Please bring back whoever designed Ulduar

86 Orc Shaman
4485
bump
90 Blood Elf Priest
12170
Are we really going to be stuck with these seven boss raids from now on? Really? ._.

If Wrath Ulduar were current content, I would happily run around and raid it ^_^ Unlike DS and Firelands where I just let out a huge sigh when raid day rolls around >.>
90 Blood Elf Rogue
13745
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tCG2Q8iQzEE

Relevant


Awesome Video! Made me miss the epicness of Ulduar.

Ulduar wasn't even the final raid of Wrath and it was 1000x more epic than this sorry final fight with deathwing raid.

Community Manager
What a coincidence! We happened to talk about raid design and results with Ghostcrawler and Mumper yesterday, and everyone looked back fondly on Ulduar, among others.

Yes, the same designers and artists who worked on Ulduar are still working on raids.

Here's the thing -- Ulduar is an example of a raid where lots of players got to enjoy the first few bosses, and very few players ever saw the last few. Yogg Saron and Algalon were among the least-killed bosses ever, and not because they were exceedingly difficult. Rather, clearing the dungeon all the way to Yogg took up a big chunk of a raiding week (and you only had an hour to kill Algalon), and the ability to extend raid lockouts came later in 3.2.0 (but extending raid lockouts means getting less loot overall). Raid Finder partially resolves the length-of-raid problem, so we can consider designing longer raids, but that's not always an easy call. Long raids mean longer development time, and while some players might be willing to wait, we understand why others might get impatient.

Of course, having multiple raids in a tier (like the combination of Bastion of Twilight and Blackwing Descent) has the advantage of giving players different environments to play in while potentially making scheduling and logistics easier.

Pushing a big red button for Mimiron was very cool, and again is fondly remembered. We have created something like 40 raid bosses since the creation of those encounters however, and we cant help but think that it would start to feel really gimmicky and forced if every raid encounter had its difficulty set by pushing a button, (or not killing adds, or changing the order you kill the bosses, or the other mechanics we used in Ulduar). We think Mimiron would feel less special if there were six more bosses in the game with big red buttons, and we’re just not sure the design space is there to have a near infinite variety of means by which players launch a heroic mode in game.

Nonetheless, because there are so many requests for those style mechanics, we are considering doing a few bosses with optional modes (in the same way Mimiron, Freya or Sartharion had them) in Mists of Pandaria.
- World of Warcraft
90 Undead Death Knight
12720
What a coincidence! We happened to talk about raid design and results with Ghostcrawler and Mumper yesterday, and everyone looked back fondly on Ulduar, among others.

Yes, the same designers and artists who worked on Ulduar are still working on raids.

Here's the thing -- Ulduar is an example of a raid where lots of players got to enjoy the first few bosses, and very few players ever saw the last few. Yogg Saron and Algalon were among the least-killed bosses ever, and not because they were exceedingly difficult. Rather, clearing the dungeon all the way to Yogg took up a big chunk of a raiding week (and you only had an hour to kill Algalon), and the ability to extend raid lockouts came later in 3.2.0 (but extending raid lockouts means getting less loot overall). Raid Finder partially resolves the length-of-raid problem, so we can consider designing longer raids, but that's not always an easy call. Long raids mean longer development time, and while some players might be willing to wait, we understand why others might get impatient.

Of course, having multiple raids in a tier (like the combination of Bastion of Twilight and Blackwing Descent) has the advantage of giving players different environments to play in while potentially making scheduling and logistics easier.

Pushing a big red button for Mimiron was very cool, and again is fondly remembered. We have created something like 40 raid bosses since the creation of those encounters however, and we cant help but think that it would start to feel really gimmicky and forced if every raid encounter had its difficulty set by pushing a button, (or not killing adds, or changing the order you kill the bosses, or the other mechanics we used in Ulduar). We think Mimiron would feel less special if there were six more bosses in the game with big red buttons, and we’re just not sure the design space is there to have a near infinite variety of means by which players launch a heroic mode in game.

Nonetheless, because there are so many requests for those style mechanics, we are considering doing a few bosses with optional modes (in the same way Mimiron, Freya or Sartharion had them) in Mists of Pandaria.


The thing is, the op mentioned nothing about raid length. Just about interest and quality of the fights. Just more interesting fight mechanics with more than one possible outcome.
61 Dwarf Death Knight
160
Clearing a dungeon in the beginning taking a long time is OK! It is really ok. The feeling of reward of exploring and clearing to the next boss is lost these days amongst the rush of purples.

Taking time to learn to clear a raid dungeon feels like progress week by week when you learn the bosses/trash so you can go faster. It feels like you are exploring a really cool place that's alive. I don't get those feelings in the least with Dragon Soul.

edit: Karazhan, Ulduar, BT - those are the raids I got immersed in the most. And to a little extent IC.
Edited by Preka on 1/26/2012 12:24 PM PST
90 Blood Elf Priest
12170
01/26/2012 12:11 PMPosted by Kaivax
Rather, clearing the dungeon all the way to Yogg took up a big chunk of a raiding week (and you only had an hour to kill Algalon), and the ability to extend raid lockouts came later in 3.2.0 (but extending raid lockouts means getting less loot overall).

Well now that we have extending raid lockouts, wouldn't the "raid is too long" argument be moot? Or, you could always make it an Ulduar style raid with wings that are separate instances, i.e. as if BoT/BWD/Tot4W were one big raid.

Also, Algalon having the one hour crunch time made it that much more epic when you DID down him, and if anything, you could always remove the time constraint once a boss is no longer current content.

01/26/2012 12:11 PMPosted by Kaivax
Nonetheless, because there are so many requests for those style mechanics, we are considering doing a few bosses with optional modes (in the same way Mimiron, Freya or Sartharion had them) in Mists of Pandaria.

This makes me happy and thank you <3

01/26/2012 12:11 PMPosted by Kaivax
Long raids mean longer development time, and while some players might be willing to wait, we understand why others might get impatient.

They may be impatient for a new raid, but the same players also get bored with just seven/eight bosses. It is deciding what is the lesser of two evils.
Edited by Arianenna on 1/26/2012 12:25 PM PST
90 Blood Elf Death Knight
7595
Well something has changed. The Deathwing fight is laughable, as well as entirely implausible.

I can suspend my disbelief when it comes to shooting fire out of our hands, but when we're fighting on a dragon's back I can't help but think "Why doesn't he just flip over?" or "Did he seriously just let this ship fly over him and a bunch of people parachute to his back?"
85 Troll Druid
4520
01/26/2012 12:11 PMPosted by Kaivax
Nonetheless, because there are so many requests for those style mechanics, we are considering doing a few bosses with optional modes (in the same way Mimiron, Freya or Sartharion had them) in Mists of Pandaria.



This is awesome. I thank you. Sarth was my favorite fight in that raid tier. That had everything to do with the 0d -> 3d options.
85 Dwarf Priest
11415
We waited 8 months for Firelands to come out with 7 bosses but we only waited 5 for Ulduar to come out with 14. I'm not sure how more raid bosses means longer wait time.
90 Blood Elf Priest
12170
01/26/2012 12:27 PMPosted by Jiigigaw
Nonetheless, because there are so many requests for those style mechanics, we are considering doing a few bosses with optional modes (in the same way Mimiron, Freya or Sartharion had them) in Mists of Pandaria.



This is awesome. I thank you. Sarth was my favorite fight in that raid tier. That had everything to do with the 0d -> 3d options.

It was awesome slowly working up to Sarth 3D ^_^ The first time we left up one drake, our raid was all..."OMG CAN WE DO THIS!!?" XD
90 Draenei Shaman
14655
01/26/2012 12:11 PMPosted by Kaivax
What a coincidence! We happened to talk about raid design and results with Ghostcrawler and Mumper yesterday, and everyone looked back fondly on Ulduar, among others.

If I had to name a raid that I consider my absolutely favourite in all of the World of Warcraft, Ulduar would most definitely be it.

If I had to name my most hated it would have to be the one that followed - Trial of the Crusader.

More Ulduar and less ToC. :)
90 Blood Elf Priest
9955
01/26/2012 12:11 PMPosted by Kaivax
Nonetheless, because there are so many requests for those style mechanics, we are considering doing a few bosses with optional modes (in the same way Mimiron, Freya or Sartharion had them) in Mists of Pandaria.


Thanks!

It's nice to hear back from Blues about things which matter to us. =]
90 Troll Druid
12220
What a coincidence! We happened to talk about raid design and results with Ghostcrawler and Mumper yesterday, and everyone looked back fondly on Ulduar, among others.

Yes, the same designers and artists who worked on Ulduar are still working on raids.

Here's the thing -- Ulduar is an example of a raid where lots of players got to enjoy the first few bosses, and very few players ever saw the last few. Yogg Saron and Algalon were among the least-killed bosses ever, and not because they were exceedingly difficult. Rather, clearing the dungeon all the way to Yogg took up a big chunk of a raiding week (and you only had an hour to kill Algalon), and the ability to extend raid lockouts came later in 3.2.0 (but extending raid lockouts means getting less loot overall). Raid Finder partially resolves the length-of-raid problem, so we can consider designing longer raids, but that's not always an easy call. Long raids mean longer development time, and while some players might be willing to wait, we understand why others might get impatient.

Of course, having multiple raids in a tier (like the combination of Bastion of Twilight and Blackwing Descent) has the advantage of giving players different environments to play in while potentially making scheduling and logistics easier.

Pushing a big red button for Mimiron was very cool, and again is fondly remembered. We have created something like 40 raid bosses since the creation of those encounters however, and we cant help but think that it would start to feel really gimmicky and forced if every raid encounter had its difficulty set by pushing a button, (or not killing adds, or changing the order you kill the bosses, or the other mechanics we used in Ulduar). We think Mimiron would feel less special if there were six more bosses in the game with big red buttons, and we’re just not sure the design space is there to have a near infinite variety of means by which players launch a heroic mode in game.

Nonetheless, because there are so many requests for those style mechanics, we are considering doing a few bosses with optional modes (in the same way Mimiron, Freya or Sartharion had them) in Mists of Pandaria.


I must say that, while the mechanics were fun and interesting, the thing that made that raid the best one ever (in the majority's opinion) was lore.

A player might not even know a thing about WoW's lore, but there was a visible sinergy between the zones, the story, the characters and the actual raid. It made so much sense and it ended up in an epic way that no one could describe. Aestethics played a great part in this, the place felt very unique and innovative. I loved Mimiron's train, Ulduar's defensive mechanisms, Veranus to Razorscale story, the concept of XT-002, Kologarn and the Watchers.

Ignis, the Iron Council and Auriaya were the least interesting bosses IMO, because they were sort of fillers (most bosses nowadays feel like this).

Some bosses that weren't menctioned outside the raid zone still made sense, because they were unique. XT-002 was a giant robot with a child's mind, Kologarn was a stone guardian with different body parts which can be attacked and Flame Leviathan was a defense mechanism powered by the Watcher's Towers. If you put all of this in a comic book, oh boy, it would be great.

I know I'm giving too much importance to lore, but it really shows off, despite the fact that most people don't speak about it or aparently don't notice. Ask anyone and they will know how cool those concepts are. Even if they don't know about most part of the lore, the lore itself is what implicitly made it cool.

Take in account this reactions when designing MoP raids and dungeons. Make them feel connected to the zones and make some characters/bosses interact with us while we level. Give them a personality and make them relevant to the story. I know it's hard, but it can be done.

Thanks!
Edited by Falarmon on 1/26/2012 12:35 PM PST
85 Goblin Shaman
7150
01/26/2012 12:31 PMPosted by Ashva
Not everybody has over 20 hours to clear the whole thing and its just like the blue said...

We raided two nights a week, 3.5 hours a raid night and cleared through Yogg quite a number of times before ToC came out. It in no way took anywhere NEAR 20 hours to clear through to Yogg and took even less time if you skipped the "optional" bosses.

~ Arianenna
85 Draenei Shaman
6690
Ulduar was longer than I'd prefer. By the time I got to Freya I wanted to get "connection issues" and go to bed. Ulduar was a great raid, but if it were broken up like Karazhan it might have been better. I loved the concept behind having two raids at once.

Please bring that back.
10 Undead Warrior
40
01/26/2012 12:11 PMPosted by Kaivax
Long raids mean longer development time, and while some players might be willing to wait, we understand why others might get impatient.



Ulduar was released 5 months after Naxx, and ICC was released 8 months after Ulduar. Two epic, long raids, that were about as far apart as we are waiting for new content now....only there was a whole tier of raiding in between those two (ToC).

So looking at the length and quality of Dragon Soul, will we ever get a confirmation that Blizzard has indeed slashed the amount of people working on WoW? Or will we be continued to be insulted with comments such as the one I quoted above?
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