Who are tank healers?

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85 Draenei Priest
7125
01/26/2012 12:13 PMPosted by Oldwolfe
I haven't done that since H Halfus.


Worked like freakin' magic on Majordomo.

Watching recount spike to almost 1M hps after the first scythe was super fun.
1 Worgen Mage
0
01/26/2012 01:23 PMPosted by Bridgetjones
I haven't done that since H Halfus.


Worked like freakin' magic on Majordomo.

Watching recount spike to almost 1M hps after the first scythe was super fun.


We tried it on Major, but me and my counter part never really liked it, so we just pre-PW:S'd and did a few PoH's then healed as normal.
87 Dwarf Priest
11245

Feeding them buffs is one part of it, but not a seriously important one, that is why I said WoL only tells have the story, and not the important half. The important half is coodlowns such a Barrier, but also how other healers are doing their healing And how the strategy the group is using.

Back about 7 months ago my guild wanted to see how high HPS each of us healers could do, everyone but the healer in question would slack off while the healer in question would go nuts and be fed buffs. That healer would be doing about 70% of the healing done, and have Really high HPS as a result. This is the special circumstance I was speaking too.


That's right. And if you let a paladin, say, heal most damage vs a disc, the paladin will do a lot more healing. This is simply because paladin is mathematically capable of a lot more healing due to the ridiculousness of holy radiance on stacked fights. What I find amusing is you look at specifics (e.g. my gear) while ignore the mountain of evidence (throughput optimized WoL parses with disc nowhere in sight). All the setups that let a particular healer maximize hps favor all classes equally. Yet why is there no disc dominating WoL?


Because I get one a spec about a class I barely play, and have only one shaman(enh) in my raid, wrong, you conclude I don't know that much about this game....heh, heh...buddy, I've forgotten more about healing in this game than you probably could understand....I've been playing a healer for 6 years, and have the experience to back it up.


I find it amusing that you claim to be working on H spine while being blissfully unaware of a crucial feature of healing shamans that make them amazing for that fight.


Actually I critiqued your character by comparing you to Blew, a Disco I know to be well progressed and skilled. My character need to enter the equation after comparing you to another disco. And frankly, I don't want to run afoul of my GM again, so I fund a way around it.

Again, this doesn't help you refute my points in the slightest.


Look, regardless of how much you optimize disc for throughput, disc is going to lag behind every other healer, all other things (gear/skill) being equal. This is reality backed by data. I am not sure why this bothers you so much (I certainly don't think disc is a bad spec, it's quite useful -- just not for HPS), and frankly I don't care. There is nothing for me to refute: the burden of proof is on you. If you think disc can beat a paladin put money where you mouth is and post a ranking log.


As to me being clueless, tell me, what possible advantage is there in having 3400 spirit AND procs as disc? Don't you know Rapture outstrips spirit's regen by a mile and scales off Intellect?

I might make a suggestion to you, were I trying to be friendly, that you think about your playstyle when you go disc, and how it is effected by your gear.


Actually I have a question for you: in how many fights in H DS does the divine aegis cap actually come into play?
Edited by Maharal on 1/26/2012 2:51 PM PST
85 Draenei Shaman
10680
Everyone can tank heal, but Disc>Paladin>Everyone else is usually the order. Although having a paladin tank heal in 25m ds is foolish cause of HR. /endthread
100 Blood Elf Priest
12770
01/26/2012 11:29 AMPosted by Oldwolfe
There are two reasons you might not want to use a Holy tank healer: (1) that same priest could go Disc and make your tank immortal with zero risk of OOM and a whole bunch of raid healing on the side, and (2) Holy has fantabulous raid heals, so if the priest is good at Holy, you might want to pick a weaker player to assign to the tank.


I was referring to the ability to switch from tank healing to raid healing and back and forth at will. With the cooldown of Chakra, any bad timing and you either have weaker AOE heals or weaker ST heals.

As a dedicated tank healer, sure, I could see it working, but I honestly wouldn't want to assign a holy priest to tank unless I absolutely had to have everyone else elsewhere.

Yeah, the problem with using a Holy tank healer is that tank healing is pretty much all you're going to get.

The tank healing itself is fine, but at the moment I don't think there's a single fight in the game that requires the attention of a whole healer on the tank at all times, especially with everyone else's passive/semipassive tank healing that they'd be doing regardless of assignment.
85 Draenei Priest
7125
01/26/2012 03:23 PMPosted by Kaels
The tank healing itself is fine, but at the moment I don't think there's a single fight in the game that requires the attention of a whole healer on the tank at all times, especially with everyone else's passive/semipassive tank healing that they'd be doing regardless of assignment.


I just assign myself to the melee cluster so I can PoH/CoH and still hit the tank. On fights like Yorsaj with high tank damage, I still stay in Sanctuary and just spam greater heal.
1 Worgen Mage
0
That's right. And if you let a paladin, say, heal most damage vs a disc, the paladin will do a lot more healing. This is simply because paladin is mathematically capable of a lot more healing due to the ridiculousness of holy radiance on stacked fights. What I find amusing is you look at specifics (e.g. my gear) while ignore the mountain of evidence (throughput optimized WoL parses with disc nowhere in sight). All the setups that let a particular healer maximize hps favor all classes equally. Yet why is there no disc dominating WoL?


Your misunderstanding what I was talking about concerning your gear; you were complaining about not having the needed HPS while in disc, making you go holy, on certain fights...and frankly, if you were having problems it has Nothing to do with theoretical disc HPS, and has everything to do with your gear: You are geared for Holy...NOT disc.

Further, I like how you parrot on about theoretical max HPS but when it really boils down to it, even in optimal circumstances for high HPS, any healer can do the job but disc is significantly more complicated to asses because HPS isn't, and has never BEEN, a viable tool to measure a disc priest with, even with logs adding in absorbs, it still isn't an accurate assessment of their healing.

01/26/2012 02:50 PMPosted by Maharal
I find it amusing that you claim to be working on H spine while being blissfully unaware of a crucial feature of healing shamans that make them amazing for that fight.


We don't use a shaman healer at all in any of our raids, even our 25's(2 discos, 2 druids 1 H pally), so the ability doesn't even factor in for us.

Further, since you go on and on about how this one mistake seems to make me terrible....you really ought to consider that not everyone follows the templates that guilds such as Paragon use, and that not all healing strategies are the same.

Look, regardless of how much you optimize disc for throughput, disc is going to lag behind every other healer, all other things (gear/skill) being equal. This is reality backed by data. I am not sure why this bothers you so much (I certainly don't think disc is a bad spec, it's quite useful -- just not for HPS), and frankly I don't care. There is nothing for me to refute: the burden of proof is on you. If you think disc can beat a paladin put money where you mouth is and post a ranking log.


I already explained this to you, and so did Blew: WoL is NOT an accurate assessment of a disc priests ability to heal, and especially not an accurate assessment of their HPS potential due to how DA and PW:S work. Not including cooldowns, those two abilities are exceedingly hard to measure when simply looking at a log.

01/26/2012 02:50 PMPosted by Maharal
Actually I have a question for you: in how many fights in H DS does the divine aegis cap actually come into play?


Let me check my recount....

This evenings raid, I did it a total of 639 times. In our last encounter(Spine), I did it 27 times. Honestly, it is NOT that hard to do. At 172k health(raid buffed) that makes DA max out at 69k. With AA not up, my non crit PoH DA's are ~12k, crits are ~24k(and at 20% crit, I get one crit heal per PoH), with AA(at 5 evan stacks) up that are 15k and 30k respectively. That is accounting for Grace x3 on, usually, 3+ targets, at at least Grace x1 on everyone else. Throw in that I am specced into ToT and I get a IF every ~25 seconds and its accompanying extra crit.

Worst case scenario, it will take 6 PoH's to get it to max, but given that of those PoH's, at least one person per PoH is likely to get a crit, and that IF is off cooldown so often....Honestly, it is NOT that hard if you time everything properly, which you can do if you know two things:
One: Your raids strategy and DPS output though and though and
Two: You can manage your personal cooldowns properly to accomplish the goal.

Disc has an Insanely high skill cap, and assuming you strive to reach it constantly, HPS will not be important.
90 Troll Priest
12105
01/22/2012 12:09 AMPosted by Valamuna
disc priest as a tank heal is a long running joke


Outdated info is funny.
100 Blood Elf Priest
12770
01/26/2012 07:11 PMPosted by Oldwolfe
With AA not up, my non crit PoH DA's are ~12k,

...um, mine are 3k. WTF?
90 Gnome Priest
11895
01/26/2012 08:20 PMPosted by Kaels
With AA not up, my non crit PoH DA's are ~12k,

...um, mine are 3k. WTF?

I think he means PoH + DA combined.
100 Blood Elf Priest
12770
01/26/2012 08:36 PMPosted by Skootalloo

...um, mine are 3k. WTF?

I think he means PoH + DA combined.

No, he's using it to argue that he can hit the DA cap easily:

01/26/2012 07:11 PMPosted by Oldwolfe
Worst case scenario, it will take 6 PoH's to get it to max,

But by my numbers, it takes closer to 20.
90 Blood Elf Paladin
5915

I think he means PoH + DA combined.

No, he's using it to argue that he can hit the DA cap easily:

01/26/2012 07:11 PMPosted by Oldwolfe
Worst case scenario, it will take 6 PoH's to get it to max,

But by my numbers, it takes closer to 20.

I've been tempted to try this with a high mastery build and Holy Radiance. Same basic concept, I take it?
100 Blood Elf Priest
12770

No, he's using it to argue that he can hit the DA cap easily:


But by my numbers, it takes closer to 20.

I've been tempted to try this with a high mastery build and Holy Radiance. Same basic concept, I take it?

Yes, but you don't even have a chance of hitting it during a fight. You could do it before the fight, of course, but it seems silly.
85 Blood Elf Priest
8370
I find it hard to believe you're consistently capping DA on heroic Spine beyond the first plate. For the other heroics, I don't see much opportunity to cap it due to pulsing/constant damage other than maybe Yor'sahj or even Hagara to some extent.
85 Gnome Priest
6275
A/AA spec for raiding is awful and the spec should never be mentioned ever in a post about raiding. as far as the origin of this thread and to some comments. Disc Priests are the best healers in game. They can tank heal like no other and never go even below 80% mana if they are 'TANK healing'. They can raid heal better than shamans and druids and paladins due to PoH especially if their mastery is high enough. Since Firelands began I cannot remember a time when another healer beat me on the healing meter. Disc can imo raid heal better than holy priests as well. i find that holy goes through mana much faster than disc. in BC the retards were hunters but in cata ive noticed a lot of uneducated players of their class are priests. disc, shadow, or holy, ive seen countless numbers of clueless priests walking around without skill giving other priests, ESPECIALLY DISC bad names and its upsetting
1 Worgen Mage
0
01/26/2012 08:20 PMPosted by Kaels
With AA not up, my non crit PoH DA's are ~12k,

...um, mine are 3k. WTF?


Mastery/crit stacking. 20 Mastery, 32% crit.

See, here's how it works:
PoH: 3087-3261 (base, no talents, no SP)
Twin Disciplines(+6% healing) makes that: 3272-3456
Spell Power coefficient of 52.6%.
My Intellect(buffed with brilliance/MotW/flask/food/trinket/inner fire) is: 13839.
My Average healing from PoH: 11049-11233(No grace)
With Grace(x3): 13700-13928
My Divine Aegis from the Above number is(with 20 mastery, 45% DA): 6216 DA(already double yours).
A crit moves that up to 12k.(So, apparently, going back through my logs, I misread and posted the average overall, not the non-crit average, my bad, but still my max DA proc WAS over 24k, still figuring out how that happened).

AA(5 stacks) moves that number to: 7148 norm, 14k+ crit.

Factor in any number of healing boots, from encounter mechanics to buffs and personal cooldowns, and those numbers can get Much higher.

Note, I didn't take into account PT proc, which is at most, unreliable with this, but still a factor and its average SP boost is factored into my SP amount.

It is a simple matter of building DA up, all you need to do is know where to keep grace stacked up, where the raiders in questions will be, and how the damage is going out. Once you have all of the factors and have planned accordingly, then it is a simply matter of following through with your plan and seeing the result.

Any questions?
1 Worgen Mage
0
A/AA spec for raiding is awful and the spec should never be mentioned ever in a post about raiding. as far as the origin of this thread and to some comments.


I disagree, Vehemently, AA/A disc is an amazingly powerful spec when used properly.

Do you spam smite/HF and use next to nothing else? No, but you use them as the encounter allows or you use HF every cooldown and pop AA at either when its off cooldown or when you reach 5 evangelism stacks.

Further, the healing boost of AA is near unparalleled at such a short cooldown, and synergies with disc's healing abilities quite well.

Hell, when I go holy(when I get badgered to anyway) I get AA even though I cant get Atonement, simply because it is such a simple ability to use either on cooldown(with HF every 10 seconds) or on call for truly Massive healing potential.

Honestly, among all 5 healing trees, there is virtually no equal talent/spell.
100 Night Elf Priest
13930
Hopping in after lurking for a while.

01/26/2012 02:50 PMPosted by Maharal
Yet why is there no disc dominating WoL?


It's difficult to dominate when there's one absurdly powerful healer in this expansion (namely because said healer is the dominating force on the majority of fights, primarily because the majority of fights are designed in a way that favors the healing approach taken by said healer). That said, looking at heroic parses:

10

Morchok: 26/100 are Disc. (3/10)
Zonozz: 11/100 are Disc. (3/10)
Yorsahj: 0/100 (Which I find interesting, considering Disc's ability to stack DA before critical combinations.)
Hagara: 4/100
Ultraxion: 0/100 (Completely unsurprising, as this is the fight where Paladins shine.)
Warmaster: 26/100 (2/10; 8/20)
Spine: 1/100 (Unsurprising, as the fight design doesn't favor Discipline's healing style)
Madness: 28/100

25

Morchok: 3/100
Zonozz: 3/100
Yorsahj: 0/100
Hagara: 0/100
Ultraxion: 0/100
Warmaster: 6/100
Spine: 0/100
Madness: 1/100

Disc is has a strong presence in 10-man rankings, and a weak one in 25-mans. However, Disc also works in a way that no other healer duplicates: mitigation. If you tack on the damage reduction from PW:Barrier and Pain Supression (primarily the former), Discipline comes very close--and may even surpass the healing done by other healers.

Nevermind the utility brought by Power Infusion, the added dps from AA/A (if taken), and the ability to heavily inflate a target's effective HP.

If we were healing in a vacuum and had all our ducks in a row aiming for the highest HPS, sure, Disc would lose out. But we don't heal in a vacuum. Mitigation matters. Utility matters. Extra dps can matter (it brought my guild their first H Yorsahj kill, and has helped numerous guilds get their first H Ult kill).


Of course, none of this is actually relevant to the topic of the thread, as tank healing has become secondary to raid healing in this patch. There are a few fights/phases in fights where it matters, but that isn't going to be reflected in top parses because every fight has far more raid damage than tank damage and we have no fight like Baleroc.

--

01/26/2012 11:18 PMPosted by Squirtheels
A/AA spec for raiding is awful and the spec should never be mentioned ever in a post about raiding.


You apparently loathe AA/A spec. I can only conclude that you're either closed-minded and are unable to see/understand its benefits, or that you've tried it and were bad at it and decided that it must be awful.

Either way, you're wrong. There are many top/progressive priests running AA/A successfully in HDS.

---

On topic:

Discipline is an efficient and powerful tank healer. Paladins and Shamans are also excellent tank healers. Behind the three leaders we have Druids and Holy Priests.

All of them can get the job done. It simply comes down to who's better at what, what classes you have available (particularly relevant at the 10m level), and what best fits the needs of the situation.
100 Blood Elf Priest
12770


...um, mine are 3k. WTF?


Mastery/crit stacking. 20 Mastery, 32% crit.

See, here's how it works:
PoH: 3087-3261 (base, no talents, no SP)
Twin Disciplines(+6% healing) makes that: 3272-3456
Spell Power coefficient of 52.6%.
My Intellect(buffed with brilliance/MotW/flask/food/trinket/inner fire) is: 13839.
My Average healing from PoH: 11049-11233(No grace)
With Grace(x3): 13700-13928
My Divine Aegis from the Above number is(with 20 mastery, 45% DA): 6216 DA(already double yours).
A crit moves that up to 12k.(So, apparently, going back through my logs, I misread and posted the average overall, not the non-crit average, my bad, but still my max DA proc WAS over 24k, still figuring out how that happened).

AA(5 stacks) moves that number to: 7148 norm, 14k+ crit.

Factor in any number of healing boots, from encounter mechanics to buffs and personal cooldowns, and those numbers can get Much higher.

Note, I didn't take into account PT proc, which is at most, unreliable with this, but still a factor and its average SP boost is factored into my SP amount.

It is a simple matter of building DA up, all you need to do is know where to keep grace stacked up, where the raiders in questions will be, and how the damage is going out. Once you have all of the factors and have planned accordingly, then it is a simply matter of following through with your plan and seeing the result.

Any questions?


OK. I'll believe 6k non-crit with better gear, raid buffs, and some heavy mastery. I wasn't going to believe 12. My average overall is usually just under 12, and that's boosted considerably by DA's quadruple crits.

(A 6k non-crit DA translates to a 24k crit DA, btw, so there's nothing odd about that, except maybe that you should have crit at some point with AA up and seen a 28k+ one).
Edited by Kaels on 1/27/2012 2:48 AM PST
85 Human Paladin
9085
I'm actually still trying to figure out if he's trolling or not. A priest posting about his amazing divine aegis stacking during heroic spine would probably know how divine aegis worked.
Edited by Amaranthea on 1/27/2012 3:02 AM PST
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