Please bring back whoever designed Ulduar

90 Blood Elf Priest
12170
01/26/2012 04:34 PMPosted by Preka
have some 3day lockout raids you can clear in a short night for side grades.

Yay for ZA ^_^
90 Draenei Shaman
15000
Raid Finder partially resolves the length-of-raid problem, so we can consider designing longer raids, but that's not always an easy call. Long raids mean longer development time, and while some players might be willing to wait, we understand why others might get impatient.

Of course, having multiple raids in a tier (like the combination of Bastion of Twilight and Blackwing Descent) has the advantage of giving players different environments to play in while potentially making scheduling and logistics easier.


I can't believe you have the audacity to talk about multiple raid tiers allowing us to have more content. Why? Because we just had two tiers back to back of single-raid, single-digit bosses DESPITE being promised the opposite.

Believe me, if you keep shipping raids like ToC and Dragon Soul, you won't have to worry about your customers getting impatient. We're just going to quit and find something else to spend our money and time on.
Edited by Jooki on 1/26/2012 4:41 PM PST
100 Gnome Mage
9885
Could we not go back to this model, with the ICC/DS style buff/nerf. It would help solve the lack of clearing, one would think.

clearing the dungeon all the way to Yogg took up a big chunk of a raiding week (and you only had an hour to kill Algalon), and the ability to extend raid lockouts came later in 3.2.0 (but extending raid lockouts means getting less loot overall).


Could you guys not add a "wing" system, like in ICC, so if people wanted to jump to clear new bosses without extending a lock out, or farming cleared bosses later in the week. They could do a different wing.

From what i see on forums and what i hear from actual players. We want one epic raid vs 3 or 4 mediocre raids. It would be easier for you guys to design one epic raid, as opposed to recycling models and making horrid styled weapons for 4 "unique" raids. I liked the 1 boss raids as filler raids too. So instead of 3 raids with 3-4 bosses, one epic Ulduar type raid, and throw in some OS type 1 boss loot pinatas. You can even recycle the loot pinatas. :)

All of the point in the blue post are easily negated. As it seems like a form response, as opposed to an actual response. So instead of Activision's talking points, how bout you actually come out and say, "We can't go back to this model, we want everyone to clear content so they keep subscribing." :) You know instead of listening to what the players actually want, that will keep long term subscriptions as opposed to a impulse buy.


Couldn't have said it better myself.
90 Blood Elf Priest
12170
Also, this needs to be linked again because it is awesome ^_^

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tCG2Q8iQzEE

Ulduar - The Movie
90 Orc Hunter
9465
I tihnk a lot of people in this thread have pointed out just how disconnected the current design paradigm is from the players.
100 Orc Shaman
12845
Best raid ever. If you wanna constantly recycle content and ideas. This is your gem. 1 epic raid with hard mode options. This game hasn't been as fun since your pushing fast content crap.
Edited by Malicious on 1/26/2012 5:20 PM PST
90 Worgen Warlock
17325
Having smaller raids is honestly fine. Tier 11 was an excellent example of how small raids works - there just needs to be more raid zones if that is the case.

Firelands was a good raid if there was another one released alongside it, and/or if it didn't completely replace tier 11. Dragon Soul is, frankly, a disgrace, a disgusting mess of horribly implemented ideas, and not what I've come to expect from Blizzard Entertainment for game quality. Never ever ever ever do a raid like that again, even if it has 30 bosses or is released alongside two of the best raids ever like Ulduar and Black Temple.

If you want people to be able to get through to the end of a raid zone in a single week, tier 11 is the way to go. Raid finder also gives you the opportunity to see all of the content easily.

Tier 12 was too short, even if Firelands wasn't. Tier 13 is too short, and overall horrid quality. If you keep half assing it like these last two tiers, you WILL be losing many customers.
90 Draenei Shaman
15000
01/26/2012 03:41 PMPosted by Virtutis
Yogg Saron and Algalon were among the least-killed bosses ever, and not because they were exceedingly difficult. Rather, clearing the dungeon all the way to Yogg took up a big chunk of a raiding week (and you only had an hour to kill Algalon), and the ability to extend raid lockouts came later in 3.2.0 (but extending raid lockouts means getting less loot overall). Raid Finder partially resolves the length-of-raid problem, so we can consider designing longer raids, but that's not always an easy call. Long raids mean longer development time, and while some players might be willing to wait, we understand why others might get impatient.


There are some very odd statements here and also somewhat disingenuous.

For starters, Algalon was designed to be a heroic only boss and it was behind a wall of heroic bosses just to get to him. The targeted audience for this boss was the progression guilds that were working towards or clearing heroics - these are the very same guilds that never had a problem with the instance being "too large" or taking "too long" - rather these are the very guilds that had the time to do so.

To design him that way and then afterwards proclaim that the main reason so many didn't see him was.... the instance was too large... is at the very least a very silly statement. The modern equivalent of this boss is Sinestra and even now - 2 tiers later - only 2% of guilds have killed it. Please do not tell me in MoP the reson for not having such a boss will again be "because it took too long to clear BoT so not many people saw Sinestra...".

Next, I am not sure if you actually raided during Ulduar or not but Yogg Saron was a huge increase in difficulty from the previous bosses. While some higher end guilds may not have had the same issues, for the vast majority of casual guilds, dealing with clouds - particularly before they announced who they hit - was enough to leave with you no hair.

Yogg Saron, normal 25 man (before taking any keepers away) has the distinct pleasure of being almost tied to Lich King heroic for the number of failed attempts to kill boss. The only other boss that was in that ballpark was Sartharion 3D so to say once again that that Yogg Saron was not difficult and once again it was because the instance was too large makes it feel like you never actually raided this tier when it was current at all.

Long raids mean longer development time, and while some players might be willing to wait, we understand why others might get impatient.


Ulduar had the longest longevity of every raid in WotLK and Cataclysm. One of the biggest problems with Ulduar was that you released ToC too soon.

Ulduar was released on 14 April 2009 and ToC on 4 August 2009 which only left 4 months of progression in there and the vast majority of raiding guilds were still working on Ulduar bosses - we even went back in there for several montsh after ToC was released finishing bosses, and a large reason for that was because the fights were so much better and more fun and were still considered progression.

This instance was designed to take time to clear which gave it a long life span. If you designed raids like this you don't need to bring out content faster. The only reason you have to bring out content so much faster now is because you shot yourselves in the foot and designed the content to be cleared faster.

I will never understand the mentality behind designing content that can be gobbled up in a few weeks then complaining about us being bored and having nothing to do - and then using this as a justification for reducing the content further. It is no wonder people are starting to get ansy for new stuff in shorter time periods - you designed it that way.

Pushing a big red button for Mimiron was very cool, and again is fondly remembered. We have created something like 40 raid bosses since the creation of those encounters however, and we cant help but think that it would start to feel really gimmicky and forced if every raid encounter had its difficulty set by pushing a button, (or not killing adds, or changing the order you kill the bosses, or the other mechanics we used in Ulduar). We think Mimiron would feel less special if there were six more bosses in the game with big red buttons, and we’re just not sure the design space is there to have a near infinite variety of means by which players launch a heroic mode in game.


You know I hold the example of Ulduar in one hand and the example of having a "toggle" for heroic mode in the other and sorry but this makes no sense whatsoever.

I can understand the point of view that it is hard to make consistently new and unique ways of engaging heroics - but what the bloody hell do you think we are doing now? We HAVE a big red button for every single boss mode - the only difference is the mouse click is on your UI instead of on the wall. You talk about the mechanics in Ulduar becoming gimmicky after a time and yet the method you currently have in place is - and this is a personal opinion here so others will disagree - the stupidest design for implementing heroic modes since you first started experimenting with them.

There is no story behind them, no reason for there to be a heroic, no flow on with Raid design. I can't help visualising the Boss in front of us going "Come on, toggle that litte button and I will show you what I have under this kilt...!".

Long story short, if you design instances like Ulduar that are made to last, and have engaging switches between heroics and normals then not only do you have more time to create content and people are not in such a rush to move on, but you have much more engaging encounters that people talk about 2 years later. From a raider point of view I would have thought this is a win/win - you get more slack on the reigns to design better and more well thought out content.

But please, do not try to tell us that the reason you don't want to do this is because it takes too long to design and we want more content more quickly when the very reason we need that content more quickly is because you intentionally designed it that way.


^ QFT.
90 Undead Rogue
14115
Raid Finder partially resolves the length-of-raid problem, so we can consider designing longer raids


Good to know you guys are actually considering it. Huge raids like AQ40 Naxx and Ulduar (to name a few) gave a sense of discovery as you're progressing through this giant epic raid. With a lot of the Cataclysm raids they just feel like a collage of boring 5 mans. The "click this portal" or "click this drake" and you're instantly brought to a given point in a raid dungeon gets very boring fast.
100 Gnome Mage
9885
01/26/2012 04:47 PMPosted by Vaelkyri
I tihnk a lot of people in this thread have pointed out just how disconnected the current design paradigm is from the players.


Its not that they're disconnected...its that patient, long-term customers who desire quality content rather than loot vending machines are no longer their target audience.
90 Orc Hunter
9465
01/26/2012 04:56 PMPosted by Jooki


There are some very odd statements here and also somewhat disingenuous.

For starters, Algalon was designed to be a heroic only boss and it was behind a wall of heroic bosses just to get to him. The targeted audience for this boss was the progression guilds that were working towards or clearing heroics - these are the very same guilds that never had a problem with the instance being "too large" or taking "too long" - rather these are the very guilds that had the time to do so.

To design him that way and then afterwards proclaim that the main reason so many didn't see him was.... the instance was too large... is at the very least a very silly statement. The modern equivalent of this boss is Sinestra and even now - 2 tiers later - only 2% of guilds have killed it. Please do not tell me in MoP the reson for not having such a boss will again be "because it took too long to clear BoT so not many people saw Sinestra...".

Next, I am not sure if you actually raided during Ulduar or not but Yogg Saron was a huge increase in difficulty from the previous bosses. While some higher end guilds may not have had the same issues, for the vast majority of casual guilds, dealing with clouds - particularly before they announced who they hit - was enough to leave with you no hair.

Yogg Saron, normal 25 man (before taking any keepers away) has the distinct pleasure of being almost tied to Lich King heroic for the number of failed attempts to kill boss. The only other boss that was in that ballpark was Sartharion 3D so to say once again that that Yogg Saron was not difficult and once again it was because the instance was too large makes it feel like you never actually raided this tier when it was current at all.



Ulduar had the longest longevity of every raid in WotLK and Cataclysm. One of the biggest problems with Ulduar was that you released ToC too soon.

Ulduar was released on 14 April 2009 and ToC on 4 August 2009 which only left 4 months of progression in there and the vast majority of raiding guilds were still working on Ulduar bosses - we even went back in there for several montsh after ToC was released finishing bosses, and a large reason for that was because the fights were so much better and more fun and were still considered progression.

This instance was designed to take time to clear which gave it a long life span. If you designed raids like this you don't need to bring out content faster. The only reason you have to bring out content so much faster now is because you shot yourselves in the foot and designed the content to be cleared faster.

I will never understand the mentality behind designing content that can be gobbled up in a few weeks then complaining about us being bored and having nothing to do - and then using this as a justification for reducing the content further. It is no wonder people are starting to get ansy for new stuff in shorter time periods - you designed it that way.



You know I hold the example of Ulduar in one hand and the example of having a "toggle" for heroic mode in the other and sorry but this makes no sense whatsoever.

I can understand the point of view that it is hard to make consistently new and unique ways of engaging heroics - but what the bloody hell do you think we are doing now? We HAVE a big red button for every single boss mode - the only difference is the mouse click is on your UI instead of on the wall. You talk about the mechanics in Ulduar becoming gimmicky after a time and yet the method you currently have in place is - and this is a personal opinion here so others will disagree - the stupidest design for implementing heroic modes since you first started experimenting with them.

There is no story behind them, no reason for there to be a heroic, no flow on with Raid design. I can't help visualising the Boss in front of us going "Come on, toggle that litte button and I will show you what I have under this kilt...!".

Long story short, if you design instances like Ulduar that are made to last, and have engaging switches between heroics and normals then not only do you have more time to create content and people are not in such a rush to move on, but you have much more engaging encounters that people talk about 2 years later. From a raider point of view I would have thought this is a win/win - you get more slack on the reigns to design better and more well thought out content.

But please, do not try to tell us that the reason you don't want to do this is because it takes too long to design and we want more content more quickly when the very reason we need that content more quickly is because you intentionally designed it that way.


^ QFT.


Amen, I really really hope that the blues check back in here and take this- and dont just shrug it off. This is probably the most important breakdown they are goin to read.
90 Worgen Mage
15160
Also, this needs to be linked again because it is awesome ^_^

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tCG2Q8iQzEE

Ulduar - The Movie


Oh my god... I have never seen that before, I just got goosebumps...
90 Undead Rogue
14115
01/26/2012 12:11 PMPosted by Kaivax
and we cant help but think that it would start to feel really gimmicky and forced if every raid encounter had its difficulty set by pushing a button, (or not killing adds, or changing the order you kill the bosses, or the other mechanics we used in Ulduar).


The way those hard modes were activated were no gimmick and actually required ingenuity(minus Mimiron)IMO. I think the real problem is the devs would have to create something brilliant for every encounter, so with ToC and beyond you guys just stuck with the easier method of just right clicking your portrait and "flipping the switch".
90 Human Warrior
16790
I never got to see Mimiron, Vezax, Yogg or Algalon until long after ICC was out and on farm. I never cared about progression or loot - Ulduar was a sublime experience from start to finish, and I still enjoy doing it every week at this level.


And I will jam forks into my eyes if I ever use those terms to describe a raid again.
90 Tauren Shaman
14570
Ulduar is great but too long (should be 2 raids). BWD and BOT are of perfect length.

Off topic: coolest looking boss Lord Marrowgar in ICC, try to remember the first time you entered ICC and faced him.
85 Blood Elf Death Knight
6770
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3hgcy6bsg4g
90 Night Elf Druid
15810
What a coincidence! We happened to talk about raid design and results with Ghostcrawler and Mumper yesterday, and everyone looked back fondly on Ulduar, among others.

Yes, the same designers and artists who worked on Ulduar are still working on raids.

Here's the thing -- Ulduar is an example of a raid where lots of players got to enjoy the first few bosses, and very few players ever saw the last few. Yogg Saron and Algalon were among the least-killed bosses ever, and not because they were exceedingly difficult. Rather, clearing the dungeon all the way to Yogg took up a big chunk of a raiding week (and you only had an hour to kill Algalon), and the ability to extend raid lockouts came later in 3.2.0 (but extending raid lockouts means getting less loot overall). Raid Finder partially resolves the length-of-raid problem, so we can consider designing longer raids, but that's not always an easy call. Long raids mean longer development time, and while some players might be willing to wait, we understand why others might get impatient.

Of course, having multiple raids in a tier (like the combination of Bastion of Twilight and Blackwing Descent) has the advantage of giving players different environments to play in while potentially making scheduling and logistics easier.

Pushing a big red button for Mimiron was very cool, and again is fondly remembered. We have created something like 40 raid bosses since the creation of those encounters however, and we cant help but think that it would start to feel really gimmicky and forced if every raid encounter had its difficulty set by pushing a button, (or not killing adds, or changing the order you kill the bosses, or the other mechanics we used in Ulduar). We think Mimiron would feel less special if there were six more bosses in the game with big red buttons, and we’re just not sure the design space is there to have a near infinite variety of means by which players launch a heroic mode in game.

Nonetheless, because there are so many requests for those style mechanics, we are considering doing a few bosses with optional modes (in the same way Mimiron, Freya or Sartharion had them) in Mists of Pandaria.


You are not losing subscriptions because people "do not see" the content. You are losing subscriptions because what people " do see" is not up to par.
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