Mages look weak in MoP

100 Draenei Paladin
18410
04/06/2012 10:31 AMPosted by Youguy
Doesnt ret have this already.


More or less. From a mage perspective, the only difference is the higher mana cost, which may mean it can be chain cast less than it is now. Either way, it hasn't and likely won't make a ret a huge danger to mages.
1 Human Paladin
0
04/06/2012 01:38 PMPosted by Snozberries
Doesnt ret have this already.


More or less. From a mage perspective, the only difference is the higher mana cost, which may mean it can be chain cast less than it is now. Either way, it hasn't and likely won't make a ret a huge danger to mages.


Currently their biggest fear is AW hammer spam. Eating mages on the beta is making up for years of this game and having that !@#$ing spellsteal sound reaching into my dreams.
100 Goblin Warlock
17165


1) Soul link shares healing with the pet even if the pet is at full hp. To heal a soul linked lock to full you need to expend more healing. Did you really just say demon armor? The armor that was nerfed harder than any of the mage armors? Yeah... ok right. Also if you have an ele shaman healing themselves, you won already. If you don't know enough to realize that you don't have the pvp experience you claim since even the "1500" heroes as you so harassed them earlier in the thread even know that I'm sure.

2) I see you seem to neglect the numerous heals and shields you're being given.

Also I love the mage earlier saying that XXX was taken away with no compensation. Mages had too much control on live vs non rogues and non warriors. Warriors got given too much and mages got brought to where they needed to be.

My comment and the other persons comment are about live where mages are balanced around control, the point of it was to say they require it and you can't just take half of it away and expect them to be fine because they can spell steal buffs that people can choose to not reapply.

Your a tad bit slow i can tell(making comments about lock survivability like they are in a bad spot on beta LOLOL) so please go post in the warrior/lock/druid forums and tell them what else they need to be even more rigged it should be something you excel at.


Doesnt ret have this already.

Ret had crappy glyphs all cata so i guess its time to make sure they have all rigged ones this time around in typical blizz fashion. My comment was more directed at the most mobile melee(warriors) getting more handed to them.


Obviously you're stuck on the bugged demonform since you keep claiming "lock survivability" is high on the beta. It's not. There is no real pvp yet and when the lvl 90 pvp rolls around in full force on the beta it will be fully apparent how wrong you are. As you can see in the video that was linked, you're the only mage who is all doom and gloom. You've already been advised to listen you your betters, but I guess you want the mage skill floor to be even lower.

Also keep up the namecalling. Blizz can even see when you edit posts.
85 Night Elf Mage
2280
Doesnt ret have this already.


More or less. From a mage perspective, the only difference is the higher mana cost, which may mean it can be chain cast less than it is now. Either way, it hasn't and likely won't make a ret a huge danger to mages.


Nice spin. If a ret can't kill a mage in MoP with their respective tools then he should just uninstall the game.

Compared to live, mages are losing 15% physical damage reduction, our best root (improved cone of cold) and a bunch of stuff already mentioned in this thread.

Rets are gaining undispellable wings that lets them spam one hammer of wrath after another for the full duration. And honestly, how do you tell a good ret spamming hammer of wraths from a bad one?

They are getting a 50% snare just by using the judgement spell they would use anyway. They can get a non-dispellable/stealable sprint (unlike Long Arm of the Law) just by using their many holy power-generating abilities.

They can still spam cleanse roots, not that we have a bunch of them in need of cleansing- just frost nova and pet nova for frost mages and frost nova alone for everyone else.

They are getting execution sentence, a 40 yard range DOT, and they will be generating holy power from range from basically every ability they have.

Word of glory has NO cooldown. Seriously, is there ANY ret wish that WASN'T granted in this expansion?

If it's necessary for mages to have a down expansion then that's life, but it's really going to be annoying seeing rets with their wings /yell macros saying "hammer time!" or whatever facerolling in a way that any ebay ret could faceroll.

I personally won't be the one they are facerolling- I'd volunteer to be a subject in a root canal trial study before I'd play mage in MoP.
Edited by Ràylenn on 4/6/2012 2:59 PM PDT
85 Human Warrior
6665
Don't worry warriors still suck
100 Goblin Warlock
17165
What have warriors lost because to be honest I havent touched mine on the beta yet I did migrate her tho.
100 Troll Mage
15895
Since this seems to be the regular garbage pit for mage chat I may as well drop this here.

Am I the only one who doesn't like the new Glyph of Fire Blast, which spreads Living Bomb? I'm aware that it obviously does this on live already, but that's also with the current talent trees locking you down for at least 31 points. It bugs me how the glyph affects ONLY Living Bomb but, at the same time, can only spread it to two other targets (due to the 3 bomb limit) while the new Fire and Inferno Blast will spread other fire effects to up to 5 targets now.

I've only played fire for any extensive length of time (not trying to say I'm some great player) and I don't know how others regard the glyph, but in a way I feel like the combination of it and the Living Bomb talent would almost "guilt" me into taking them over Nether Vortex or Frost Bomb. Now that there's going to be more reliability to spreading effects on command, I'd think I was only disadvantaging myself by not taking both Living Bomb and the glyph to boost it.

Allowing the bomb to spread up to 5 targets might pressure arcane and frost into taking it for their Fire Blast, but allowing the glyph to spread all 3 bombs wouldn't be any better. In a weird way I'd rather the glyph not exist at all.

I dunno. I'd appreciate it if someone knowledgeable would respond in case I'm just making an issue out of nothing here.
100 Draenei Paladin
18410
04/06/2012 02:51 PMPosted by Ràylenn
Nice spin. If a ret can't kill a mage in MoP with their respective tools then he should just uninstall the game.


Spin? I was talking about the one ability. With no hard cooldown on the snare clear, it mostly leaves ret mobility as is on live, and then adds the undespellable wings, hammer spam talent (you'll notice the good ones by how they manage their Holy Power rather than just spamming), the snare options, and no cooldown on WoG (which is very unclear how potent it will be without Last Word, Eternal Glory since your ret is a hammer spammer, or Rule of Law). The change is still somewhat a nerf from the current model since it costs more base mana (don't know the mana regen rates) and doesn't have the nice auxiliary benefit of clearing a disease and poison in the same GCD (which has no bearing against mages whatsoever).

From a 1v1 scenario about the only known factor that's changed on the ret's end is a lack of instant Repentance for a couple of snare options, and a potentially more potent version of wings that isn't stealable. The hammer spammer in your scenario is without a repent or 20 yard hammer, has no chance of Divine Purpose procs, and a 20 second and a 6 second holy power generator to fuel those cooldown free WoGs.
Edited by Snozberries on 4/6/2012 4:43 PM PDT
85 Night Elf Mage
2280
Nice spin. If a ret can't kill a mage in MoP with their respective tools then he should just uninstall the game.


Spin? I was talking about the one ability. With no hard cooldown on the snare clear, it mostly leaves ret mobility as is on live, and then adds the undespellable wings, hammer spam talent (you'll notice the good ones by how they manage their Holy Power rather than just spamming), the snare options, and no cooldown on WoG (which is very unclear how potent it will be without Last Word, Eternal Glory since your ret is a hammer spammer, or Rule of Law).


On live I'm never snared by a ret and I can steal his long arm of the law sprint. In MoP I'll basically be snared all the time by 50% and I can't steal Pursuit of Justice sprints which any smart ret will take. Huge difference.

Not that mobility will make any difference when a mage is eating one hammer of wrath after another during wings.
Edited by Ràylenn on 4/6/2012 5:52 PM PDT
90 Goblin Mage
9540
Since this seems to be the regular garbage pit for mage chat I may as well drop this here.

Am I the only one who doesn't like the new Glyph of Fire Blast, which spreads Living Bomb? I'm aware that it obviously does this on live already, but that's also with the current talent trees locking you down for at least 31 points. It bugs me how the glyph affects ONLY Living Bomb but, at the same time, can only spread it to two other targets (due to the 3 bomb limit) while the new Fire and Inferno Blast will spread other fire effects to up to 5 targets now.

I've only played fire for any extensive length of time (not trying to say I'm some great player) and I don't know how others regard the glyph, but in a way I feel like the combination of it and the Living Bomb talent would almost "guilt" me into taking them over Nether Vortex or Frost Bomb. Now that there's going to be more reliability to spreading effects on command, I'd think I was only disadvantaging myself by not taking both Living Bomb and the glyph to boost it.

Allowing the bomb to spread up to 5 targets might pressure arcane and frost into taking it for their Fire Blast, but allowing the glyph to spread all 3 bombs wouldn't be any better. In a weird way I'd rather the glyph not exist at all.

I dunno. I'd appreciate it if someone knowledgeable would respond in case I'm just making an issue out of nothing here.


I think that this exemplifies that the bomb tier is flawed from the get-go, and that it's hard to do anything genuinely interesting with it without causing mathematical imbalances that make the choice "obvious".

They should just put each bomb in each spec, and get something useful in there instead. Something that might address the very issues with mage balance presented in this thread. Because really, if you compare mage spec specific spells to other spec specific spells/abilities from other classes, we have very very few. The bombs would round our specs out nicely.
Edited by Terrorific on 4/6/2012 6:22 PM PDT
Living Bomb can only be placed manually on three targets, but if you glyph Fire Blast/Inferno Blast, you can spread it to five.
100 Troll Mage
15895
I would guess that's a bug, or else there'd be no reason to limit manually applying Living Bomb to 3 targets instead of 5 in the first place. And if it spreads past 3 on purpose, then there's nothing to stop you from spreading the tail end of the bomb to another 5 potential targets right in time for their explosion, which seems even worse than what I originally had in mind if the three bomb types are meant to be similar in power. I know that Nether Vortex can be applied infinitely, but you'd constantly be running through your globals to do it. Meanwhile, fire mages are likely expected to be spreading their other stuff anyway and living bomb going along for the ride could make it too good of a choice compared to the other two. :(

Edit: vvv Oh, well if that's true and the numbers don't change too much, maybe it's just a non-issue to everyone else after all. I'd at least feel better about taking Nether Vortex or Frost Bomb if that's the case.
Edited by Sarm on 4/6/2012 9:35 PM PDT
Edit: I messed up this post. I meant that glyphed-spread Living Bomb seemed to be about competitive with other Bombs on AoE, from what I heard.
Edited by Eladen on 4/6/2012 9:20 PM PDT
85 Night Elf Druid
6140
04/06/2012 03:50 PMPosted by Yossarion
Don't worry warriors still suck


No.
Edit: vvv Oh, well if that's true and the numbers don't change too much, maybe it's just a non-issue to everyone else after all. I'd at least feel better about taking Nether Vortex or Frost Bomb if that's the case.

Yeah I truly hope that's the case. I want the bomb tier to be a choice or at least something different from situation to situation.
I didn't have much time to read it, but Lhivera's been doing a pretty good analysis of the Bombs and their performance in AoE in Mists of Pandaria so far. This analysis can be found on his website:
http://lhiveras-library.com/
Edited by Eladen on 4/6/2012 9:56 PM PDT
90 Goblin Mage
9540
If the bombs make no significant difference, then there's no reason to choose one of the other. If the bombs do make a significant difference, then it's not really a choice either. Or rather the choice is obvious. Hence the issue with straight dps choices for a talent tier.

Removing dps choices and replacing them with utility would basically solve everything.
100 Draenei Paladin
18410
04/06/2012 10:18 PMPosted by Dredamaulgrl
- The temporal shields are easily negated. If someone notices it's been used, they simply switch to the healer then switch back when it's over.


Isn't that the point of a defensive cooldowns in the first place, to force a hardswap?
Edited by Snozberries on 4/7/2012 6:12 AM PDT
90 Blood Elf Death Knight
9155
DEAR MAGES,

You have been terribly OP since Wrath, and very well to the end of Cataclysm and you knew it and enjoyed it.

Now things swing the other way.

Get over it.
85 Orc Warrior
5335
04/06/2012 03:56 PMPosted by Purebalance
What have warriors lost because to be honest I havent touched mine on the beta yet I did migrate her tho.


From what I've heard Arms looks good but Fury has more RNG issues than it did previously. Also the low crit levels really hurt a spec that relies heavily on crits.
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