Who are tank healers?

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1 Worgen Mage
0
01/25/2012 03:48 PMPosted by Maharal
You stated that disc's max HPS was significantly lower than other healers. If you're taking into account things like damage reduction cooldowns, then they're really on par, thats all im saying. Honestly, disc AoE healing ability is just as good as, if not better than some other AoE healers because of their ability to drastically reduce damage taken.


If you are taking into account fights where aura mastery is relevant, then disc is way behind paladins. Barrier is a lot weaker on 10. On the best possible case for barrier (domo normal 25), barrier can definitely mitigate a million or two. Usually it's not enough to change the overall hps equation. But then, disc is valuable for things unrelated to hps. It's the best spec for saving lives.


I think I figured out the problem....3400 Spirit, Heartsong and Heart Of Unliving(not terrible...but with 3400 spirit....questionable). Are do you use a separate sets for Holy and Disc, or the same set?(if so, then I think I've found the problem)

Blew has 1500 spirit unbuffed, Power Torrent and two int trinkets, my priest is similar.

Spirit falls WAY behind in value for a disc priest as you gear up, Int is King after, what, ilvl 350?

Looking at your talents....
Veiled Shadows...with 3400 spirit AND procs???
AA/A spec...Without either SoS or ToT? Doable, but not idea...especially for raid healing and the synergy of IF+PoH+DA.

Dude, I hope you are not basing these theoretical HPS numbers off of your talents and gear....

I get your point about it being the best spec for saving lives, but the act of Saving those loves typically causes our HPS to skyrocket in the process(DA+PW:S). I am not saying Barrier doesn't play a role, it does, but you are down playing the power and extent of our other abilities and spells in the process.
87 Dwarf Priest
9205
01/25/2012 11:41 PMPosted by Oldwolfe
Dude, I hope you are not basing these theoretical HPS numbers off of your talents and gear....


(a) If you are curious how disc compares in max theoretical HPS in dragon soul to other specs, and you are math deficient and can't read existing sources, check out WoL parses. I will give you a hint: disc is nowhere close to top for anything.

(b) Weren't you the person who didn't know shaman's ancestral healing buffs their target's max HP by 10%? Maybe you should post less and listen to people who know better than you more.

(c) Post on your main.

(d) There is a very easy reason for having all that spirit on my gear. I am sure you can figure it out.
Edited by Maharal on 1/26/2012 2:33 AM PST
90 Tauren Shaman
11215
Honestly the role of "Tank Healer" seems to have almost died off nowadays. When I look at the WOL for my 10 man raids, the tanks have roughly equal healing taken from all 3 of us (not every fight, but overall.)

Complementing each other is what makes a healing team strong. Our Hpal sticks his beacon on tanks and does his AOE mostly, I sit on the tanks while keeping HR down and swapping to CH the raid during bursty phases and the Disc priest mostly uses atonement (I need to get on him about that, he's too far behind us and I think he's just being lazy.)

Shaman are great tank healers because GHW hits like a mac truck and ES, Ancestral Healing/Vigor, and riptide ticking are all very good. But we don't have tank savers (NS is it, and while nice it's no Pain Sup.) so the shaman cannot do it alone.
85 Goblin Priest
8060
@ Mistiya I like that you said "Honestly the role of "Tank Healer" seems to have almost died off nowadays." This is very true, when my guild two heals fights its Disc, resto shaman and when we 3 heal we throw in a resto druid, often both or the three of us have the same amount on tanks and raid. Once you get past a certain level of raiding I believe the "assign this person here" aspect kind of dies away as groups learn to work together cohesively.

Priests can pump out amazing single target heals and absorbs, if I was ever placed on a tank only, there is no way that tank could ever die, not unless its an extremely new under geared tank.

Paladins are also very strong Tank heals though as was mentioned before in this thread they seam to shine when two tanks are taking moderate damage between them, they are also really good to bring as a raid healer these days. You will see less and less guilds rely on paladins for tank heals then you used to.

I understand shamans the least of all healers, I know Greater Healing wave is the biggest single target heal in the game but our tank complains that they are low HP healers, which means they rely a lot on their target being lower HP in order to pump out the really big heals, which I'm sure you can see a problem with. All and all I'd rank them as decent tank healers.
90 Night Elf Druid
10550
01/22/2012 01:56 AMPosted by Aisô
The only classes that straight up shouldnt be tank healing (like, shouldnt be focusing tanks) are druids and holy priests.


Disagree. Unless you're talking heroic modes, any resto druid worth their salt can tank heal easily, even without a defensive tank cooldown, due to our excessive throughput.

Since my guild runs 10 mans, I tank heal all the time.
Edited by Sherbear on 1/26/2012 3:15 AM PST
85 Draenei Priest
7125
01/24/2012 10:15 AMPosted by Valamuna
anybody can tank heal except holy priest


It was said earlier in the thread that this is just not true. Holy priests are competant tank healers with the 4p t13 bonus, and mana isn't as as big of an issue as most people think if you've got the spirit gear and ignore the Power Torrent/Lightweave drones.

The think is that Holy is just an excellent raid healing spec, but so are Holy Paladins; what you're seeing, essentially, is leftover "pallies are tank healers" and "priests are raid healers" stigma.
90 Blood Elf Priest
10645
01/22/2012 12:23 AMPosted by Hyperbeam
ooming themselves


01/22/2012 12:23 AMPosted by Hyperbeam
disc priests


wha?


As for the topic: Disc priests can tank heal. Holy paladins can tank heal. Shamans can tank heal. Druids can tank heal. Holy priests can tank heal. Everyone can tank heal! Hell, in this content, I'm pretty sure shadowpriests and ele shamans can tank heal.

Disc is probably strongest for sustained single target. Paladins, as always, are strongest on two targets. Holy priests have the best single target burst, followed closely by shamans. None of those advantages particularly matters, because the tank damage is calibrated to be far and away the least challenging aspect of Cata fights other than Halfus back in t11.
Edited by Kaels on 1/26/2012 8:55 AM PST
90 Blood Elf Priest
10645
01/22/2012 10:10 AMPosted by Oldwolfe
Holy priests, no, they are wet noodle tank healers

Huh? Holy's tank healing has been adequate all expansion, and since they fixed HW: Serenity we've become pretty damn competitive.

There are two reasons you might not want to use a Holy tank healer: (1) that same priest could go Disc and make your tank immortal with zero risk of OOM and a whole bunch of raid healing on the side, and (2) Holy has fantabulous raid heals, so if the priest is good at Holy, you might want to pick a weaker player to assign to the tank.

But if for whatever reason you have a raid comprised of nothing but paladins whose only keybind is Holy Radiance, druids who don't know they have direct heals, and holy priests who refuse to go Disc, your tanks shouldn't die if you assign holy priests to heal them.
85 Draenei Priest
7125
01/26/2012 09:11 AMPosted by Kaels
But if for whatever reason you have a raid comprised of nothing but paladins whose only keybind is Holy Radiance, druids who don't know they have direct heals, and holy priests who refuse to go Disc, your tanks shouldn't die if you assign holy priests to heal them.


Why I tank heal holy. Druids who think Naturalist is a junk talent.
Edited by Bridgetjones on 1/26/2012 9:31 AM PST
90 Goblin Shaman
8435
Could be worse, I got told to do healing assignments one night. Coming from FL where most of the people I raided with didn't do assignments, I was kind of like "Uuuuhhhh". It was a disc/holy priest/me set up. So I had the holy do tank heals, while myself and the disc priest did raid heals. Cooldowns wise is easier to assign: "Ok, I'll do SLT first stack phase, you do barrier next stack phase, etc".

So not used to having a specific job anymore lol.

At least now- reading through this- I have a better idea of what to do in that situation.
Edited by Jujubiju on 1/26/2012 10:23 AM PST
I am often a tank Healer. Our Paladin has acquired an unhealthy fixation on Holy Radiance and an even more worrying addiction to Blue.
1 Worgen Mage
0
01/26/2012 09:11 AMPosted by Kaels
There are two reasons you might not want to use a Holy tank healer: (1) that same priest could go Disc and make your tank immortal with zero risk of OOM and a whole bunch of raid healing on the side, and (2) Holy has fantabulous raid heals, so if the priest is good at Holy, you might want to pick a weaker player to assign to the tank.


I was referring to the ability to switch from tank healing to raid healing and back and forth at will. With the cooldown of Chakra, any bad timing and you either have weaker AOE heals or weaker ST heals.

As a dedicated tank healer, sure, I could see it working, but I honestly wouldn't want to assign a holy priest to tank unless I absolutely had to have everyone else elsewhere.
1 Worgen Mage
0
(a) If you are curious how disc compares in max theoretical HPS in dragon soul to other specs, and you are math deficient and can't read existing sources, check out WoL parses. I will give you a hint: disc is nowhere close to top for anything.


First, WoL only tells half the story, and quite frequently it isn't the important half.

Second, it doesn't matter who is at the top of the WoL parses, because those players are likely having their Guild allow them to buffer their HPS, it happens all of the time.

(b) Weren't you the person who didn't know shaman's ancestral healing buffs their target's max HP by 10%? Maybe you should post less and listen to people who know better than you more.


I don't raid on my shaman, I barely even get him valor capped each week, so I am not surprised that there was something I missed.

01/26/2012 12:05 AMPosted by Maharal
(c) Post on your main.


Why do half the absolutists out there use this? It doesn't help you refute my points, and even if I could(which I cant, guild policy), odds are you would end up eating your words anyway.

(d) There is a very easy reason for having all that spirit on my gear. I am sure you can figure it out.


Yes, that you are healing as disc in holy gear....because that is the only reason I can come up with for a Discipline priest to use That much spirit....

Hell, you even have a socketed spirit/int gem...didn't you know that int/stam is better for disc HPS because of how DA works with Your max HP?
85 Draenei Priest
7125
01/26/2012 11:36 AMPosted by Oldwolfe
Hell, you even have a socketed spirit/int gem...didn't you know that int/stam is better for disc HPS because of how DA works with Your max HP?


Are you talking about spending 5 minutes spamming PoH, drinking, spamming, drinking, spamming, drinking, spamming, drinking, spamming, drinking before a boss pull to cap everyone's DA?

That's what I'm assuming since there's no possible way to get it to max during an actual fight.
1 Worgen Mage
0
01/26/2012 12:02 PMPosted by Bridgetjones
Hell, you even have a socketed spirit/int gem...didn't you know that int/stam is better for disc HPS because of how DA works with Your max HP?


Are you talking about spending 5 minutes spamming PoH, drinking, spamming, drinking, spamming, drinking, spamming, drinking, spamming, drinking before a boss pull to cap everyone's DA?

That's what I'm assuming since there's no possible way to get it to max during an actual fight.


I do it all the time, careful use of cooldowns(IF, AA, PI, trinkets, etc.) and Grace makes it viable, but not before a boss, I haven't done that since H Halfus.

Now are you saying across all 5 groups in a 25 man? No, that would be insane, however assuming you refresh DA constantly, and it only falls off to damage, there will eventually be some people in your raid that will have it maxed out, or very near maxed out, and that is what is important. The higher your DA cap, the more opportunities you have to use DA to its fullest.

My point though was that spirit is hardly optimal for a disco, and gemming for it is barely acceptable, but when you are raging about HPS, then it is a Major no-no.
87 Dwarf Priest
9205

First, WoL only tells half the story, and quite frequently it isn't the important half.

Second, it doesn't matter who is at the top of the WoL parses, because those players are likely having their Guild allow them to buffer their HPS, it happens all of the time.


Top Wol parses shows the best of what each class is capable of, HPS wise. I am sure a fair few of disc priests tried for a top spot with their guild feeding them buffs, etc. They are still nowhere close to other healers.


I don't raid on my shaman, I barely even get him valor capped each week, so I am not surprised that there was something I missed.


The point is, you aren't really very familiar with this game, but feel the need to post wrong opinions anyways.



Why do half the absolutists out there use this? It doesn't help you refute my points, and even if I could(which I cant, guild policy), odds are you would end up eating your words anyway.


You started critiquing my character. Common courtesy dictates you show me yours, so I can do the same. If characters aren't relevant to points, why are you sticking your nose into mine? If characters are relevant, why are you hiding?


Hell, you even have a socketed spirit/int gem...didn't you know that int/stam is better for disc HPS because of how DA works with Your max HP?


Yeah, you need to stop posting about disc. You are as clueless about them as you are about shamans. How far into hard mode dragon soul is your priest?
Edited by Maharal on 1/26/2012 12:23 PM PST
90 Gnome Priest
12440
01/25/2012 01:52 PMPosted by Amaranthea
One of the biggest problems with discipline aoe throughput is that it doesn't scale at all from 10->25 mans (although barrier is still awesome, of course).

Kinda, yeah.

Analogy time. Disc Priests have a bucket and they're using it to bail water out of a ship. On 10-man, that ship is like a tiny little rowboat. On 25-man, the ship is a moderately sized sailboat. Technically the bucket works for both at bailing water out, it's just that relative to the size of the ship, the bucket works much better in the smaller boat. Also you have the ability to stop the flow of water into the ship. Maybe you stuff your shirt into the hole or something.

Other healers, conversely, have like a pump or something. It's like a garden hose in the rowboat and more of a fire hose in the sailboat. The effectiveness of them depends on what you can fit on the ship. The bigger the ship, the bigger the hose it can carry and the more water you can displace per unit time.

I don't think I really had a reason to be here aside from talking about metaphorical boats for a bit.

EDIT: Holy Priests have a bucket and a hose, they're just smaller.
Edited by Skootalloo on 1/26/2012 12:46 PM PST
1 Worgen Mage
0
Top Wol parses shows the best of what each class is capable of, HPS wise. I am sure a fair few of disc priests tried for a top spot with their guild feeding them buffs, etc. They are still nowhere close to other healers.


Feeding them buffs is one part of it, but not a seriously important one, that is why I said WoL only tells have the story, and not the important half. The important half is coodlowns such a Barrier, but also how other healers are doing their healing And how the strategy the group is using.

Back about 7 months ago my guild wanted to see how high HPS each of us healers could do, everyone but the healer in question would slack off while the healer in question would go nuts and be fed buffs. That healer would be doing about 70% of the healing done, and have Really high HPS as a result. This is the special circumstance I was speaking too.

01/26/2012 12:18 PMPosted by Maharal
The point is, you aren't really very familiar with this game, but feel the need to post wrong opinions anyways.


Because I get one a spec about a class I barely play, and have only one shaman(enh) in my raid, wrong, you conclude I don't know that much about this game....heh, heh...buddy, I've forgotten more about healing in this game than you probably could understand....I've been playing a healer for 6 years, and have the experience to back it up.

You started critiquing my character. Common courtesy dictates you show me yours, so I can do the same. If characters aren't relevant to points, why are you sticking your nose into mine? If characters are relevant, why are you hiding?


Actually I critiqued your character by comparing you to Blew, a Disco I know to be well progressed and skilled. My character need to enter the equation after comparing you to another disco. And frankly, I don't want to run afoul of my GM again, so I fund a way around it.

Again, this doesn't help you refute my points in the slightest.

Yeah, you need to stop posting about disc. You are as clueless about them as you are about shamans. How far into hard mode dragon soul is your priest?


Currently working on H Spine for 10 man, on Alt in 25 man(we alternate, this week is 10s, next week is 25s, easier on everyone's schedules). Our problems thus far is DPS, not healing.

As to me being clueless, tell me, what possible advantage is there in having 3400 spirit AND procs as disc? Don't you know Rapture outstrips spirit's regen by a mile and scales off Intellect?

I might make a suggestion to you, were I trying to be friendly, that you think about your playstyle when you go disc, and how it is effected by your gear.
1 Human Warrior
0

I think these cold meds are affecting me. xD


Keep taking them, that last part was quite entertaining =)
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