Nerfs.

90 Blood Elf Priest
12170
01/18/2012 06:52 PMPosted by Bashiok
Believe it or not there are actually guilds and raiding groups that are attempting to progress through Normal and Heroic raids, but are hitting a wall, and have been hitting a wall.

And that is a part of raiding.

Holy jeezuz. Do people not remember working on bosses for more than one reset at a time?
90 Human Warrior
10750
The ability to "choose" to turn off a buff, but not giving incentive to do so, is the same as not giving the option to begin with. Haven't you learned this from ICC? It's not the first time you've taken this route in terms of nerfs.

The incentive is simple: you know you did it without the buff/debuff.

Anything else is ego related and can be thrown out the window.
11 Undead Warlock
0
01/18/2012 06:55 PMPosted by Rastok
it doesn't matter what you say to the naysayers. They are gonna complain about it regardless of anything. People need to stop worrying about everyone elses "tainted" achievement and worry about themselves and the satisfaction of knowing that they did it the "hard way".



Isn't uneccesary incentive the thing people are dogging about this, the buff, giving uneccessary incentive, to Undeserving players, for no reason!!

Oh wait, I want to click off a button.

Make it slightly *very very marginally* more diffucult....


I WANT A REWARD.

Really, this buff, is about the difference of a ~7% wipe and a kill.

Thats what people are complaining in droves about.
85 Dwarf Priest
5200
I'm quite laughing at the people saying "Turn the Buff Off".

You don't understand the point and matter of myself, and the other people are complaining about.


I do. You don't like the fact that people can complete the Heroic Raid with the buff. You don't want people to be able to do so, because you think it will diminish the effort you put in to doing it without the buff. Mainly because there's no distinction to be made between those who do it with and those who do it without. You think that because you did it without the buff that everyone should have to. Oh, I get it.

In other words, you're suffering from "Special Snowflake Syndrome".

It's a common malady among raiders working on Heroic Mode content, which becomes increasingly more common the further into the content people get. Symptoms usually include forums posts aimed at Blizzard complaining about nerfs, forums posts disguised to hide the real message of belittling people who completed it with the buff, and all around elitist douch baggery.

The best known cure for this ailment is a simple morning exercise that you should perform before every raid. Look at yourself in the mirror and repeat this phrase ten times. "It's just a game, and I'm just playing for fun."

Be warned that if left untreated, this illness will progress to the point where you begin to ragequit. As the ragequits become more frequent, you will suffer from chronic online depression and possibly even contemplating slashing your account's funding. If you do reach this point, the illness becomes incurable, and all hope is lost.

Consider yourself warned.
100 Blood Elf Death Knight
17545
Sc%@@@@! tehe
90 Pandaren Warrior
16560
01/18/2012 06:58 PMPosted by Arianenna
Believe it or not there are actually guilds and raiding groups that are attempting to progress through Normal and Heroic raids, but are hitting a wall, and have been hitting a wall.

And that is a part of raiding.

Holy jeezuz. Do people not remember working on bosses for more than one reset at a time?


Or even stuff like the Kael fight in BC that still took guilds weeks of attemtps even after if was nerfed several times.

There's a time for nerfs and a time for surgical adjustments. This is not the time for nerfs.
85 Gnome Mage
10660
Hitting a wall is part of raiding. Period. I was okay with the ICC/Firelands nerfs because they seemed like post tuning. You introduced raid finder. There is no more "post tuning," and it's embarrassing that you have to resort to that even now.
Smacky, can I be honest?

If you hate it so much, quit. Nobody will miss you. lol

There, I'm using your attitude against you. umadbro?
90 Blood Elf Priest
0
01/18/2012 06:52 PMPosted by Bashiok
If a guild doesn't want the help, they're free to opt out of the buff. For those that do it's an approximate 5% change, which is pretty minor, and we expect it to be about a month before we raise it another 5%. This first change will absolutely help the guilds that are just barely sc@%#!*# by, or just need a tiny bump to cross the next hurdle, but it's just not logical to exclaim that someone will roll into Raid Finder, grab a couple items, then be looting Heroic Deathwing's corpse the next night.



Be nice if you added that achieve we've been asking for since ICC, just saying.


Or a slider, so we could do 5-30%, besides being stuck on the arbitrary % you picked, that may or may not be too much for our particular group.
01/18/2012 06:52 PMPosted by Bashiok
Believe it or not there are actually guilds and raiding groups that are attempting to progress through Normal and Heroic raids, but are hitting a wall, and have been hitting a wall


FWIW, anecdotal evidence being anecdotal, with christmas break, some guilds haven't even gotten enough attempts in to get frustated.

:l


Considering how hard it was to get people to turn the buff off (pretty much no one did, as i assume you know), i'm not looking forward to it. It's easy to say "oh, it's optional". It's not easy to ask 24 other people to give it up, especially with no reward or recognition. Nevermind if they're competing against other guilds (believe it or not, some people still like the race, even if they're not world first, or even server first).



<incoming frustrated rant>
Why not just send DS purples in the mail? People could just delete them. It'd be totally optional, i'm sure people wouldn't take them.

01/18/2012 06:52 PMPosted by Bashiok
Very few players are willing to suit up, buff up, do all the necessary requirements to raid, jump in, and then do no better than they did last week for hours and hours, only to return next week and do the same.


Those are players, not raiders. They've got LFR, or hell, normal. Last i checked, heroic was supposed to be hard.
Edited by Arianity on 1/18/2012 7:04 PM PST
90 Human Warrior
13525
For everyone reading, this is in reference to: http://us.battle.net/wow/en/blog/4326384/Dragon_Soul_Difficulty_Changes-1_18_2012#blog

Believe it or not there are actually guilds and raiding groups that are attempting to progress through Normal and Heroic raids, but are hitting a wall, and have been hitting a wall. We have actual statistical data we base our changes on, we know exactly how many people are clearing these raids each week, we know exactly how many people are able to down just a few bosses, and how many were only able to down a few bosses every week for weeks on end and then stopped raiding altogether.

The issue we're constantly trying to combat is the one where people feel like they're just out of options. One way this is an issue is the content is too easy, they blasted through it, have everything they could possibly want, and have nothing else to do. Ideally that's a small subset of very hardcore players. For everyone else it's a feeling of just being stuck with no possible way to progress. Very few players are willing to suit up, buff up, do all the necessary requirements to raid, jump in, and then do no better than they did last week for hours and hours, only to return next week and do the same.

If a guild doesn't want the help, they're free to opt out of the buff. For those that do it's an approximate 5% change, which is pretty minor, and we expect it to be about a month before we raise it another 5%. This first change will absolutely help the guilds that are just barely sc@%#!*# by, or just need a tiny bump to cross the next hurdle, but it's just not logical to exclaim that someone will roll into Raid Finder, grab a couple items, then be looting Heroic Deathwing's corpse the next night.

We feel the content has been out for quite a while now, that most people who have progressed and downed Deathwing on Heroic have done so, they've had sufficient time to celebrate in their accomplishments, and these very small progressive alterations will only help guilds that are already doing well in the raid get over some hurdles they may be facing.


Keep calling the majority of players bad....

How do you expect people to get better if there is nothing to get better with?

It's like playing starcraft against the computer and calling yourself the best in the world when you win without losing 1 unit... to only find that when you log on to battle.net and PVP you get destroyed time and time again.

What you are basically doing is telling people to go back to playing the comp, because its easier, and they'll feel good..

You are setting gamers up to fail and become worse.. you'll never be able to raise the bar, because you constantly lower it. No one will get better because there is nothing to get better with. You ruined your own game and this genre forever.

These devs need to be fired fast... So sick of money ruling all... Blizzard use to be about the quality of their games, not the money.... thats why it takes you so long to release your games, remember?



They DID NO RUIN IT. They're giving you a choice to make you be better. Money isn't ruling it. They still care about quality.... see now you're being ridiculous.
85 Troll Mage
12325
Believe it or not there are actually guilds and raiding groups that are attempting to progress through Normal and Heroic raids, but are hitting a wall, and have been hitting a wall.


Isn't hitting a wall a part of raiding, though? If there are no walls people will not push themselves to do better. Clearly, it's well established at this point that the content is not impossible. I would hope your team has considered the possible drawback of tearing down the walls too quickly, which will leave people bored until MoP is out.


Yes, but the number of people who are willing to hit that wall week in and week out is quite small. Bashiok says they have hard numbers on how many people give up vs. how many people are willing to facegrind until Good Things Happen and the persistent ones are in the minority.

People need to turn off their Special Snowflake Syndrome. If the haters were important enough to go 8/8HM they'd have done it by now.
Edited by Baarbakyuud on 1/18/2012 7:02 PM PST
01/18/2012 06:59 PMPosted by Youscared
it doesn't matter what you say to the naysayers. They are gonna complain about it regardless of anything. People need to stop worrying about everyone elses "tainted" achievement and worry about themselves and the satisfaction of knowing that they did it the "hard way".



Isn't uneccesary incentive the thing people are dogging about this, the buff, giving uneccessary incentive, to Undeserving players, for no reason!!

Oh wait, I want to click off a button.

Make it slightly *very very marginally* more diffucult....


I WANT A REWARD.

Really, this buff, is about the difference of a ~7% wipe and a kill.

Thats what people are complaining in droves about.




what I think is that people are complaining about is the fact that the guilds out there that need the buff don't deserve to get the same credit as those that don't. What my point was is that who cares about the other guilds. worry about your own
90 Human Warrior
0
I could understand why this buff was added for ICC, but since we have LFR now do we really need this? If people are having a bit of difficulty going through normal modes, why not do a few runs in LFR and hope the loot you get there will help you progress through normal modes?

I'm not a raider, but even I find this option to be rather odd. Wouldn't it just be easier to do Dragon Soul at LFR difficulty rather than having to constantly turn the off buff every time you enter Dragon Soul at normal?
95 Night Elf Druid
7790
And that is a part of raiding.

Holy jeezuz. Do people not remember working on bosses for more than one reset at a time?
Yes, plenty of us do. And some of us would rather not go back to the model of spending hours and hours every night clearing trash or wiping on bosses. The monotony of doing the same thing over and over for sometimes months was terrifying. Frankly, I prefer the newer raiding model. Never again will I sacrifice as much time as I did way back in "the good old days".
55 Undead Warrior
7525
01/18/2012 07:00 PMPosted by Smackyouout
You're a Cataclysm baby, where the content is evidently spoonfed to you, because just like you. And the other people in this thread that are saying the buff 'Isn't a big deal', you like content being spoonfed to you.

This logic is completely stupid and flawed. I'm saying the same thing, but played in Vanilla.

*looks around*

Here's the only character I have remaining on my account from back there. Not my oldest character, but the oldest remaining on this account.
90 Orc Hunter
18075
For everyone reading, this is in reference to: http://us.battle.net/wow/en/blog/4326384/Dragon_Soul_Difficulty_Changes-1_18_2012#blog

Believe it or not there are actually guilds and raiding groups that are attempting to progress through Normal and Heroic raids, but are hitting a wall, and have been hitting a wall. We have actual statistical data we base our changes on, we know exactly how many people are clearing these raids each week, we know exactly how many people are able to down just a few bosses, and how many were only able to down a few bosses every week for weeks on end and then stopped raiding altogether.

The issue we're constantly trying to combat is the one where people feel like they're just out of options. One way this is an issue is the content is too easy, they blasted through it, have everything they could possibly want, and have nothing else to do. Ideally that's a small subset of very hardcore players. For everyone else it's a feeling of just being stuck with no possible way to progress. Very few players are willing to suit up, buff up, do all the necessary requirements to raid, jump in, and then do no better than they did last week for hours and hours, only to return next week and do the same.

If a guild doesn't want the help, they're free to opt out of the buff. For those that do it's an approximate 5% change, which is pretty minor, and we expect it to be about a month before we raise it another 5%. This first change will absolutely help the guilds that are just barely sc@%#!*# by, or just need a tiny bump to cross the next hurdle, but it's just not logical to exclaim that someone will roll into Raid Finder, grab a couple items, then be looting Heroic Deathwing's corpse the next night.

We feel the content has been out for quite a while now, that most people who have progressed and downed Deathwing on Heroic have done so, they've had sufficient time to celebrate in their accomplishments, and these very small progressive alterations will only help guilds that are already doing well in the raid get over some hurdles they may be facing.


My main problem is that no one needs to see heroic mode. It is an optional challenge mode. If you want a greater amount of people to complete normal, this makes sense and satisfies the largest amount of the player base. But hard modes...if you can't kill something, then you can't kill it. That is the extent of your and/or the abilities of your guild. And this is OK. It is ok to not kill everything. I did not kill most raid bosses in BC, but still had the best time raiding I ever had in WoW during BC. As long as players are given quality, fun content to partake in, they will be happy. No one needs to see all content to be happy. And if they do, that is what LFR is for. If you can't kill all, most, or any hard mode bosses, then hard modes are just not for you or not for your guild. People need to be able to accept failure. You either rise to the occasion or not. You don't have the challenge brought down to meet you. But so many players in WoW nowadays can't handle not winning. Questing takes no effort, you can't lose at it. Or even have any trouble. Almost all dungeons while leveling are a joke, you really can't lose at them. And now when people hit a wall in endgame, it is acceptable to bring the content down to their level. Nerf normal if you must, which I don't agree with since we have LFR, but there is no reason to touch hard modes. If you are doing hard modes, you have already killed normal Deathwing, and are now just in it for the challenge. You have already completed the expansion, hard modes are optional. And no, hard mode guilds cant just "turn the buff off", between server first races and world rankings, you don't have that option if you are a serious hard mode guild.
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