Nerfs.

85 Human Paladin
7095
01/23/2012 08:55 PMPosted by Aldiara
Most people make the same mistake when they talk about difficulty... They say "you just have to improve". But the problem with that, is how does me getting better at playing ret help my tank start using his CDs right?


Then you need to either find a new tank or teach the tank you have. If he can't effectively use his CDs or fails to properly mitigate damage then he is a terrible tank and should not be tanking.

01/23/2012 08:55 PMPosted by Aldiara
Personally improving only works if you personally are the reason your group is failing. People tend to completely overlook the entire rest of the group when it comes to the difficulty of content.


None of us are overlooking the rest of the group. The problem is that no one wants to tell someone they are failing because they don't want to hurt someone's feelings. So if your tank fails then you need to man up and tell him.

01/23/2012 08:55 PMPosted by Aldiara
But it's not just good players in bad guilds, there's players who the only guild they can find that works with their availability is pretty bad, or players who made the doomed decision of playing with family or friends.


Then work to improve your family/friends/guild skill level. I can show you a number of players who have done this. I have done it myself my previous guild was not so great, the GL just let people he knew into raid not caring if they could down content or not and I put my foot down along with a few other raiders and stopped it. Guess what happened? We got better over time to the point where finally we were pushing through content and people were getting better at their class/spec.

01/23/2012 08:55 PMPosted by Aldiara
These are the kind of people these nerfs are aimed to. The people who aren't openly available 24/7 that can just guarantee they can commit to almost any raid group in existence, the people who have to take care of a family or RL, or who work inconvenient hours... or the people who just wanted to play with some friends.


That's what the LFR was made for, to allow people with time constraints and other issues pressing on their play ability to see the content at a much reduced difficulty. Why give them the opportunity to complete normal and heroic DS when they still get to see all of DS already?

This really has to stop. A lot of you need to be put in a tough situation for once. Some of you need to have your guild disband tonight and your only choice of available raid spots is a pretty terrible guild.... You need to see what it's like to be held back because of other players, and because the better groups, who only have room for so many people in each raid, are full.

You need to accept that life happens in WoW, and sometimes it takes nerfing content to be able to get the people who should be doing the un-nerfed content a chance to actually do it.

This is to help success not come at the cost of having friends or family. Like I brought up a few pages back... to be successful in this game, you have to be ready to tell your mother, or your daughter, or your girlfriend that you're not playing with them anymore because they're bad. Do you REALLY not think theres a little problem there?

WoW is a raid or die game.... You have a choice, sacrifice everyone else so that you can raid, or choose to have friends and spend literally the entire time you're on your 85 just running around SW and Org because it's not like you're raiding and getting anywhere.....


I must say you are terribly wrong. I've been in some pretty bad guilds, I have taken some bad guilds and turned them into raid guilds. How? By telling people the truth, forcing them to improve and getting them to play at a higher level to therefore down the content the way it was introduced. Will it take longer? Absolutely but you will feel better about accomplishing it that way.

Now those of you who have time constraints and such have the option of the LFR which lets you see the content. Don't say "But I want the gear!" because if you aren't willing/able to put in the effort to get the gear then you don't deserve it. You pay $15 a month to play the game, you have the opportunity to get the loot if you are willing to push through the obstacles. I hate seeing people needing their hand held through stuff that is already easy.

01/23/2012 08:55 PMPosted by Aldiara
But yeah, lets not nerf content.... Let's just let great players stay locked out of content because they're not going to be a jerk to their own kid just to get gear with bigger numbers on it. You guys fought and fought to go to the extreme opposite of wrath, well, now deal with the nerfs that come with the raids.


If your a great player then push others to be great. The idea that you can't improve a player's skill level even if their time requirements are crappy is preposterious. Teach them about proper itemization, rotation even help them with enchants, gems and such! I've done it all before and I've probably sunk a lot of money into guilds that I am no longer a part of to help other raiders succeed so that as a group we succeed.
90 Blood Elf Paladin
8840
01/23/2012 09:05 PMPosted by Ashok
Now those of you who have time constraints and such have the option of the LFR which lets you see the content. Don't say "But I want the gear!" because if you aren't willing/able to put in the effort to get the gear then you don't deserve it. You pay $15 a month to play the game, you have the opportunity to get the loot if you are willing to push through the obstacles. I hate seeing people needing their hand held through stuff that is already easy.


So.... because I have to work tomorrow night, I need my hand held to get through the content and the best I'm capable of doing is LFR? Sorry, I officially apologize to the entire WoW community for not having an RL schedule that fits with almost every guild in the game.

Sometimes things hbappen that are beyond a single person's control. I know it's completely impossible to believe, but when you work a 3-11 shift, it's really really hard to be on WoW at 7 or 8.

Things like this are the reason taht I need more guilds clearing content, so there's more chance of a guild worth joining fitting my schedule, unless I want to settle for a group that's been wiping on the first boss for the last few weeks.

Stop grouping people with time constraints and people with a lack of skill together, we are two very different people. And when it comes to skill, I'll probably outplay you, easily.
85 Human Paladin
7095
So.... because I have to work tomorrow night, I need my hand held to get through the content and the best I'm capable of doing is LFR? Sorry, I officially apologize to the entire WoW community for not having an RL schedule that fits with almost every guild in the game.

Sometimes things hbappen that are beyond a single person's control. I know it's completely impossible to believe, but when you work a 3-11 shift, it's really really hard to be on WoW at 7 or 8.

Things like this are the reason taht I need more guilds clearing content, so there's more chance of a guild worth joining fitting my schedule, unless I want to settle for a group that's been wiping on the first boss for the last few weeks.

Stop grouping people with time constraints and people with a lack of skill together, we are two very different people. And when it comes to skill, I'll probably outplay you, easily.


1) Well tomorrow is 1 night. I know of several late night raiding guilds also many early morning raiding guilds as well as weekend guilds. There is also the early afternoon raiding guidls out there. Honestly how hard is it to find a guild that meets your time criteria? If you want to play with family/friends then come to a group decision about a raid time and raid. If the only thing keeping you from entering a solid raid progression is a work schedule then that is not the raid's fault nor blizzard's. That is your's for not looking hard enough to find a guild(s) that fit your requirements.

2) My point was not to lump people with time constraints and unskilled players together it was simply the way Blizzard has made it clear about why the LFR was instituted. They gave you LFR for a reason if you believe you can compete in normal DS and heroic DS then do so! Find the guild that works for you and do it, just like I've had to do in the past and just like a lot of other raiders have had to do.

3) Why are you comparing skills with me? Honestly I'm not saying I'm better than anyone or that anyone is bad here. I am giving constructive reasons as to why this change to DS difficulty is unnecessary and is continuing to destroy raiding in WoW.
85 Blood Elf Rogue
4130
01/23/2012 09:23 AMPosted by Dyná



Wait, what? The guy splits into two and the raid splits into two groups. Other than that you do the exact same thing. One added mechanic, same boss fight.

I stand by my statement that all raid content is accessible. Gear / achievements is what you want. Difficulty is just a setting.


Difficulty is not just a setting as long as they tie all the rewards and achievements to it.

In any event, my main point is being lost, so I'll try again.

I firmly believe that there should not be any content / gear in the game that less than half of one percent of the player base will ever get to earn. That's it.

I understand why they jack up the difficulty in the beginning, which is to make the top 0.1 or 0.2% feel special, but when they turn around and start easing the difficulty down so that more than 100 people per 1,000,000 can do it, don't get all surprised.

If there are 3 difficulties in a raid, I would be happier if the completion rates were 80%, 50%, 30% instead of this 30% 10% 0.2% crap we have now.


and most people would leave the game who are currently raiding heroics if 30% of the population was completing heroics because they would be insanely easy like the difficulty normal level is at.
90 Tauren Shaman
11775
IM HERE TO TAKE YOUR LOOTZ

oh wait its not shared
85 Blood Elf Rogue
4130
01/23/2012 01:12 PMPosted by Dyná


Thank god this isn't a thread about Arena/RBG achievements then.


That's different, players set the difficulty level.

When you are versus players of different skill level, no doubt there will be players that are in the top 1%.

Good thing you don't need gladiator to have a full set of gear though.


Yeah because obviously there is no difference in skill between players its just time raided /facepalm you should look up a guild called cuties only they raided 20 hours a week max and were in the top 20 for quite a few years there are definite difference in skill and awareness between average raiders and world class ones.
90 Blood Elf Priest
0
Sometimes things hbappen that are beyond a single person's control. I know it's completely impossible to believe, but when you work a 3-11 shift, it's really really hard to be on WoW at 7 or 8.



There's late night guilds over on malganis. They don't start till 3-4 am.



Cya soon?
since this can be turned off it seems the real issue is some people not liking others getting a chance to see the new content. (or feeling it should be as hard for everyone as it was for them) well if you like it crazy hard turn of the balance button and let it be crazy hard for you. wow has a lot of subscribers and they all should have a chance to see all the content they are paying for too. I consider myself a casual player though my play time would probably suggest other wise. I really like the looking for dungeon feature and think the looking for raid should be just as good. I think blizzard has been making huge steps to make this game as fun and challenging as possible for everyone and hope they keep it up. well that's my two cents.
In closing I would just like to say thanks blizzard and please keep wowing going as long as possible.
90 Blood Elf Priest
0
01/23/2012 09:58 PMPosted by Kirzondax
since this can be turned off it seems the real issue is some people not liking others getting a chance to see the new content. (or feeling it should be as hard for everyone as it was for them) well if you like it crazy hard turn of the balance button and let it be crazy hard for you. wow has a lot of subscribers and they all should have a chance to see all the content they are paying for to



So because i pay 15$ a month, blizzard should level my toons for me, get full achievements, gear, pets and mounts? What about all those pvp mounts and titles? I pay for all that content too, i should get to see it.


You got to see the content in LFR. That's not an excuse anymore.
90 Pandaren Warrior
16560
01/23/2012 09:58 PMPosted by Kirzondax
since this can be turned off it seems the real issue is some people not liking others getting a chance to see the new content


Good grief, read the thread. This is far from the reason.
90 Tauren Druid
6980
[quote]
I don't know, man. How is it good for the game to have 1% of players parading around for months and months and a 99% sitting around with nothing to do because they're sick and tired of wiping?

Your solution is "Well then they should get better or quit." and that's just not reasonable for a video game comprised of millions of people looking to just have some fun. It's still a computer game.


Yes millions of people are looking to have fun - but the overall issue here is that LFR was supposed to be for those people. Normals and Heroics were for people who wanted a challenge.

This "Wall" you're saying they're hitting is I'm sure entirely depending on their gear and skill level combined. I think there's a point when a player needs to be told - this is something that may take a week or two and frankly - a week or two is short compared to previous progression time.

Standing up to a boss fight every night for a month straight is a wall. One 4 hour night of wiping is upsetting and frustrating - but it is not a wall. The gear for the most part is very readily accessible. If people these people have the gear and are still having these issues they need to look to strategy not to you (Blizzard) to make all their problems go away.

I remember back in vanilla when having tier meant you accomplished something. Anyone could look at your character and say "Wow, they must be good." You've made these things so ubiquitous that they don't even matter anymore. The challenge and prestige of completing the content is gone. That - is what I think the issue is.
85 Blood Elf Rogue
4130
01/23/2012 09:25 PMPosted by Aldiara
Now those of you who have time constraints and such have the option of the LFR which lets you see the content. Don't say "But I want the gear!" because if you aren't willing/able to put in the effort to get the gear then you don't deserve it. You pay $15 a month to play the game, you have the opportunity to get the loot if you are willing to push through the obstacles. I hate seeing people needing their hand held through stuff that is already easy.


So.... because I have to work tomorrow night, I need my hand held to get through the content and the best I'm capable of doing is LFR? Sorry, I officially apologize to the entire WoW community for not having an RL schedule that fits with almost every guild in the game.

Sometimes things hbappen that are beyond a single person's control. I know it's completely impossible to believe, but when you work a 3-11 shift, it's really really hard to be on WoW at 7 or 8.

Things like this are the reason taht I need more guilds clearing content, so there's more chance of a guild worth joining fitting my schedule, unless I want to settle for a group that's been wiping on the first boss for the last few weeks.

Stop grouping people with time constraints and people with a lack of skill together, we are two very different people. And when it comes to skill, I'll probably outplay you, easily.


There are also daytime raiding guilds check out daytimeraiding.com also if you would stop being so damn arrogant seeing as you have no idea of others skill levels yet in every post you are like I would outplay you, you might get people to actually read your posts. Seeing as I have read your posts you're basically saying you want to be able to carry bads given a guild that isn't carrying bads that leaves them with pretty crappy options for raiding.
90 Human Warrior
16790
This "Wall" you're saying they're hitting is I'm sure entirely depending on their gear and skill level combined. I think there's a point when a player needs to be told - this is something that may take a week or two and frankly - a week or two is short compared to previous progression time.

Standing up to a boss fight every night for a month straight is a wall. One 4 hour night of wiping is upsetting and frustrating - but it is not a wall. The gear for the most part is very readily accessible. If people these people have the gear and are still having these issues they need to look to strategy not to you (Blizzard) to make all their problems go away.


Correct. The two main problems I have with the nerf are thus.

1. If there is a wall, (and I believe H Spine qualifies), then Blizzard should be methodical in its tuning of that specific boss as to not turn the tier into another T12 where every guild is 6/7H and nearly every guild can only be measured on their Rag progress. Nerfing EVERYTHING doesn't serve to bring down the wall, because everything else is shifted relative as well. Not to mention we don't even know what Blizzard counts as a wall. Last time they gave us an example was in relation to PuGs where they said players felt like they hit a wall at 3-4 wipes. 4 wipes does not a wall make.

2. It's indicative of a major change in philosophy again, running counter to the one they set not even two months ago. "Everyone should see the content.", that's why we got LFR. Now everyone can see and kill Deathwing. The other modes are if you want bigger challenge. Now we have CMs saying "Everyone should see all the difficulties.". This is a problem because usually only the people who are, you know, interested in difficulty attempt those bosses. Telling us that everyone is entitled to every difficulty is retarded because there is no way to balance those for "everyone" while maintaining the challenge. LFR is for everyone, Heroic modes are not. It's only starting at 5%, but Blizzard isn't very conservative when it comes to flinging themselves off slippery slopes.
90 Tauren Hunter
7045
This isn't a thread about nerfing content, it's about elitists wanting to feel better than everyone else. They don't care if they can opt out of the nerf, they are crying (take note of that word) because they can't feed of the tears of those who complain it's too hard.

Let me hand the OP a tissue...
90 Tauren Hunter
7045
Nerfing EVERYTHING doesn't serve to bring down the wall, because everything else is shifted relative as well. Not to mention we don't even know what Blizzard counts as a wall.

You counter yourself. If you don't know what Blizzard counts as a wall how are you justified / authorized to criticize them on it?
100 Gnome Mage
11025
here is the way i look at it, its like your taking a test in a hard class that you need to get the grade up on and you get stuck on a question that you have no idea what the answer is and then your teacher says "ill give you 2 answers on this test if you want" and the "hardcore players" will turn it down? i see no logic in failing, or wanting to blow 1k gold on your repair bill after wiping over and over...
Edited by Naldon on 1/23/2012 10:29 PM PST
90 Pandaren Warrior
16560
This isn't a thread about nerfing content, it's about elitists wanting to feel better than everyone else. They don't care if they can opt out of the nerf, they are crying (take note of that word) because they can't feed of the tears of those who complain it's too hard.

Let me hand the OP a tissue...


So the fact that it's tuned closer to the nerfed versions of the previous tiers already means nothing.

The fact that the amount of time given for progression is abnormally shot due to the holidays means nothing.

The fact that people who have championed the cause for the LFR and the previous tier's nerfs (like myself) are against this nerf means nothing.

The fact that this slowly removes the challenge level from the competitive content means nothing.


Please read over the thread a bit. This is bigger than elitist whining, which is something I frequently call out. (Although there is a decent amount of that in here as well....)
Edited by Dorrell on 1/23/2012 10:23 PM PST
90 Human Warrior
16790
01/23/2012 10:19 PMPosted by Snall
You counter yourself. If you don't know what Blizzard counts as a wall how are you justified / authorized to criticize them on it?


Blizzard says there is a wall. They won't tell us where, but most progressed Raiders know there is a mighty big one at Spine. Blizzard however doesn't seem to acknowledge this, and instead nerfed everything by the same amount.

Maybe they think regular Morchok is a wall, they're nerfing it as much as Heroic Spine. That screams laziness and lack of foresight. Shifting everything down 5% doesn't change the fact that Spine will still be 10x harder than the other bosses. Nerfing all of Firelands didn't make the 6/7H to 7/7H jump any easier for most guilds, it just carried them into the wall faster.
62 Gnome Death Knight
4190
I wonder why they can't implement something (both in dungeons and raids) like ZA's mount. Wouldn't this make everyone happy. Make it unobtainable if you use the nerf-debuff at all. It wouldn't affect anyone's progression, it would be a mini-heroic mode for raids/dungeons that wouldn't necessarily be as hard as a heroic raid (for raids) or normal raid (for dungeons) but something that the better players could go for.

It wouldn't affect progression of the slower players who need the nerf to down bosses and when they gear up in normal they can try without the nerf to get the mount/title/vanity pet whatever. This lets the top raiders let everyone know they did it nerf-free and lets the nerfs come in for lesser players while still giving them incentive to get better.

And best of all, being a non-gear non-upgrade there wouldn't be much of a reason for blizz to nerf this mount/title/vanity pet so everyone can get it. (Ideally).



This is an awesome idea.
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