Topic
Feral/Priest VS Rogue/Priest
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Deserving of a bump, I feel.
So, what's the consensus on expertise? Do I really need to get 16 expertise for PvP? |
Deserving of a bump, I feel. need? no, of course not. that's kinda the point Datah was making - it doesn't really matter how you reforge your secondary stats (outside of obvious silliness like spirit or haste or hit over cap etc). do you *want* to not have to worry about getting behind casters / healers for rakes / finishers? then go for it. still need to get behind for shreds, but i remember when i ran with exp ages ago it was *really* nice vs frost mages and hunters in particular, as it can be hard to get behind them and your uptime is limited such that missing a key move can be a big deal. there is so much secondary stats on the new set of gear that i don't really think it matters. it's not like your bleeds are going to be gimp if you move some points to exp, or even move all mastery to crit. |
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I think that if you feel the need to melee hit-cap, you should also feel the need to expertise cap. Since it's essentially the exact same phenomenon. I know people say 'well, I can just make sure to maim/bash/mangle/rake/rip from behind.' I don't believe you can do that as reliably as you think you can. Infact, I don't think the netcode in WoW is clean enough to actually allow you to do this reliably on a moving target. Evidence: We shred by strafing madly back and forth while spamming the button. Artfully trying to get behind your target to hit the shred key one time doesn't happen.
-- really the above is an internal self-consistency argument. If you value hit capping and don't value expertise, I'm just going to think you're a hypocrite. I personally only feel melee-hit capping/expertise is worthwhile if you play for a comp which has very limited timing windows to win: Rogue + Feral teams... Triple DPS teams. I can't think of any others. |
I think that if you feel the need to melee hit-cap, you should also feel the need to expertise cap. Since it's essentially the exact same phenomenon. I know people say 'well, I can just make sure to maim/bash/mangle/rake/rip from behind.' I don't believe you can do that as reliably as you think you can. Infact, I don't think the netcode in WoW is clean enough to actually allow you to do this reliably on a moving target. Evidence: We shred by strafing madly back and forth while spamming the button. Artfully trying to get behind your target to hit the shred key one time doesn't happen. i think you make a valid point (and i've run exp capped for these reasons in the past). *but* it is different. as you can negate lack of exp cap with play, while you *can't* negate lack of hit cap with play. lack of hit melee hit cap can also result is some really stupid stuff, like pounce missing. or missing attacks on a stunned target. not having hit cap also means your spells will just miss sometimes ('course, that hit cap is lower then melee hit cap). i consider melee hit cap (which subsumes spell hit) to be essential. i also consider spell pen cap essential. i value exp cap highly, but i consider that situational.
this is really right on though. |
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Edited by Reygahnci on 1/11/12 1:36 PM (PST)
Pretty much this. It took Blizz until s8 to fix the "Shred can be dodged on rare occasions" bug where the server would allow the shred and register it as "in front, so dodge is on table". BAH. EDIT: Since we keep bringing it up, let's get this stuff down on paper for me one more time. Melee hit cap = x% (y rating) Spell hit cap = x% (y rating) Expertise 'caster cap' = x% (y rating) Anything else? |
not sure on ratings, but: melee hit cap = 5% (600 hit rating) spell hit cap = 4% (~410 hit rating (i think, not too sure on spell hit cap and rating req, just know it's less then melee). expertise cap = doesn't really exist (as you can't get enough to counter say, dodge on ferals and rogues), but 5% vs things that don't have parry / dodge (so casters / healers) = 20 exp = ~600 exp rating. |
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Edited by Reygahnci on 1/11/12 2:05 PM (PST)
Okay... why are you saying 20 exp while Datah says 16? Also, when did blizz change the armory so that I can't see what Guntir's dodge is? That would have settled it for me. ------- Man, I really want to hear Datah's thoughts on crit (the more in depth one he promised later) versus mastery. I've been toying with this idea for a while now, especially since I see nothing but mages in 2s lately. Accidentally 3-shotting a Mage because they play cocky at 2200 and are used to steamrolling melee+healer is hilarious. "oops... Fb, Ravage, Shred all crit... I accidentally 80k" EDIT: Went to the doctor today; sinus infection >_< Sitting in LFRs for a while ^_^ Maybe I'll get super lucky and get the Kiril and a Vial. Won't you be jealous, then, Elle? |
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Edited by Ellesîme on 1/11/12 2:18 PM (PST)
LFR kiril isn't really worth it, i'd use the conquest T1 over it. LFR vial is. and no, no jealously, i'm quite used to dealing with terribad RNG :P. edit: Guntir's dodge is 3.35% (show all stats > defense). no idea why. i thought everyone had 5% base dodge, but i guess that got changed. the mage on his 3s team has 3.67%, so i now have no frikken idea what's going on with dodge. 17 exp gives 4.25% dodge reduction. but maybe even that is too much for casters / healers. also, minor point but worth noting: casters can't dodge while they are casting or channeling a spell. |
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Edited by Reygahnci on 1/11/12 2:31 PM (PST)
17 exp gives 4.25% dodge reduction. but maybe even that is too much for casters / healers. also, minor point but worth noting: casters can't dodge while they are casting or channeling a spell. I knew the bit about not dodging while casting or w/e, but most mage spells are instant cast or i'm rooted out of range, so it doesn't matter. So, it seems like 4% dodge covered by expertise will do it. In honest, I'm just doing LFR for the conquest points right now. I get T1 as soon as I hit cap, and I can trade in 250 dragon points for 250 arena points. Woo! I got into a dragonsoul1 on the last boss and steamrolled him just now. Ezmode 250 points. Now I'll try for Dreadwind or whatever his name is. Lawl. EDIT: Arg... sitting Deathwing's LFR now... tbqh, as a guy who doesn't really like raiding (and hasn't since vanilla), I have to say that LFR may be the best thing (raiding-wise) Blizz has ever done. |
i've done 2 LFR's without a good chunk of guidies to tip the scales. the first one i tanked. the other tank was terribad, so i just tanked everything, usually solo. he was pretty pro at taunting then getting gibbed by hagara's focused assault for example. we cleared the first 4 bosses without wipes. i was ~8th on damage meters, without any ellebearcat shenanigans. the second time i was dps. i *averaged* about *10k* more dps then the #2 guy. our healers were terrible, and we had many wipes and it was hellish. i won't do it solo again. but our raid team likes to roll in there 7+ strong and then we can carry it, so i've done a few of those. the bar is set soooooo low in LFR i don't even know if it counts as "raiding". |
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Well, I'm just happy there's some casual-loving raiding content. I actually like fighting dragons, but it requires people who aren't super short-bus, and getting them together on a regular basis is a nightmare. LFR is just 1 click then chill for flying loot piñata. The loot isn't great, but I actually get to see some of the PvE content, which is neato. Also, some PvE suit if I ever wanted to pick up PvE. It's baller. |
see, the short bus folks that wouldn't be allowed into even a normal only 1 night a week raid group are all in LFR. sometimes you get lucky, but i have low patience for that level of idiocy. 'course, i don't really do 5 mans for the same reason. i'd rather just go and wreck folks in regular bgs. but for decent players that don't have the time / desire to commit to a raiding schedule i can see the win. i'm just....well, i'm a masochist (wowlifelong feral) but i'm not *that* much of a masochist, heh. |
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Edited by Clay on 1/11/12 3:21 PM (PST)
Hell yea it is! I play with an old retired physics professor (in his 70s)... regular raiding was too difficult for him. In fact, he won't even do pug dungeons, because people make fun of how he plays/gears and vote-kick him out. It's quite sad. I'm really looking forward to taking him into LFR, so he can see what raiding is like and experience that content. He's such a kind person. He's always taking low level players through dungeons and helping out as much as he can. From the two I've done so far, I think he'll be able to slip passed without people being too mean. I hope. I'm really excited about it. (We just have to get his ilvl up above the threshold *pvp gear ftw*) **edit** I bet you guys are feeling bad for calling such a kind old RETIRED PROFESSOR "short bus." :P |
i hope he has a positive experience, but i'd be prepared for it to not be so great. last one i did (we had like 8 guidies so carried it), there was a rogue, he pulled lowish dps, someone started a vote kick with no reason. everyone just votes yes, he's gone. his buddy, a warrior, gets pissy. nobody listens. on the next fight, the warrior just autoattacks to protest. he gets kicked immediately, no reason. (for the record i voted no on both, but it didn't matter). |
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**edit** I bet you guys are feeling bad for calling such a kind old RETIRED PROFESSOR "short bus." :P Hey hey, I never called him that. Got my T1 weapon now. Good times. |
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ferals are UP
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Edited by Taswind on 1/11/12 10:42 PM (PST)
Perhaps a druid forum LFR one day for him? :P (With those of us that have geared alts other than druids to make the loot less... impossible... lol) We'd just need realID tag and / or any guidlies and friends and such that want to go. (I'm sure a lot of ppl here have 6-degrees of realID, or one of a realID pair can make a lvl 1 on a server somewhere for invite purposes, so that shouldn't be too big an issue.) 12 ppl for a majority would mean no vote-shennanigans, but as Elle said, we could run with 7 or 8 (or as many as we can get, lol). Would be fun, I think. |
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Since this thread is nothing but derailing stories anyway, I guess it's my turn.
So, yesterday I knocked out my LFRs for conq points and did the daily bg, Guntir's at work and no one in the guild is on. I notice that I'm just about 900 points away from my weapon, and we have 3s scheduled for later, so I figure I'll try something. Trade - "2300 exp Feral LF 5s, pst" After a bunch of tells from people explaining to me that my server is dead for pvp, I get a tell from a Rogue. Turns out he's building a 5s team and he has 3 guys - a frost DK, a disc priest, and himself. It also turns out that all three of these guys are gladiators, and he says "we may try you out on the 5s team". Sweet. Why not. Really, I was just looking for points to get my T1, but finding decent players with whom to play is also good. So, I end up running 2s with him and knocking out the points I needed. He's really good - better than anyone I've ever played with anyway. So, later we do 3s with him - Feral+Rogue+Disc. Keep in mind that he's in honor gear for the most part as he's gearing up still, so we had a bit of trouble in a couple matches where he got trained, we had some issues with communication and timing, but otherwise it went pretty well: 9-3 to start. Not bad for undergeared noise playing at ~1800 mmr. Here's the thing - I've never played with a gladiator-caliber player. The communication level is just superb, their field-view is insane, and they honestly have a better sense of targeting than anyone I've ever played with. It's night-and-day. Just as a topic of discussion, Datah (and anyone else who's played at that level), do you find that teammates either "have it or they don't" when it comes to aspects of gladiator-level play? I have always considered myself a good Feral; probably not gladiator-level, but duelist at least, and I played with this guy and it just made me play better. I flowed off of his leads, we had coordinated swaps, our CCs were perfect except in maybe 2 matches (2 of our losses where my cyclone macro was broken... gg me), we saw things coming better... it was great. |
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i had a very similar experience when i played with flextra and alesandra. 'course, i also was super hard on myself for all of my mistakes, as i simply wasn't at their level (or even really close). and it was more then a bit intimidating - first match of the expansion i was the only player in arena without a glad or named glad title. but yes, the experience definitely made me better, and it was a lot of fun despite the frustrations due to having a priest at the start of cata. i definitely didn't "have it" - at least, not compared to them. sure, they made mistakes, but they were generally minor ones, while i would usually make a couple minor ones, then maybe every 5th game or so make a big one. maybe every 10th game or so i'd feel like i really played it well. we raced to ~2250 playing at 2500+ mmr, then had a really bad day and tanked back down to ~2100. next day we went 12-1 to get back to 2200 on the nose and decided to wait for the patch for some priest buffs. but the same patch gutted warrior stance dancing and flextra decided it was time to quit, so that was that. so even though i basically learned what i knew - i'm not a glad level player - it was an excellent experience and even though they both quit wow, i'm still in contact with them. |
