Please bring back whoever designed Ulduar

90 Blood Elf Priest
12170
01/26/2012 12:50 PMPosted by Scriptures
I like Ulduar a lot, but personally I liked Karazhan so much more.

I liked all of the "story" based raids ^_^
90 Human Priest
10840
Maybe the message to take away from Ulduar being considered a great raid is that there was actually difficult content that was well-paced. Perhaps handing people easy raids with little to no difficulty curve is the problem with raiding today? Put another way; people will stay subscribed to the game if there is still a hill to climb. They will not stay subscribed if they get to the hill the first week via LFR.

Blizzard, get rid of per-patch gear resets. Have more bosses with optional orderings and a smoother difficulty curve. Make the last tier still relevant when working on the current tier. Get rid of, or reduce, the impact of badges. Stop treating loot like something you get for simply doing easy things often enough (random heroics, LFR) and instead make it part of actual progression (killing new bosses each week).

People don't subscribe to your game to *have* purples, they subscribe to *get* purples. Everything since Ulduar has devalued the acquiring of loot and instead emphasized the possession of loot. This is precisely backwards. It isn't about difficulty, it's about having something to reach for and progression to be had in regular chunks, not a burst every 4-6 months when a major patch lands.
73 Blood Elf Paladin
930
01/26/2012 12:38 PMPosted by Seneselina
Long raids mean longer development time, and while some players might be willing to wait, we understand why others might get impatient.



Ulduar was released 5 months after Naxx, and ICC was released 8 months after Ulduar. Two epic, long raids, that were about as far apart as we are waiting for new content now....only there was a whole tier of raiding in between those two (ToC).

So looking at the length and quality of Dragon Soul, will we ever get a confirmation that Blizzard has indeed slashed the amount of people working on WoW? Or will we be continued to be insulted with comments such as the one I quoted above?


You shouldn't assume that Ulduar only took 5 months to develop (or even that ICC only took 8), especially considering the content available upon release of WotLK was 'rehashed' Naxx with two other single boss raids. So you're far from being able to assess from this an estimation of development time for raids.

Unless you can confirm actual development time of raids with facts and not loosely based assumptions then they have no reason to try and answer your question.
90 Blood Elf Priest
12170
01/26/2012 12:58 PMPosted by Ashva
Extended lock outs would never work, wings become irrelevant once they are released like ICC. Again that is subjective opinion. It was a freaking tournament with a lot of lore behind it and you have shared nothing but subjective opinion on why it was bad. I can see why people disliked it coming from a big place like Ulduar but it was not a bad tier.

Wings being separate instances. Not wings like in ICC and the random gating it entailed. And ToC was disliked by a huge majority by a wide margin mainly due to the "bleh" design, uninteresting mechanics, and the start of the "flip a switch" heroic.

01/26/2012 12:58 PMPosted by Ashva
Want something that unique? Kara was it far more than Ulduar.

They were both non-linear huge story based raids. Nothing we have had in Wrath comes close to either.

01/26/2012 01:01 PMPosted by Ashva
Assaulting the Twilight armies at the Temple

You mean the trash pulls where half the raid goes AFK and tanks have to run around like chickens with their head cut off taunting? Yeah, that is really engaging...
Edited by Arianenna on 1/26/2012 1:03 PM PST
In practice, most people are content - even unknowingly so - just seeing the content. They blow through it on LFR or normal mode, they had a blast and beat the game, and then they get into Heroic mode... and the elephant in the room that no one talks about becomes, "Why am I completely relearning this fight and driving my head against the wall because he has one or two extra mechanics, just to get literally identical loot that just has a few extra stat points?" Everyone gives it their best, but after a month or so, people start trickling away. They don't really care about killing hard modes now that even the loot is a cheap carbon copy of gear they already have. The incentive is too small.


This. It's going to take some sub loss for Blizzard to see the light. I guarantee there is some skepticism of this strategy at Blizzard as it is - hence the 1 year pass.

Blizzard is being misled by both crowds - the "I just want to see the content" isn't going to stick around after they get the gear. And the "hardcore' raiders want more then a 'challenge' after all they could raid with armor pieces missing if that was the only goal..
Edited by Hume on 1/26/2012 1:04 PM PST
85 Draenei Paladin
11965
01/26/2012 12:11 PMPosted by Kaivax
Here's the thing -- Ulduar is an example of a raid where lots of players got to enjoy the first few bosses, and very few players ever saw the last few. Yogg Saron and Algalon were among the least-killed bosses ever, and not because they were exceedingly difficult. Rather, clearing the dungeon all the way to Yogg took up a big chunk of a raiding week (and you only had an hour to kill Algalon), and the ability to extend raid lockouts came later in 3.2.0 (but extending raid lockouts means getting less loot overall). Raid Finder partially resolves the length-of-raid problem, so we can consider designing longer raids, but that's not always an easy call. Long raids mean longer development time, and while some players might be willing to wait, we understand why others might get impatient.


Its hard to articulate the anger and frustration I (and so many others) have on statements like this. So I will try and do my best, please forgive me if I stray a bit.

I am truly tired of hearing the "these bosses were killed less" argument about everything. Yes, Kil'jaeden and Muru were killed less, but people who wanted to see that content went back to see it. It may not be the same intense experience as it was when it was current, but they get to enjoy it none-the-less. I had the privilege to down Yogg and Algalon when they were still considered "valid" content. Yes, there were time issue getting to Yogg, but honestly, you should not be creating content that takes such limited raid time to complete. If the new philosophy of the design team is to create content that once geared a raid can complete in less than 2 hours like Firelands and Dragon Soul have been, then there is an extreme disconnect between the design team and the playerbase.

I want challenge but more importantly, I want depth. Something that was given to us in Kara, SSC, BT, and Sunwell. Something that Ulduar had in spades. Hell, ICC may have become a joke after running it for well over a year but it still had depth and fun. That is something that can not be said about Firelands, ToC, and Dragon Soul. Longer instances give the opportunity for surprise and fun. Shorter instances/tiers tend to be watered down and quickly uninteresting.

I want a 12-14+ boss raid tier each and every time. At first, a shortened raid week will allow a group to kill a handful and as time goes on that handful will grow until the raid is on farm, and the group is ready to move on.

With the advent of LFR, (and its hopeful tweaks to improve it in MoP) everyone will eventually be able to see a watered down version of the end encounters no matter how long the instance is. Just simply by splitting LFR up into 2-4 boss chunks (Yes I would prefer smaller chunks per LFR), you allow yourself to create raid instances with more depth, more interesting encounters and more fun.

As for the time involved... I (like most people) are tired of the excuse that "more = more time". We just aren't seeing it. Firelands took 7 months and for each month we waited we got 1 boss. That is not an efficient use of your time. Dragon Soul was a six month wait and we got 1 extra boss in an instance that feels like a lot of it was just tossed together from old materials left over from Wrath, Deepholm and the dead Abyssal Maw instance.

The biggest problem is that the promises made are not being kept. We were told that we were going to see smaller patches more frequently. Instead what we have gotten is smaller patches less frequently than we saw patches in Wrath and TBC. If you are going to say something like that, then follow through. We do not need a new raiding tier every 4 months, but we do need new content every 4 months. We need to see things changing and churning and new things to do being added. The game is a themepark and when it comes down to it, there is not much left to do because whats there is already boring.
Edited by Mihli on 1/26/2012 1:12 PM PST
90 Blood Elf Priest
12170
Tell me again that I only did the fight once.

I am waiting...

~Arianenna


It was only used on one boss. If they kept doing it every patch, you would be saying it's gotten old. If they only do it once, you'll look back on it forever with glee. If they bring it up the next patch, it won't be as great the second time. You can't seem to realize that.

What do you think we do now to turn on HMs? We flip a switch. Mim is just ONE example. To say that Ulduar HMs are anything like the rehashed hardmodes we have no is silly.

I want a 12-14+ boss raid tier each and every time. At first, a shortened raid week will allow a group to kill a handful and as time goes on that handful will grow until the raid is on farm, and the group is ready to move on.

Amen!

When did it become the norm to full clear a new raid on the first reset? ._.
Edited by Arianenna on 1/26/2012 1:05 PM PST
61 Dwarf Death Knight
160


I think what you have is an army of mains, not alts. Designing raids for people to raid with multiple characters should not be a goal. But if you have the time then more power to ya.


I see it as alts. I'm just a good raider so I can do raids with any toon practically. We need to see zombie Onxyia for MOP...I liked 1 boss raid instances.


I'd agree with you there. Some shorter raids at the same time like what Onyxia was to MC/BWL what Gruuls/Mags was to Kara/SSC/TK.
100 Human Paladin
12375
I heard that the reason that Ulduar was awesome was that they had their best people working on it, and that afterward most of those people left to work on Blizzards new project codenamed: "Titan"...
85 Orc Death Knight
2930


It was only used on one boss. If they kept doing it every patch, you would be saying it's gotten old. If they only do it once, you'll look back on it forever with glee. If they bring it up the next patch, it won't be as great the second time. You can't seem to realize that.

What do you think we do now to turn on HMs? We flip a switch. Mim is just ONE example. To say that Ulduar HMs are anything like the rehashed hardmodes we have no is silly.


The Ulduar HM activations were either glorified switches or doing a part of the encounter faster.
1 Gnome Mage
0
Could we not go back to this model, with the ICC/DS style buff/nerf. It would help solve the lack of clearing, one would think.

01/26/2012 12:11 PMPosted by Kaivax
clearing the dungeon all the way to Yogg took up a big chunk of a raiding week (and you only had an hour to kill Algalon), and the ability to extend raid lockouts came later in 3.2.0 (but extending raid lockouts means getting less loot overall).


Could you guys not add a "wing" system, like in ICC, so if people wanted to jump to clear new bosses without extending a lock out, or farming cleared bosses later in the week. They could do a different wing.

From what i see on forums and what i hear from actual players. We want one epic raid vs 3 or 4 mediocre raids. It would be easier for you guys to design one epic raid, as opposed to recycling models and making horrid styled weapons for 4 "unique" raids. I liked the 1 boss raids as filler raids too. So instead of 3 raids with 3-4 bosses, one epic Ulduar type raid, and throw in some OS type 1 boss loot pinatas. You can even recycle the loot pinatas. :)

All of the point in the blue post are easily negated. As it seems like a form response, as opposed to an actual response. So instead of Activision's talking points, how bout you actually come out and say, "We can't go back to this model, we want everyone to clear content so they keep subscribing." :) You know instead of listening to what the players actually want, that will keep long term subscriptions as opposed to a impulse buy.
90 Blood Elf Mage
13660
Loved Ulduar, and I am still farming my transmog set from it.

There are a few complaints about Ulduar but I feel the game has overcome them since.

"How do I activate HM/HOLY CRAP WE ACTIVATED HM BY MISTAKE QQ"
Dungeon Journal can be used to counter this complaint.
"It is too long of a raid"
Raid lockout extensions fix this
"It is too hard"
LFR can fix this

I think that about covers it.
90 Blood Elf Priest
12170

What do you think we do now to turn on HMs? We flip a switch. Mim is just ONE example. To say that Ulduar HMs are anything like the rehashed hardmodes we have no is silly.


The Ulduar HM activations were either glorified switches or doing a part of the encounter faster.

Which is still better than the "flip a switch" we have now to make the same fight a lil' different.
85 Orc Shaman
12530
Ulduar is hyped up to be a lot more than it was. A lot of people I talk to say how awesome it was but they never cleared it till long after it was current content.

ICC was crap except for maybe three bosses in there.

Firelands is one of the best raid experiences in the game (heroic mode before nerfs). Could have been longer, sure, but it was great.

Really the only thing I would say is that they need to make more raid bosses per tier. Not too many more, but a couple more. Spread them out into different raid instances or keep them in one big one, doesn't matter.
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