The pains of small guilds on a small server.

02/24/2012 05:39 PMPosted by Akraen
Real guilds raid 5-7 nights.

I'd so wish to see that still happen T_T
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100 Undead Warrior
18225
One night per week is all you can handle? Why even call it a hobby, or even a game at that point. 3-4 nights IS CASUAL. Real guilds raid 5-7 nights.

Wow, things have changed since Vanilla.


5-7 nites? wut slav drivers. any raid longer then 40 minuts shuld be removed from game.
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85 Night Elf Druid
13380
Realm transfers aren't that expensive. I say more people need to abandon ship.

Ysera's a good server.
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85 Draenei Shaman
3995
In vanilla i remember raiding 5-7 nights a week 4-5 during BC 3-4 during LK and now its down a barren 1-2. I have to say i Miss Vanilla AND BC seemed like so many more people around. I miss everythin about vanilla and BC the difficulty, the story, the fights everything was so much more enjoyable then. Although i miss those times i also like the small guilds i just wish there were just a few more people. But what can ya do.
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100 Orc Warrior
14115
02/24/2012 05:39 PMPosted by Akraen
Real guilds raid 5-7 nights.


Think I'd rather shoot myself. 3 nights is already enough. At least for this terrible raid, anyway.
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85 Draenei Shaman
3995
I will agree with you there the raids havent been the same to me Since Vanilla and BC and Dragon Soul is just the worst of the worst by far.
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32 Orc Hunter
480
Don't know how you keep RL running while raiding 5-7 nights.

Kids? Housework? Laundry? Groceries? Family? Friends? Cooking? Cleaning?

Unless you're talking about 1-2hrs only raids?
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85 Night Elf Druid
13380
Well, we raid 3 nights, that's kind of why Natural Order exists-- actual progression yet only a 3 night commitment.

Most hardcore guilds do 5+ while progressing.

I don't understand how someone can say 3 nights is too much though. It's just a hobby degree of commitment at that point.
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85 Dwarf Death Knight
13230
As far as raiding is concerned Steamwheedle Cartel is rife with problems that stem from far deeper problems than simply population, though population is a large factor. I'll address each issue in detail:

1) How Population Actually Hurts

What may surprise people is that the actual skill distribution per server by proportion is almost identical. Given that the proportion is the same, what actually changes is the absolute number of skilled players per server. SwC is reported as a medium pop server, but actual active players really indicate that its population is low. This means that we have an already extremely small talent pool to take from. A lot of that pool has defaulted to LD / Pantheon / HB, though there's a fairly significant portion that more or less refuses outright to join them (More on that in a bit). A fair number of other problems come directly from this: We cannot attract off-server players, our AH prices are attrocious - 300g for a red blue quality gem? Really? You can get orange and purple gems of the same quality for about 1/8 the price. Consumables are also absurd, and smaller guilds are left to farm a ton of fish / herbs for themselves, and because the raiding population is small the demand for these items is really not high, creating a feedback loop where people just don't farm the items at all.

2) Server Mentality - How Raiding is Viewed

And no, I don't mean externally, like "Oh man those raiding guys are awesome" or "Man they have no life." I mean the way the people who raid on this server actually approach the beast.

Firstly, let's address the non-top guilds, the small guilds that barely raid. I'm going to be honest here - None of you want to raid in what a progression environment actually entails, or you'd be there. Progression has an extremely direct correlation to time spent; the top guilds in the worlds progress quickly because they put in the amount of time in a week that normal people would do over a few months. This mentality draws people together, and often these people are not raiding with people who are already their friends, but rather make them, if they do at all. Many progression raiders literally log in just to kill bosses and get off. This mentality could not be farther from what most of you exhibit. A lot of you want to do small 10m stuff with friends at a relaxed pace. Unless you abandon the delusion that this will happen with progression (Except for edge cases, it will not), you're not going to get anywhere. The first major steps to get yourself out of this particular rut is:

a) Admit you're bad. Sorry, but it's true! A grand majority of the players on this server exhibit subpar DPS / HPS / TPS, and subpar to a large degree. To do heroic content pre-nerf you'll need to be a lot better numbers-wise. There isn't much to do about this but suck it up, learn up on your class, and practice your rotations. If all else fails, ask somebody better than you! You'd be surprised at how willing most people are to explain some of the more difficult aspects of a class.

b) Separate friends and raiding. Drop your guilds and join up into a larger one. Maybe you don't get to lead it - Let your ego fall by the wayside. Maybe you have to respec. Deal with it. Maybe you'll see time on the bench - It's better than never downing a boss, isn't it? Maybe your friends don't want to raid heroic content - Level another character to play with them, or just let them know you won't be raiding with them. If you actually want to raid seriously, it has to be something you show a level of commitment to past just playing for fun.

Now, secondly (YES THIS IS STILL PART OF NUMBER TWO), the issues with how actual raiding guilds on the server treat raiding. Here's a shocker - The only real differences between Pantheon / LD / HB and a small 10-man are how many hours they put in! "But Furor, you're all so much better, right?" Well, yes, on an individual numbers basis, we are - As a result of time spent. When I was in Pantheon in WotLK we were putting in four hours a night four to five nights a week, and we were still very far behind on the progression curve! Why? Because of the core issue with how the "top guilds" here are forced to handle raiding:

There are almost no consequences for poor performance.

Wait, what? You'd assume that if you !@#$ up you get benched, right?

cont in next post
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85 Dwarf Death Knight
13230
Who are we taking from the bench? What bench? How do you keep a bench when you barely can field a full raid of competent players? When our healers don't log on, progression stops. If a tank doesn't get on, well !@#$, it looks like our raid comp goes to %^-* because we need certain players to heal and a DPS to tank, and we lose DPS as a result. And secondarily, how do you tell your brother / friend / relative you're benching him because he's bad? Vael is a lot better about this than ANY of the raid leaders I ever had in Panth (Shaorin, the most hardcore about it, only benched two people for poor performance the entire time I was there, and both were due to screwups so large you would never raid again on the server for on a more serious realm), but even he can only go so far. I can't speak to modern Pantheon or HB, though given server health I can't imagine their situation is all the different from our own.

Conclusion: If you want to raid, know what you're getting into first. Serious raiding will require a lot more than just a chat channel and some organization. Progression isn't really as glorious as it seems - It's a lot of wiping, frustration, experimentation, wiping to content you've already beaten (BETH'TILACCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCCC), etc.
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It is not that some of us dont want to join the bigger guilds to raid, its that all of them dont want a rogue, even if s/he does nice dps T_T
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2 Dwarf Hunter
0
So... isn't that why LFR was created? If you can't raid, LFR. If you wanna try raiding, do Normal. If you want a challenge, do Heroics.

If you're in Heroics raiding guild and don't run it like a draconian buyout firm, you'll most likely never see end boss.

If you're in Normal raiding guild and don't run it like a public sector unionized department, you'll down the first one or two bosses and muddle through the rest month after month.

If you're in LFR, you're there to enjoy the game and the scenery. Ooooh, shiny!
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85 Worgen Rogue
11075
02/28/2012 09:15 AMPosted by Taniara
It is not that some of us dont want to join the bigger guilds to raid, its that all of them dont want a rogue, even if s/he does nice dps T_T


We don't ask allot, just that you do the basic research on your class and put yourself together properly.

wrath leg enchants
no belt buckle
wrong enchant on gloves
lower weapon enchants
wrong bracer enchant 50crit vs 50agi
lower chest enchant
low lvl shoulder enchant
Wrong meta gem
wrong gem in shoulders,chest, belt
next to no reforging
wrong glyph, ks over snd
wrong cape enchant even if you were going for lower end to save gold 22agi beats out 50crit

as you are now assuming you play well
34513 dps

if you fixed everything
36900 dps

http://shadowcraft.mmo-mumble.com/us/steamwheedle-cartel/taniara/#!/dY/NTsMwEITfxWcfYreJI80pHAgSP60grapGOdgJaa2FpkJpoW/PJq4CHLC19u7nHXtcKino9AIVF9CEfUFoshTw5xbQb+DhN56Pl9B34eg6fF9Aze3QNOAm2wHUfeAHhKCz4r7LX2xAxxuo2T30ZcLMOqgkH4yEl3y/Ym37C3x+seppcnYK1W2oHoIzmk1Jz/IU+v0qp+OSgQn+N3bMdTa2dslIhRSPftv4ul7Xlvx6G7WMnEvg7ILjGc5FcCsHt885N0KWpZFRJYU6wCBeAPxfpPNxQ474wJeWSv47WYqhO+bV8togwY6vQopXUVXf


not calling you out, and I hope you don't take this the wrong way.

If you fix the above and play well, try apping again. 2.4k dps on the house.
Edited by Dlog on 2/28/2012 2:44 PM PST
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85 Night Elf Druid
13380
Wow Furor, you put more effort into that post than you ever did in Natural Order, tee hee hee.

While I agree with the things you posted I don't think that's the full story as you're giving Pantheon and Lucid Dream way too much credit. First, LD is a 10-man guild, which isn't difficult to run. Second, Pantheon was only "good" in Sunwell, and even then only to a point.

All guilds on Steamwheedle have always fallen victim to the sensitivities of their leadership, including mine when I was on SwC.

Where you're correct here is that there are no consequences for poor performance. With x-server raids, LFR, conquest gear ilvl, etc. the elusive heroic raid carrot just isn't as tantalizing. Further, getting them to put up with the personality conflicts of 25-man heroic is even harder.

That's why 46,000 guilds killed Marrowgar on Heroic 25-man, and only 2,000 have killed Morchok on Heroic 25-man, and he's as easy as a heroic boss can be.
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90 Orc Death Knight
14150
akraen did ando quit again?
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85 Night Elf Druid
13380
Yes
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85 Dwarf Death Knight
13230
I could give you another writeup about why managing 25s vs 10s is a huge myth - The management of 25 people is not why 10m is so popular - But you're essentially a broken record when it comes to raid size (WERE NOT GONNA DO TENS FOR ACHIEVES BECAUSE !@#$ THOSE, thanks for the lack of a Plagued Protodrake bee tee dubs)

As for effort in NO, el oh el. Of course I dindt have to put in effort to %^-* on your meters, DKs were broken.
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90 Orc Death Knight
14150
02/29/2012 08:03 AMPosted by Furor
As for effort in NO, el oh el. Of course I dindt have to put in effort to %^-* on your meters, DKs were broken.


How many times have you ranked on any fights again?
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72 Human Rogue
410
02/29/2012 08:03 AMPosted by Furor
As for effort in NO, el oh el. Of course I dindt have to put in effort to %^-* on your meters, DKs were broken.


So you admit that you only play broken classes because you don't want to try?

(THIS IS SOLENDRYS BTW, OTHER ACCOUNT IS BANNED UNTIL TOMORROW)
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100 Orc Warrior
14115
02/29/2012 08:03 AMPosted by Furor
could give you another writeup about why managing 25s vs 10s is a huge myth


I'd like to see how you can justify the notion that getting 9 other people to show up and work together is of the same difficulty as getting 24 other people to show up and work together.
Edited by Freznar on 2/29/2012 5:24 PM PST
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