Please bring back whoever designed Ulduar

90 Human Paladin
6430
What a coincidence! We happened to talk about raid design and results with Ghostcrawler and Mumper yesterday, and everyone looked back fondly on Ulduar, among others.

Yes, the same designers and artists who worked on Ulduar are still working on raids.

Here's the thing -- Ulduar is an example of a raid where lots of players got to enjoy the first few bosses, and very few players ever saw the last few. Yogg Saron and Algalon were among the least-killed bosses ever, and not because they were exceedingly difficult. Rather, clearing the dungeon all the way to Yogg took up a big chunk of a raiding week (and you only had an hour to kill Algalon), and the ability to extend raid lockouts came later in 3.2.0 (but extending raid lockouts means getting less loot overall). Raid Finder partially resolves the length-of-raid problem, so we can consider designing longer raids, but that's not always an easy call. Long raids mean longer development time, and while some players might be willing to wait, we understand why others might get impatient.

Of course, having multiple raids in a tier (like the combination of Bastion of Twilight and Blackwing Descent) has the advantage of giving players different environments to play in while potentially making scheduling and logistics easier.

Pushing a big red button for Mimiron was very cool, and again is fondly remembered. We have created something like 40 raid bosses since the creation of those encounters however, and we cant help but think that it would start to feel really gimmicky and forced if every raid encounter had its difficulty set by pushing a button, (or not killing adds, or changing the order you kill the bosses, or the other mechanics we used in Ulduar). We think Mimiron would feel less special if there were six more bosses in the game with big red buttons, and we’re just not sure the design space is there to have a near infinite variety of means by which players launch a heroic mode in game.

Nonetheless, because there are so many requests for those style mechanics, we are considering doing a few bosses with optional modes (in the same way Mimiron, Freya or Sartharion had them) in Mists of Pandaria.


The thing is, the op mentioned nothing about raid length. Just about interest and quality of the fights. Just more interesting fight mechanics with more than one possible outcome.


And hello, thing is, with quality and interest aka MORE mechanics, the fights are lengthened. They aren't so cut to the the chase, straightfoward.
90 Undead Rogue
9775
01/26/2012 12:28 PMPosted by Syrella
We waited 8 months for Firelands to come out with 7 bosses but we only waited 5 for Ulduar to come out with 14. I'm not sure how more raid bosses means longer wait time.


Indeed.
100 Night Elf Warrior
20340

Here's the thing -- Ulduar is an example of a raid where lots of players got to enjoy the first few bosses, and very few players ever saw the last few. Yogg Saron and Algalon were among the least-killed bosses ever, and not because they were exceedingly difficult. Rather, clearing the dungeon all the way to Yogg took up a big chunk of a raiding week (and you only had an hour to kill Algalon), and the ability to extend raid lockouts came later in 3.2.0 (but extending raid lockouts means getting less loot overall)..


There was also the factor of the duration for which Ulduar was current...and as far as typical raiders, Algalon should be excluded by the current raid model.

My idea for solving it goes something like this:

Similar to the achievements, most (not all, maybe even not most) provide extra loot when killed in a certain manner.

For example Rhyolith (normal mode) may drop an extra 384 item if he never turns left during the encounter.

Now this doesn't have to be done for every boss, and actually doing so may wear out the idea. The idea is for things similar to Heartbreaker, where you can take an action to significantly increase the fight's difficulty.
85 Blood Elf Hunter
2340
I hope

What a coincidence! We happened to talk about raid design and results with Ghostcrawler and Mumper yesterday, and everyone looked back fondly on Ulduar, among others.

Yes, the same designers and artists who worked on Ulduar are still working on raids.

Here's the thing -- Ulduar is an example of a raid where lots of players got to enjoy the first few bosses, and very few players ever saw the last few. Yogg Saron and Algalon were among the least-killed bosses ever, and not because they were exceedingly difficult. Rather, clearing the dungeon all the way to Yogg took up a big chunk of a raiding week (and you only had an hour to kill Algalon), and the ability to extend raid lockouts came later in 3.2.0 (but extending raid lockouts means getting less loot overall). Raid Finder partially resolves the length-of-raid problem, so we can consider designing longer raids, but that's not always an easy call. Long raids mean longer development time, and while some players might be willing to wait, we understand why others might get impatient.

Of course, having multiple raids in a tier (like the combination of Bastion of Twilight and Blackwing Descent) has the advantage of giving players different environments to play in while potentially making scheduling and logistics easier.

Pushing a big red button for Mimiron was very cool, and again is fondly remembered. We have created something like 40 raid bosses since the creation of those encounters however, and we cant help but think that it would start to feel really gimmicky and forced if every raid encounter had its difficulty set by pushing a button, (or not killing adds, or changing the order you kill the bosses, or the other mechanics we used in Ulduar). We think Mimiron would feel less special if there were six more bosses in the game with big red buttons, and we’re just not sure the design space is there to have a near infinite variety of means by which players launch a heroic mode in game.

Nonetheless, because there are so many requests for those style mechanics, we are considering doing a few bosses with optional modes (in the same way Mimiron, Freya or Sartharion had them) in Mists of Pandaria.


I hope Karazhan was mentioned to??? I LOVED that place as much as I loved Ulduar....
85 Draenei Death Knight
10475
01/26/2012 12:38 PMPosted by Seneselina
Or will we be continued to be insulted with comments such as the one I quoted above?
Maybe when you phrase your questions differently they might be more inclined to give you a response.
100 Blood Elf Mage
15400
Drop a great raid like Ulduar as the first raid next xpac and you will have players raiding right up to the next raid tier.

Drop a cruddy raid like TOC next xpac and expect raiders to pack up and leave.

Yes Ulduar took a while, but then again it was worth it. because we were happily raiding right up till the next tier. I doubt anyone would complain about the length between tiers when they are enjoying the current tier.
85 Draenei Shaman
7635
What a coincidence! We happened to talk about raid design and results with Ghostcrawler and Mumper yesterday...

Hey! I wanted to thank you so much for letting us in on this kind of information. I know I don't speak for everyone, but hearing this does help me believe that there is a pipeline of communication from the forums (and therefore from us players) back to the Devs. I don't mind not having our ideas taken up and implemented, but I really, really mind feeling like I'm not heard.

So again, thanks!
90 Troll Mage
18195
Normal 10-man -> Flip a switch -> Heroic 10-man

Normal 25-man -> Flip a switch -> Heroic 25-man

There has nothing been quite like the, "OMG!" moment when you pushed that big red button in Mim's room.


It's funny that most people think of Mimiron as one of the best hard modes and think that the button was a great idea while also bashing how heroics work now. You still hit a button to make the fight harder. If you guys really want I'm sure Blizzard could put a large shiny red button before every boss to start the encounter.
85 Goblin Shaman
7150
01/26/2012 01:08 PMPosted by Trogdoroth
Ulduar is hyped up to be a lot more than it was. A lot of people I talk to say how awesome it was but they never cleared it till long after it was current content.

<- Starting working on Ulduar when it was first released and the reason why many of us like Ulduar is because we DID do it when it was relevant content which is why the raids that followed have felt flat.

~Arianenna
90 Blood Elf Priest
12170
Normal 10-man -> Flip a switch -> Heroic 10-man

Normal 25-man -> Flip a switch -> Heroic 25-man

There has nothing been quite like the, "OMG!" moment when you pushed that big red button in Mim's room.


It's funny that most people think of Mimiron as one of the best hard modes and think that the button was a great idea while also bashing how heroics work now. You still hit a button to make the fight harder. If you guys really want I'm sure Blizzard could put a large shiny red button before every boss to start the encounter.

Because that is the only example that I wrote? Because that is how you started Freya HM? Because there weren't various levels of Freya HM? Because that is how you did Thorim HM? Because that is how we did Vezax HM? I can go on and on. The Mim red button is just one example out of many in Ulduar.
85 Gnome Mage
8080
01/26/2012 01:14 PMPosted by Pyrõstorm
I doubt anyone would complain about the length between tiers when they are enjoying the current tier.


So true.
90 Blood Elf Paladin
13990
Kaivax, one of the most interesting idea of Ulduar was the loot system.. hard mode was dropping extra loot was a more interesting than dropping heroic version of the regular gear imo. Unique gear is more interesting than upgraded version of the loot you already have.. might as well only drop Crystalized Firestone.

Not counting the 4 levels of difficulty of some encounters, which was very fun especially for Obsidium Sanctum and Freya.

90 Blood Elf Priest
12170
01/26/2012 01:19 PMPosted by Ashva

<- Starting working on Ulduar when it was first released and the reason why many of us like Ulduar is because we DID do it when it was relevant content which is why the raids that followed have felt flat.

~Arianenna


Ok?

TOC had a much shorter line that followed Ulduar. Unlike other raiding tiers. Not everyone completed partly due to that.

So we should have short mindless raids so everyone can clear them in an hour or less and gear up all of their alts? If that is the case, they should release a Kara or Ulduar like raid and make the LFR in three or four chunks and that way the ADD generation can get their fix while letting others who don't mind spending time working on bosses to do so.
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