Nerfs.

85 Worgen Mage
14050
01/22/2012 09:11 AMPosted by Audience
What people want is to feel good about themselves, and to do so in front of others. Very few people would want a game where they just sit in SW/Org and are mailed epics.

Yes and no. I agree with your first sentence, but I'll wager that there's a very large number of people who want precisely what your second sentence states; Hence all the, "fix the loot in LFR!" and "mah Token hasn't dropped in 2 whole kills, teh system is brokenz!" and "how come the GM didn't give ME the Souldrinker?!" threads we see on a daily basis here.

The irony is that both Blizzard and their target demographic are both lying their @sses off to one another.

The so-called "casual majority" claims they want to see the content and experience the story...when in truth they want zero-death shinies in 30 minutes or less so they can sit around a major city and mock the people who have less free time than they do.
They want a chatroom, with orcs and elves wearing epic gear.

The developers claim they want players to "experience the story and see the content"...when in truth they really don't give a damn what you do with your game time, so long as you keep throwing $15 at them every month and $40 or $50 every expansion.
They want a healthy bottom line, at any cost.

Watching the two side constantly try to one-up and out-bullsh!t each other is pretty amusing.
90 Orc Shaman
13550
If Blizzard really wants more people raiding, then the game needs a radical redesign from the ground up. The game doesn't currently prepare you for raiding. The part of Bashiok's post that's correct is the part about people being unwilling to put in effort. It's so very easy to level, and raids are something different entirely. There's no in-game resources teaching you about when and how to use your abilities.

Most MMOs go about that by having similar gameplay throughout leveling.. they require you to do what you're going to be doing at the endgame level on a smaller scale while leveling up. WoW did that much better in classic and BC. In Wrath and Cataclysm, however, that's no longer true. Leveling doesn't teach healers mana management. Leveling doesn't help dps learn what their rotations will be at 85. Leveling doesn't teach tanks how to hold aggro and when to use CDs. Leveling doesn't teach players to stay out of fire or coordinate mechanics. All of that is reserved for level 85 and is self-taught.

I saw this problem coming when they stopped paying attention to balancing anything below maximum level. The game needs to be a much smoother transition. Having 1 type of balance - or rather, lack of balance - during level 1 through whatever and then another type of balance entirely at the maximum level is messing everyone and everything up.


It's also impossible to bring raiding down to the leveling difficulty. All of us would quit nigh instantly. I'm of the opinion that LFR is about as easy as they can go and still call it a raid.
90 Blood Elf Paladin
8840
01/23/2012 08:17 AMPosted by Hyjinx
It's also impossible to bring raiding down to the leveling difficulty. All of us would quit nigh instantly. I'm of the opinion that LFR is about as easy as they can go and still call it a raid.


There needs to be something between LFR and normal raids. LFR assumed that everyone who wasn't raiding because of things like time wanted a faceroll...

Maybe how long the raids lock, the progression of their challenge, how you're rewarded, and everything just need to be completely redesigned.

The fact that there are people who want the challenge but aren't raiding, and that there's people currently raiding who are against nerfing the content, should be a HUGE hint that this design just doesn't work.
90 Blood Elf Paladin
8840
Yes and no. I agree with your first sentence, but I'll wager that there's a very large number of people who want precisely what your second sentence states; Hence all the, "fix the loot in LFR!" and "mah Token hasn't dropped in 2 whole kills, teh system is brokenz!" and "how come the GM didn't give ME the Souldrinker?!" threads we see on a daily basis here.


Do you ever actually READ the posts, and read what they're saying? Ofc not...

The argument on souldrinker is whether or not it should exclusively be a tank weapon. The argument on tier is people rolling need when they have a full set. Those people aren't fighting over just losing a roll, they're fighting over whether or not that guy in full T13 should have been able to win that tier piece, or if a fury warrior should want to use souldrinker.

Try actually reading what people are saying
85 Human Hunter
2900
The main problem with this is the fact that its making the LFR thing completely useless. why would people run a raid that is equal in difficulty but give worse gear? what blizzard really needs to do is implement a Raiding system into leveling from the levels 60-85 so players can start learning how to use their characters most effectively during a raid earlier in the game and better preparing them for the end game content.
90 Orc Shaman
13550
01/23/2012 08:25 AMPosted by Aldiara
It's also impossible to bring raiding down to the leveling difficulty. All of us would quit nigh instantly. I'm of the opinion that LFR is about as easy as they can go and still call it a raid.


There needs to be something between LFR and normal raids. LFR assumed that everyone who wasn't raiding because of things like time wanted a faceroll...

Maybe how long the raids lock, the progression of their challenge, how you're rewarded, and everything just need to be completely redesigned.

The fact that there are people who want the challenge but aren't raiding, and that there's people currently raiding who are against nerfing the content, should be a HUGE hint that this design just doesn't work.


They can't really change the fact that raiding takes time, though. The definition of an MMO is pretty much "entertaining timesink". WoW has gone further away from that than other MMOs, but they still can't fundamentally change that definition.

Also, where does it stop? You want a 4th raiding model now? Christ.
90 Pandaren Warrior
16560
1. Fair = 25 players kill a boss, anyone who can use an item can roll on it.
2. Biased = 25 players kill a boss, loot is awarded to the player who needs it the most.

Some people would argue 2. is more fair. They are wrong, and likely communists/socialists.


Or want their guilds to have the best change of success by raising the weakest links up to the performance line of everyone else.
90 Blood Elf Paladin
8840



There needs to be something between LFR and normal raids. LFR assumed that everyone who wasn't raiding because of things like time wanted a faceroll...

Maybe how long the raids lock, the progression of their challenge, how you're rewarded, and everything just need to be completely redesigned.

The fact that there are people who want the challenge but aren't raiding, and that there's people currently raiding who are against nerfing the content, should be a HUGE hint that this design just doesn't work.


They can't really change the fact that raiding takes time, though. The definition of an MMO is pretty much "entertaining timesink". WoW has gone further away from that than other MMOs, but they still can't fundamentally change that definition.

Also, where does it stop? You want a 4th raiding model now? Christ.


Well, you can easily argue that LFR shouldn't have even been added. It was the wrong solution, to the wrong problem. It was directed towards people who want to do normal raids, but for some reason can't, who now, get a complete joke that most of them will agree it's WAY too easy. Maybe instead of pushing this, they should have been working on cross server raiding with friends since they got the idea of LFD in wrath. What they need to be doing is making it so that the guy who can only log on between 3 and 7 AM has a reasonable way to find a group of players without having to transfer servers or anything, THAT is where the focus should have been going.

LFR addressed the "I want to see the content and story", but completely forgot the HUGE group of people who want the challenge of a raid, but needed help on the side of organizing a group, and finding the people to do it with, that works with their times that they can commit to this game.

Right now, we need a 4th, but realistically, the 3 we have now should be more than enough, but this CONSTANT stubborn thinking that you have this infinite pool of players on every server 24/7 that MMO developers have been sticking with for the last 15 years really has to go, and they need to start working with the fact that players are finite, there's only so many tanks and healers on a single server at any given time. We either need more options of how to raid, or more options of how to fill a raid.
Edited by Aldiara on 1/23/2012 9:02 AM PST
87 Worgen Druid
9905
1. Fair = 25 players kill a boss, anyone who can use an item can roll on it.
2. Biased = 25 players kill a boss, loot is awarded to the player who needs it the most.

Some people would argue 2. is more fair. They are wrong, and likely communists/socialists.


Or want their guilds to have the best change of success by raising the weakest links up to the performance line of everyone else.


Wait, are we arguing about loot council now?

It's not. The content is accessible to everyone. Hardmodes are either one added ability or increased dps / healing reqs. The fights are the same.


Sure, except for the fact that almost every mechanic is handled differently, hell the first encounter splits into two bosses. Besides that, not just the mechanics are what makes up content, it's also the gear, the achievements and the added difficulty.

I firmly believe they are capable of coming up with a raid that increases in difficulty to the point where it becomes challenging for most players without making it so difficult that the completion rate is less than half a percent.

I think more than 500 players out of 12 million should be able to obtain the best gear, titles, mounts and achievements. If that makes the content too easy for some, that's a far better outcome than how it is now, which is too difficult for a staggering majority.

If the same idea was put into effect for sports recruiting, you wouldn't even be able to come up with enough people out of the entire island of Manhattan to fill a basketball team.
90 Draenei Paladin
0
This is an optional thing, correct? Why not give a reward for not using it and taking the harder path? That's what achievements are for, are they not?
90 Pandaren Warrior
16560
Guild loot distribution is not intended to be fair. This conversation is in context of LFR, where providing loot to the player who needs it most won't result in providing the group with the best chance of success, as success is already guaranteed.


Yep, but I still stand by what I said last night that normal mode Madness is easier than LFR madness, simply because the mechanics are ni-identical and you remove the bad players.


LFR is actually challenging in the way that getting a cat to play fetch with you is challenging.
Or teaching a dog to use a litter box.
90 Blood Elf Paladin
8840
01/23/2012 09:01 AMPosted by Dyná
I firmly believe they are capable of coming up with a raid that increases in difficulty to the point where it becomes challenging for most players without making it so difficult that the completion rate is less than half a percent.


There's been lots of ideas out there. One good one was scaling content to the number of players.

Basically, if heroic DS is too easy for you, pretend you're in Paragon, then you bring 9 people, and the damage and hp and everything is adjusted for that, if that's too easy, you bring 8. Now, ofc, in these games the default raid group size was a lot bigger than 10 people, but you get the idea: For every raid spot you don't fill, the content gets adjusted just enough that it's possible to do... So if you took 25m madness, as you took less people, you worked the damage and HP more towards 10m, while pushing the difficulty more towards heroic. I forget which game did it, but it actually worked pretty decently.
90 Human Mage
13535
It's not. The content is accessible to everyone. Hardmodes are either one added ability or increased dps / healing reqs. The fights are the same.


Sure, except for the fact that almost every mechanic is handled differently, hell the first encounter splits into two bosses. Besides that, not just the mechanics are what makes up content, it's also the gear, the achievements and the added difficulty.




Wait, what? The guy splits into two and the raid splits into two groups. Other than that you do the exact same thing. One added mechanic, same boss fight.

I stand by my statement that all raid content is accessible. Gear / achievements is what you want. Difficulty is just a setting.
90 Blood Elf Paladin
8840
01/23/2012 09:10 AMPosted by Firestyle
What they need to be doing is making it so that the guy who can only log on between 3 and 7 AM has a reasonable way to find a group of players without having to transfer servers or anything, THAT is where the focus should have been going.


I'm sorry, server transferring really is one of the only routes sometimes. It hink they need to make it more economical to move toons in bulk (e.g. move 3-4 alts to a new server).

I also think that they could revamp the guild recruitment forums, or even create a whole new armory / search process for finding a guild. Right now, the current recruiting system still rewards guilds that bump their post the most.

Wouldn't a database of guilds, with listed raid times, time zones, expected commitments, and other relevant information be incredibly useful? Also, potentially listing recruitment. Think of it like the in-game guild finder, but across all of WoW N.A. with slightly more granular options, such as class/role needs.

Then, applicant information gets filtered back to whoever is the GM or delegate for the guild, and they can be reviewed/ignored. Failure to respond/ignore applications with a 7 day period results in flagging your guild as not accepting recruits.


Yeah, but with their idea to add battle tags, and now being able to do raids with friends across servers (Except for the one that people actually want to do), they can get around server transfers. There is no reason that someone should have to leave a server to have a shot at success. We also need some work on guilds, it's time for some changes to that...

If you combined how battle.net works, Blizzard stopped being so completely pointlessly stubborn and let people do CURRENT raids with friends from other servers, with your ideas, a ton of problems would be solved almost instantly

The problem with the difficulty of success is that you have to be ready to tell your own mother you're not going to raid with her anymore because she's bad at the game. We need that middle ground, we need the challenge of raiding, but we also need success to not have such a high risk of costing you the entire social side of the game. We need more options of how to organize and fill a group.
Edited by Aldiara on 1/23/2012 9:17 AM PST
87 Worgen Druid
9905
01/23/2012 09:13 AMPosted by Strykt
It's not. The content is accessible to everyone. Hardmodes are either one added ability or increased dps / healing reqs. The fights are the same.


Sure, except for the fact that almost every mechanic is handled differently, hell the first encounter splits into two bosses. Besides that, not just the mechanics are what makes up content, it's also the gear, the achievements and the added difficulty.




Wait, what? The guy splits into two and the raid splits into two groups. Other than that you do the exact same thing. One added mechanic, same boss fight.

I stand by my statement that all raid content is accessible. Gear / achievements is what you want. Difficulty is just a setting.


Difficulty is not just a setting as long as they tie all the rewards and achievements to it.

In any event, my main point is being lost, so I'll try again.

I firmly believe that there should not be any content / gear in the game that less than half of one percent of the player base will ever get to earn. That's it.

I understand why they jack up the difficulty in the beginning, which is to make the top 0.1 or 0.2% feel special, but when they turn around and start easing the difficulty down so that more than 100 people per 1,000,000 can do it, don't get all surprised.

If there are 3 difficulties in a raid, I would be happier if the completion rates were 80%, 50%, 30% instead of this 30% 10% 0.2% crap we have now.
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