so I met up with Decix in-game to follow up regarding my app. Because he was apparently too busy pretending to be AFK, I got tossed to a very super officer instead, who proceeded to chide me on the aesthetics of my raid UI, the semantics of my application wording, and the audacity of having actually listed my raiding accomplishments in detail. There was also something about my DPS being too low, although when I tried determine what kind of numbers I should be pulling, he danced around the issue and refused to give me a straight answer.
I took what little criticism was constructive, and expanded my skillset to include both of my DPS specs. After a a few weekly wipe-fests on Zon'ozz and Ultraxion, I'd had enough. I was consistently thousands of DPS ahead of my team's average. I took a look at some parses, crunched a few numbers, and determined that I truly was of Infusion's caliber. That's when I sent in my third application, during Tier 13.
I got no reply for a while, just like before. This time, when I went to follow up, I was actually invited to join a trial run on Madness of Deathwing since they were short a member that night. I went in, I pulled my weight, and I beat some of their members, despite repeatedly being targeted and harried by Life Grip and Hand of Protection. I figured that would be sufficient, but no. No advice, no stipulations; just an unceremonious boot from the raid and another vague "DPS is too low" statement.
It's no secret that Azjol-Nerub is a poor server for progression raiding. Infusion is especially competitive in this latest patch, and even then, they would still only sit at #18 if they were on Illidan. Obviously, Illidan has a large playerbase to pull from. Also obviously, a lot of that playerbase consists of excellent raiders. The opposite can be said about Azjol-Nerub; not so many players to choose from, and not so many impressive accomplishments on a server-wide basis.
What we're talking about here is the rabble; people who are in not-entirely-impressive raid teams. The key thing to note here is that an "impressive" accomplishment on Azjol-Nerub tends to be commonplace on Illidan. If you take an above-average player on Azjol-Nerub and put them into a PuG on Illidan, they will suddenly become a below-average player. That's why if you're concerned about the Azjol-Nerub community, you need to be looking at things from an Azjol-Nerub perspective.
I don't want to be the guy who spreads slander, so I'll preface this by saying that this is entirely in my own potentially-skewed opinion, but from what I have experienced, Infusion does not look at things from an Azjol-Nerub perspective; they look at things from an Infusion perspective. They compare applicants against their own accomplishments rather than the accomplishments of the server as a whole. Aside from reportedly discussing strategies with similar guilds, they are reluctant to branch out. To reference Ouroboros' post before me, this is a matter of not wanting to get out and meet new people.
New people, in this case, are players who are potentially great raiders, but are stuck sc#*!!#* the bottom of the barrel among the rest of the rabble. They can't join the top guilds because they aren't better than the people in the top guilds, and they can't become better than the people in the top guilds, because they're stuck torturing themselves every week with nine other people who legitimately can't play for crap.
There's sometimes a difference between a poorly-geared player, and a poorly-performing player. Sometimes they're one and the same. Sometimes both issues are present, but one weighs far more heavily than the other. That balance doesn't matter at all, however, if high-end guilds just ignore everyone who doesn't cross whatever unknown threshold they have set.
I got sick of getting my face kicked while I tried to lick Infusion's boots, so I transferred to Illidan recently. I killed Deathwing in a PuG the very next day. I'm already in some no-name, low-level guild whose accomplishments would place them in the top ten if they were on Azjol-Nerub. My current team has lots of room to grow, and I personally have lots of room to grow.
Decix, this one goes out to you. I will admit that you are a better raider than me. You're the leader of a better guild, you have better gear, you have more experience, and you probably also have more skill. You're at the top... but that also means you have nowhere to go but down. Your raiders are excellent, but Illidan's roster proves that they can be better; or, more to the point of this thread, that you can have better raiders. If you really do care about the state of the server - heck, even if you only really care about your own guild's progression from a worldwide standpoint - you might want to give this post a bit of thought.
Edited by Jademcian on 1/2/12 2:27 AM (PST)
You have good points, but your perspective is wrong.
You're right about the spectrum, and you're right about what Azjol needs - but it's not from Decix. If Infusion "took care" of the server like you are suggesting, then you'd be right: the only way they could go is down. You want them to see it from Azjol-Nerub's perspective. You told us what that was. Let's go over it again.
...lower-end guilds are too reluctant to replace underperforming players, and the higher-end guilds are too reluctant to accept exceptional ones. As great raiders in poor guilds feel like they'll never be good enough to reach the top, and great raiders in great guilds feel like nobody besides them will ever be good enough to reach their caliber.
There is no fodder. "Lower-end" guilds can't afford to lose bodies. "Higher-end" guilds can't afford to water their roster down with simply the hopes of potentials. Azjol-Nerub's been crippled to the point that there are no stepping stones. Infusion catering to this problem will not fix it - It would only make it worse.
To see things from an Azjol-Nerub perspective means to let Azjol-Nerub stay the same as it is. To see beyond Azjol-Nerub and look to the calibre of other servers is the only way Infusion can survive here. It's the only way to potentially break Azjol-Nerub so it can ascend from what it became.
But you're right. The cause was the people. Especially for Horde. A consolidation job is a PR job here. The reason it's never happened is because nobody wants to be fodder. Nobody wants to create the vaccuum where they're the back supporting the propulsion and competition of the higher-end of the server. Simple as that. It was easier to erode down, and with the way 10 mans became, it's no wonder the result of the raiding here. I'm fairly certain I've said it before. For years.
The only way to heal a wound like the server has is to consolidate what is left into a substance that can either be the fodder for the step above them or evolve into that entity itself, feeding on what was left and thus evolves from its wake. That is the same case for any server with a similar problem. The same for the alliance. Putting a "higher-end" in danger is the opposite of what needs to happen, not blessing the potentials of the server. That's how you make a fodder feeder.
Glad you found somewhere to go. We'll see if Azjol can succeed in making itself somewhere to be.
Azjol's four main problems:
1) Raid schedules are too similar
2) Players aren't very social
A combination of "old-school" (meaning, pre-Cata) players being too disinterested or unmotivated to reach out to new players and the game providing fewer tools to interact with players on your realm.
3) Players are challenged at understanding criticism
I agree with some of Mustardõ's post but (and this is very possibly off-base) "chide me on the aesthetics of my raid UI" sounded like something an applicant would say after a raider took the opportunity to explain why Healbot is worse than VuhDo or Grid or why an addon like GTFO is valuable even if you think your response time is unmatched. Players are surprisingly unwilling to accept criticism, to try new addons, to watch videos or read strategies, etc. However, like Mustardõ said, this also largely relates to my second point.
Sadly, over the past two years this game has devolved from a place where meeting someone new meant there was a decent possibility to add a name to your Friends List to the point where the probability was that the player would disappear or rage quit within a month. Decisions that impact relationships in this game have too little gravity thanks to the ease of server transferring and tools which allow players to experience most of the game's content without a network of players working with them.
Players no longer need to concern themselves with maintaining their reputation.
Bottom line: it's unrealistic to expect someone to form a team if the players won't communicate when they're not going to be mentally or physically available. You'll end up with two groups: one that plays competently but can't be bothered to respect the fact that the rest of their team exists; and one that plays poorly but shows up to fill in when the competent players no-show. Both groups complain about each other incessantly, officers burn out attempting to mediate the situation and guilds die.
Darkwraith is trying to do something genuine here. He cares about this realm and is trying to open a door for players of any level to build something together. This server's population is high enough to make something like this work if people take the time to meet new players and spread the word that something like this is in motion. Respond to this thread or talk to Darkwraith in-game if you're interested in this. He's got the spark, he's just looking for fuel to light this fire.
Edited by Thatius on 1/1/12 11:36 PM (PST)
You troll me all the time decix. Of course I am going to have this negative view on you
That is what recruiters call a "red flag" ^^ what mustardo said :P
Well, you can beg them all you want, but the only real way to do this is to make a list of names and approach those people directly. It's the only way to see their interest level and what they think of your plan, or what could potentially be preventing them. Then you'll know if they know anyone whose interest level and opinion could potentially be similar to theirs, along with a vouche for their potential level of playing for you to check out - Forever and down the line until you can make a raid group out of it.
Similarly to what Bigwoo said, and reiterating my comment, you'll never accomplish a goal like this without communicating with these people - PR.
Edited by Mustardõ on 1/2/12 10:51 AM (PST)
You don't care about the "real" content, and yet you still bother to upload trivial fights that put me under a poor light? That seems backwards. I'll agree that beating your main-spec healer and someone who died partway through the fight isn't terribly amazing, but being terribly amazing wasn't my goal. My goal was to be of your caliber. To be decent. To be better than the general population of Azjol-Nerub. Despite my ilvl being about 7 points lower than most of your raiders at the time of that parse, I still think I succeeded in accomplishing that goal.
Look at the logs for KoTR- Zaden is a beast of a dps and I would LOVE to have him be our warrior, but we'd never go out of our way and ruin that group again. (If any of you read this I'm sorry for taking moot and swag, they really wanted out. They quit 2-3 weeks later anyways) There are those amazing players in other guilds on azjol trust me, we know.
Zaden's gear is through the roof. He's got a four-piece Tier 13 and two Gurthalaks. That doesn't necessarily mean he's a good player; it just means he got lucky on the loot RNG. Keep in mind, he could also be fantastically skilled; I'm not saying he isn't. I'm just saying that if you take an ilvl 383 Mustardo and put him against an ilvl 395 Zaden, it's obvious who's going to come out with the better numbers. Now, what would happen if you put an ilvl 395 Mustardo against an ilvl 395 Zaden? Against an ilvl 395 Glacios? Against an ilvl 395 Tôysoldier? That's the question that I'm arguing you're too reluctant to explore.
IF you are referring to us not accepting "exceptional" players to replace ours, you're completely wrong. We recruit quite a bit replacing where the weak links are, to make players feel competitive for their raid spots etc. Your application was very lackluster, in fact here I'll open up all of our applications for you to read and so everyone can see how much time you put into your application.
There's a link to my third and most recent application. I want to note that prior to submitting my second app (the one you linked), you specifically told me to try to impress you. I suppose since Infusion already had all of this stuff on farm status by this point, one-shotting the most difficult boss before Ragnaros wasn't sufficiently impressive, even for a native of Azjol-Nerub. In fact, following your advice and trying to impress you backfired on me, instead just making me seem arrogant.
I also want to clear up my comment about loot, because it seems that everyone and their grandma is failing to understand what I actually mean by it; I suppose you can attribute that to poor writing on my part. Allow me to rewrite that section to better achieve my originally intended meaning: Acquiring better loot allows us to kill bosses more efficiently, so I expect everyone in Infusion (myself included) to be focused on getting the best gear possible.
I tried to explain all of this to the lovely fellow who contacted me in regard to my application, but I think Microdowns' forum comment right there says it all. He was determined to give me a verbal thrashing right from the get-go, and he certainly succeeded at that. The fact that I was even able to decode some constructive criticism from any of it speaks volumes about my dedication. And really, you wonder why people think Infusion is full of jackasses?
Edited by Mustardõ on 1/2/12 10:51 AM (PST)
You performed terribly, you don't stance dance ( which later you came to me and asked about and I explained so I expect you to do that now omfg I helped you and you still did this) We bop'd and leap of faithed to see how fast you'd react to game changing dynamic roles, yeah you failed.
I don't think I failed at your surprise test. It hindered me, yes, but I reacted to it in the best way that I could. I figured the first Hand of Protection might have been an accident, but the second one clued me in to the fact that I was intentionally being targeted. I tried to click it off, but I couldn't, so I painstakingly made a macro to dispel it, all while trying to maximize my DPS mid-fight. The first time I got Life Gripped between two platforms, I Heroic Leaped back onto the one that we were jumping to. The second time we switched, I made sure to stay behind being idle for an extra five seconds so my Heroic Leap could come off cooldown; more hindrance which I handled admirably, yet still apparently not admirably enough.
You did eventually give me two sentences of legitimate advice. It only took me three applications and a perturbed session of publicly badmouthing your guild in order for you to offer it. That's my primary problem with Infusion; you're not overtly helpful. You overtly announce your desire to help, but when push comes to shove, the only help you readily give is, "Do more DPS than our lowest tier, then apply again."
You're asking us to do something impossible, and by "us", I mean everyone on Azjol-Nerub who is clearly better than the team they're in, and wants to move up a rung on the ladder. It's already been said in this thread that there is no stepping stone, and I'm inclined to agree; that is really the best definition of the problem. Because of that, we're forced to either take what we can get (wiping on Ultraxion all night), or try to consolidate ourselves into Infusion, where we know we'll be surrounded by like-minded and like-skilled people.
Since we can't PuG our way to Infusion-quality gear, we're screwed. We feel hopeless. Because hopelessness is not a very good feeling to have while playing a video game, we have two options; either we can play a different game, or we can transfer to a place where we can rise up to Infusion's standards without actually being in Infusion. Personally, I chose the second option.
Edited by Poena on 1/2/12 11:44 AM (PST)
I'll take a moment to review this and offer up exactly the problem... because I <3 comparebot.
Now this isn't a perfect comparison because the player I am comparing against Mustardo had 19sec more DPS time... Sadly until WoL Fixes their !@#$, I will have a tough challenge getting proper fight comparisons.
Note: I know nothing about warrior DPS, but based on spell/buff usage I can see the larger issues you have (that avoid the differences good vs. bad gear make).
Major buff usage:
You could have used bladestorm, deadly calm and recklessness more. You did not inner rage or sweeping strikes at all (this is a HUGE loss). You did not cleave (this is a big deal for platforms you don't have red up when attacking Blistering Tentacle)
You didn't use a potion.
Your rend uptime is a bit low. This causes Taste for Blood to proc less.
You don't use MS often enough. As such, your slaughter uptime is low. This also gives you low Enrage uptime. This also gives you less Battle Trance procs causing you to be more rage starved.
You don't use HS often enough (see your lack of Inner rage). On a high rage fight, you should be using Inner rage fairly often.
You don't use Slam... almost ever.
Your Whirlwind, cleave, spellweave (Maly's blue buff) are all low. When bloods are up... you need to use fast attacks to spellweave as much as possible.
You still don't have incite... Get it and use HS more.
I believe if you had done all of the above and Infusion turned you down, then they would have done so in ignorance. However based on this report, you do have quite a bit of room for improvement in your play.
I had to quote this because I literally LOL'd at this statement... You BoP'd someone... for the ever so present "click off the buff" fight mechanic? Randomly doing things like this prove nothing about a players ability because they happen outside fight mechanics. If I were randomly BoP'd in a fight I would have no clue what was going on because I do not play with rude players who try to grief their own team mates during a boss fight. If someone were to lifegrip me, I would really be amazed... since WE HAVE NO PRIESTS BUT ME!!!
The above being said, I don't disagree with your assessment of this player, but as always I disagree with your approach. However, I do have to wonder that if this player were shown some good tools to improve (like comparebot) maybe he could have become an great player. Shard has had quite a few players who've shown promise and willingness to improve, and for each of those we have helped turned said players into good to great players... However We also have some who still can't learn weeks/months/years later.
I support this post. If anyone could make this proposition work... it would be DW. If you're guild is languishing... considering merging with LTOW (or hell... any guild). Suck it up and join forces with others out there.