Nerfs.

90 Tauren Shaman
15180
Why does it matter? Seriously.
Play the game to have fun, not everything has to be a competition between your guild and the next.
I raid casually, not to compete with other guilds, but to just have fun doing what I like doing. I like killing bosses, I like the rush of a progression boss being at 3 percent. But just killing bosses to be ahead of another guild is absurd.
And as for the people who play the game to compete, Don't sweat it too much. Just keep in mind that there is always somebody, somewhere, who is going to be better than you. Who is going to outprogress you, outdps you, outheal you. I know it is a bit of a pessimistic stretch, but it's the truth. There can only be one number one spot.
Play for the right reasons, do not complain for the wrong ones.
Thank you and have a wonderful day (:
90 Human Death Knight
11945


I don't know, man. How is it good for the game to have 1% of players parading around for months and months and a 99% sitting around with nothing to do because they're sick and tired of wiping?

Your solution is "Well then they should get better or quit." and that's just not reasonable for a video game comprised of millions of people looking to just have some fun. It's still a computer game.


This right here is everything that is wrong with the game. The way this was originally worded, you said something about everyone paying the same $15 a month. We are treated like customers rather than players. What used to be a game has become an advanced social network based around a disgusting theme park feel-good way of playing. If things are too hard for a (rather annoying) majority of players that take to the forums, you nerf it instantly. You fear us. You have too much data for your own good. You look at the difficulty of content vs how many subscriptions you lose.

This game, and it used to be a game, was originally designed around an elitist style. Only those at the very top of the game could venture into the newest and greatest content. The rest were stuck farming Strat and Scholo with 15+ players to try to build up their gear. Guilds wiped for months on end in MC and BWL, even when AQ was released. The original C'thun fight was only nerfed after a considerable amount of complaining from the top guilds in the world. The fight was literally impossible. I use this as an example of how your original team designed the game. Those that are the absolute best will clear your content. They will find a way to get it done. That is what used to be expected. Things were possible, you just had to be VERY good in order to accomplish them. Eventually the average players could progress enough either by learning or by building up enough gear to just overpower the fights they were stuck on.

Was this the right way? Perhaps not. Sure, it is nice for everyone to see the content for themselves. But never forget that what made your game popular was the allure of that which the majority of players could not attain. People always want what they can't have. The average idiot running around in blues used to marvel over the T1 epics. Those with T1 used to envy those with T2. Those few that had finally farmed the content until their eyes bled and collected full BiS still enjoyed raiding for the environment and hanging out with their guild. To my understanding, this is why hardmodes were introduced.

I would love to see the game go back to this style where the attitude of the developers is, "Well, we tested it, and it is definitely possible. Figure out a way how." I HATE being told how to do the encounter. Possibly my favorite thing in this entire game to date has been my hunter's epic leaf quest. It is understandable that nerfs come with time. But for what it's worth, let us have our fun trying to down the content. If tweaks are to be made, make them on an encounter basis. Don't offer up a blanket nerf a month and a half into the content. Hell, I cleared the entire raid on the first week it was released. That is nothing short of sad.


PvP players trying to argue the point of a PvE situation. Makes perfect sense. >.<

Next............
90 Human Death Knight
11945
01/23/2012 06:55 PMPosted by Jackjagalos


This comment is foolish. It is, in fact, a option. You CAN turn it off, you just choose not too.


"You" there is no"You" in raiding. These kinds of comments are the most foolish thing to pop up in this thread.


In fact, you guys, as a raid team, have a option to turn it off. It will be you guys, as a raid team, that will choose not to.
85 Tauren Death Knight
3765
you cant really call it a nerf, if you are that upset about it then just turn off the debuff at the start of the raid? or do HM DS?
boooo
86 Gnome Mage
9665
01/23/2012 06:53 PMPosted by Hyjinx
And since there are always players at any level of progression in the raids, your recruitment shouldn't suffer at all, no matter where you are in progression.


That's BS and you know it.


I know nothing of the sort.

If recruitment was impossible unless you were at the very tippy top of progression, then nobody but the top guilds in the world would be recruiting.

At every level of progression, it is possible to recruit. You might not get the absolute top flight recruits...but if you're not downing hardmodes already, then you're not going to get the top flight recruits in any event.

Which goes hand in hand with my earlier comment - if you're already downing hardmodes, the buff means nothing. You can turn it off, continue doing exactly what you're doing, and not be affected in any way, shape or form by what other guilds are doing.

90 Orc Shaman
13550
01/23/2012 06:56 PMPosted by Tommie
Play the game to have fun, not everything has to be a competition between your guild and the next.


What if... bear with me here... you find the competition aspect fun?

Which goes hand in hand with my earlier comment - if you're already downing hardmodes, the buff means nothing. You can turn it off, continue doing exactly what you're doing, and not be affected in any way, shape or form by what other guilds are doing.


It's impossible to convince you otherwise, apparently, so.. go right on thinking that.

While you're at it, find me some guilds actively progressing in hardmode content that aren't going to have the buff on.
Edited by Hyjinx on 1/23/2012 7:08 PM PST
90 Blood Elf Priest
0
01/23/2012 04:13 PMPosted by Jackjagalos
These notes were unofficial and had a slight chance of going into the patch, but there were nerfs to warmaster heroic and spine heroic that were put in, if they did that, heroic DS would become 1 straight shot to the end with no real boundaries.



I wouldn't be too surprised, but it still wouldn't really solve the problem.


The point is not to release poorly implement it, then nerf it so bad it doesn't matter.

You are mistaking WoW's game model as an "instant gratification model". They are not the same. Even with these nerfs, the majority will still find raiding difficult enough that it is not "instant gratification".


LFR is straight up instant gratification, and it doesn't try to hide that.

Not everyone is capable or even desires to be on the cutting edge of progression. That doesn't mean they "shouldn't play games" or should be treated as second-class players.


So then why are they doing hardmodes again?

If you haven't progressed...I hate to break it to you, but you're one of the poor guilds. You're one of the ones this nerf is intended for.


Yeah, apparently we're terrible because we raid 2 nights a week instead of 4+, and took a break for christmas. Lets just ignore that we're extremely close to getting zonozz down, with yor and ultraxion likely soon after.


If you've already beaten the hardmode bosses, you can continue to do so without the buff. If you can't beat the hardmode bosses without the buff, then you're what the buff is intended for.

It hurts, I know, to acknowledge that you're not on the bleeding edge of progression - but it might be time to face up to the facts. If you're going to lose recruits/progression because you've turned off the buff...you're no better than those "bad guilds" you claim will beat you by using the buff.



No one is saying they're bleeding edge. That's the point. We're not, and we don't want to be. That doesn't make us bad. Obviously it takes more time than someone playing more. Last i checked, blizzard was ok with this (in theory anyway, seems they seem to be rushing us more and more each teir.).


"we realize that people don't want to go back to the hardcore model of vanilla/bc"... /nerfs inc "you're not hardcore enough. if you want to see the content, you need to raid more often".
100 Human Paladin
16500
The recent changes to this tier has simply reinforced my decision to quit pve progression in this game. (not entirely based upon this, was also very bored with the game in general)

Nearing the end of expansions blizzard has always given away welfare epics and opened the gates of content for casual players

pvp patch and everyone in blues and greens with rank 14 weapons.

TBC attunement process for hyjal and BT taken out, raids that could not progress to kill Vash and Kael entered Hyjal and BT got handed better items.

Wotlk with the exception of H LK, buff trivialized other bosses.

Recently with the implementation of LFR it seems as if this will be the continuing paradigm for blizzard, to cater to the masses.

It does make financial sense to cater to majority of the people playing this game, but i think it will ultimately lead to a game with less substance. A game in which someone who spends more time than another does not achieve anything relative to the time they devote will lead to the decay of any meaning to a game.
86 Gnome Mage
9665
Who do you think will get the most recruits? And which guild do you think will get skipped over the first? A guild recruiting top players has to look appealing and attractive at first glance for some people, and if they don't like what they see after reading that header, they will skip it and go on to read the next.


And you know what this really tells me? Most of the raiders out there don't mind the buff at all. Because if the majority of the raiders out there hated the buff that much...they would insist on raiding without it.

Which goes right back to Blizzard (the horror!) doing what the majority of their playerbase wants. Which, from a business standpoint, is the only intelligent thing to do. They're not out there looking for ways to make a minority viewpoint come to fruition, they're in this to make money.

Find me one company, just one for-profit company, that does otherwise, and I'll show you a company that fails in business 101.
85 Human Priest
2500


PvP players trying to argue the point of a PvE situation. Makes perfect sense. >.<

Next............


Would you prefer I post from this? How does what kind of gear my character is logged out in have ANY bearing on what I'm saying? (For the record, check the dates of my druid's cata boss kills on the first tier. It was US top 100.) You are exactly the type of person I'm complaining about. You've yet to clear normal dragon soul, and you think you have some opinion on why the fights need to be nerfed. Clearly, a lot of people are able to handle the content. Because you are not one of them, you feel sad and left out, and entitled.
100 Night Elf Rogue
19500
To those people saying "Just turn it off," I think that's a problem because it's not setting everyone to the same standards. Guilds, and the people in them, like to feel accomplished. Sure there's a time stamp on the achievement, but there's no way to tell if the 5% nerf option was used.

Yeah, I have an ego on the matter, but the majority of the player base--the ones who don't finish normal and heroic modes--should be content with LFR because it not only accomplishes letting them see the raid, but they get to gear up too.

If they can't get together with 9 other people, learn the mechanics and buff themselves properly...that's their problem. Join raid finder to enjoy the content and gear up.
90 Blood Elf Priest
0



That's BS and you know it.


I know nothing of the sort.

If recruitment was impossible unless you were at the very tippy top of progression, then nobody but the top guilds in the world would be recruiting.

At every level of progression, it is possible to recruit. You might not get the absolute top flight recruits...but if you're not downing hardmodes already, then you're not going to get the top flight recruits in any event.

Which goes hand in hand with my earlier comment - if you're already downing hardmodes, the buff means nothing. You can turn it off, continue doing exactly what you're doing, and not be affected in any way, shape or form by what other guilds are doing.



You seem to be of the impression that guilds come in "uber" "really good" and "bad". If we go from a 2/8 to 4/8 no buff, we're going to lose recruits to the 5/8, 6/8 guild. It won't kill the guild, but it will slow it down.


We're not even talking about top flight recruits, so im not sure where you got that notion. Using my above example, you don't go from top flight to no recruits... you go from recruits at your guilds level of play, to players that are lower. Especially if you have a guild(s) that are just ahead of you.


You're just makig up random babble at this point.
01/23/2012 06:58 PMPosted by Taercennx
In fact, you guys, as a raid team, have a option to turn it off. It will be you guys, as a raid team, that will choose not to.


ICC has shown that it's not quite so easy. Guilds are not just clones of 1 players' preferences.

Why does it matter? Seriously.
Play the game to have fun, not everything has to be a competition between your guild and the next.
I raid casually, not to compete with other guilds, but to just have fun doing what I like doing. I like killing bosses, I like the rush of a progression boss being at 3 percent. But just killing bosses to be ahead of another guild is absurd.
And as for the people who play the game to compete, Don't sweat it too much. Just keep in mind that there is always somebody, somewhere, who is going to be better than you. Who is going to outprogress you, outdps you, outheal you. I know it is a bit of a pessimistic stretch, but it's the truth. There can only be one number one spot.
Play for the right reasons, do not complain for the wrong ones.


It matters because i like to play how i like to play, not how you like to play. You say my way is no fun. I say your way is boring. Why can't we have both?


I've accepted we won't be # one. that doesn't mean the race means nothing.
Edited by Arianity on 1/23/2012 7:19 PM PST
90 Undead Warlock
8450
I'm actually quite content with the buff. Our guild being a casual guild has come to a decision that we are going to run without due to the fact of having LFR to see end content. All we really care about is progressing each week, and being casual and not having that much to pick from for peeps each week I would say were doing just fine.

I'm sure we will come to a point that we do hit a wall and its just nice knowing that we can turn that back on to help us get over the hump. From what I see so far it is hardcore raiders that are upset....go figure, but you downed your content and have your gear now its time for other guilds to get their chance at it.
Edited by Nossax on 1/23/2012 7:20 PM PST
90 Pandaren Warrior
16560
01/23/2012 07:13 PMPosted by Cyberweasel
Who do you think will get the most recruits? And which guild do you think will get skipped over the first? A guild recruiting top players has to look appealing and attractive at first glance for some people, and if they don't like what they see after reading that header, they will skip it and go on to read the next.


And you know what this really tells me? Most of the raiders out there don't mind the buff at all. Because if the majority of the raiders out there hated the buff that much...they would insist on raiding without it.

Which goes right back to Blizzard (the horror!) doing what the majority of their playerbase wants. Which, from a business standpoint, is the only intelligent thing to do. They're not out there looking for ways to make a minority viewpoint come to fruition, they're in this to make money.

Find me one company, just one for-profit company, that does otherwise, and I'll show you a company that fails in business 101.


Here's the thing though. Even very few raiders give a rats tail about heroic raiding.

We know its hard, it's supposed to be brutal and unforviging. That is it's purpose and intent. However, with BIS pre-heroic and maybe some gear from the easier ones, you might be able to down one or two, that's how it works for those of us in the middle. And there are a lot of us in the middle.

With how well tuned this tier is, this is the first one I was actually looking forward to trying some heroic modes. Tier 11 and tier 12 didn't even sound inviting, much less like they've even be remotely fun. This tier looks promising.

Now, the best tuned tier of the expac is going to be recieving a series of progressive nerfs that will push it to a point of being easier than tier 11 at con right after the nerfs hit. For players like myself, tier 11 was still challenging after the nerf bat when FLs was released. I believe that tier 13 is in a similar place right now. Semi-challenging without being brutal on normal.


We're not supporting exclusive content, don't think that at all. We're supporting the concept of actual MMO progression and allowing the best tuned tier to have some life before this starts. Because due to the holiday break, this is essentially coming after about 6 weeks. Which is 12 loot drops per boss on 10 man. TWELVE. There hasn't even been enough statistical time to say if people actually got a side grade at this point.

You're defending something that even those of us who have defended and fought for nerfs to previous Cata content are against. I HATED 4.0, 4.1, and 4.2. This game turned into an elitist mess for almost a year. 4.3 is a breath of fresh air, and darn near perfect. It needs touch up paint, not another layered coat.
Edited by Dorrell on 1/23/2012 7:24 PM PST
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