Enhancement Shaman

02/02/2012 08:03 AMPosted by Semantic
I'm aware Blizz stated they've 'abandoned' the hybrid tax (cough), but if we bring all the aforementioned buffs (neglected to say Heroism/Lust) AND are competitive with pures - why on earth would you bring a rogue?!


This is pretty spot on. I dunno about the rest of the post.

If a shaman does just as much damage as a rogue (or other pure dps classes that offer little to no other utility), why bring a Rogue?

I feel like Rogues will always have a higher DPS potential than just about any other class because of the lack of utility otherwise (unless you happen to find a sub rogue for HAT or something). That is all they have... DPS.

Unfortunately, that doesn't translate into PvP very well, where hybridization (is that a word?) means that you lack "punch" in the Enh. Shaman's case. I would agree that their versatility is quite good but you don't really want that in organized PvP. You want people who can kill, heal and CC effectively. The main reason I ever stopped playing my feral druid. Watering down all of my other abilities to increase damage output eventually caught them in a nerf roller coaster. I gave up as to what Blizzard intended for them.
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90 Orc Shaman
11040
ok ok if you are an enhancement shaman in a guild that isnt US top 100 then you dont need to worry, things definitly need to be fixed shaman are pretty broken but if you play well then you can do just as much as everyone else. When you get into guilds such as vodka, premoinition, paragon etc then you need every bit of dps that you can get to kill a boss that is brand spankin new and has a harsh gear check since most of those guilds get into there with little to no new gear from the current tier, hell the first kill of heroic spine had 4 shamans in the raid 2 resto 1 enhance and 1 ele. If you play your class at a high level then theres no reason why you cant beat other dps or be on par, you have to play better than them to do so but thats the game.

As for pure classes vs hybrids.....rogues have no utility? soaking heroic morchok stomps, pure classes (other than locks) solo bouncing the ball on heroic zon'ozz, pure classes(other than locks) staying out for hour of twilight on ultraxion? tricks, shiv, mind numbing poison, misdirect, tranq shot, pet BL, timewarp, raid buffs etc. yeah i would never bring a pure dps class if they did the same dmg as another class.
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02/02/2012 02:56 PMPosted by Downpours
As for pure classes vs hybrids.....rogues have no utility? soaking heroic morchok stomps, pure classes (other than locks) solo bouncing the ball on heroic zon'ozz, pure classes(other than locks) staying out for hour of twilight on ultraxion? tricks, shiv, mind numbing poison, misdirect, tranq shot, pet BL, timewarp, raid buffs etc. yeah i would never bring a pure dps class if they did the same dmg as another class.


So you are saying if Rogues and Shamans had equal DPS potential, you would rather have a Rogue? I just want to to clarify how much utility Tricks and Feint bring to the table, for my own edification. I mean you are spot on with shiv/tranq though, I am always shiving raid bosses, I hear it gets rid of their enrage timer. I mean, how could I forget about mind numbing poison. You are right the options are endless with that one.
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85 Draenei Shaman
6495
02/02/2012 02:56 PMPosted by Downpours
ok ok if you are an enhancement shaman in a guild that isnt US top 100 then you dont need to worry, things definitly need to be fixed shaman are pretty broken but if you play well then you can do just as much as everyone else. When you get into guilds such as vodka, premoinition, paragon etc then you need every bit of dps that you can get to kill a boss that is brand spankin new and has a harsh gear check since most of those guilds get into there with little to no new gear from the current tier, hell the first kill of heroic spine had 4 shamans in the raid 2 resto 1 enhance and 1 ele. If you play your class at a high level then theres no reason why you cant beat other dps or be on par, you have to play better than them to do so but thats the game.


Good luck raiding in a top 25 guild as enhancement.

They could just as easily bring another fire mage with a legendary.

Regardless of where enhance shaman stand in top progression, even in the lowest form of raiding they aren't where they need to be. Trying to justify it with what top guilds are doing just proves the claims that much more.
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90 Orc Shaman
11040
tricks is rarely used for tanks anymore its used generally on other rogues for the dmg buff it gives, mutual tricks is a large dps increase. So as a raider you dont think a 50% aoe dmg reduction on a 10 second cd that can be glyphed to cost no energy isnt useful? mind numbing or curse of tongue from a warlock is used to slow the casting speed of an add or a boss and their are adds with an enrage effect, theres instences where both of those can be used to make your life easier.

as for raiding with a top 25 guild i actually said in my post that top raiding guilds generally dont bring enhancement shamans so.....yeah moving on. As for at a lower level again if you are in a guild that isnt "hard core" you can be on par or out dps the majority of dps classes. In my current guild we are 4/8 heroic, not amazing but we kill heroics, im never bottom of the barrel and depending on how well i execute i can be top 5 and parse farely high. Till you get to a point where everyone is playing their class to near 100% which is around US top 100, any dps class played well can do just as much dmg as any other class.
Edited by Downpours on 2/2/2012 3:57 PM PST
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02/02/2012 03:37 PMPosted by Downpours
tricks is rarely used for tanks anymore its used generally on other rogues for the dmg buff it gives, mutual tricks is a large dps increase. So as a raider you dont think a 50% aoe dmg reduction on a 10 second cd that can be glyphed to cost no energy isnt useful? mind numbing or curse of tongue from a warlock is used to slow the casting speed of an add or a boss and their are adds with an enrage effect, theres instences where both of those can be used to make your life easier.


Tricks is a straight DPS ability, asides form the minimal amount of DPS it adds to your target, it is not considered a "utility" ability. No rogue has ever been asked to stop in a middle of a fight to add mind numbing poison to his weapon and attack an add to apply the affect then reapply the appropriate poison and dps the boss.

Also, the rogue vs. shaman as an option was based on the shaman doing equal DPS potential than the rogue... of course shaman have more utility, that is the argument I was making.
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90 Orc Shaman
13750
02/02/2012 03:06 PMPosted by Eein
ok ok if you are an enhancement shaman in a guild that isnt US top 100 then you dont need to worry, things definitly need to be fixed shaman are pretty broken but if you play well then you can do just as much as everyone else. When you get into guilds such as vodka, premoinition, paragon etc then you need every bit of dps that you can get to kill a boss that is brand spankin new and has a harsh gear check since most of those guilds get into there with little to no new gear from the current tier, hell the first kill of heroic spine had 4 shamans in the raid 2 resto 1 enhance and 1 ele. If you play your class at a high level then theres no reason why you cant beat other dps or be on par, you have to play better than them to do so but thats the game.


Good luck raiding in a top 25 guild as enhancement.

They could just as easily bring another fire mage with a legendary.

Regardless of where enhance shaman stand in top progression, even in the lowest form of raiding they aren't where they need to be. Trying to justify it with what top guilds are doing just proves the claims that much more.


Wait, isn't Purge in a top 25?

02/02/2012 03:04 PMPosted by Tempera
So you are saying if Rogues and Shamans had equal DPS potential, you would rather have a Rogue? I just want to to clarify how much utility Tricks and Feint bring to the table, for my own edification. I mean you are spot on with shiv/tranq though, I am always shiving raid bosses, I hear it gets rid of their enrage timer. I mean, how could I forget about mind numbing poison. You are right the options are endless with that one.


Rather have whoever is the better player.

Let's be serious here - it's not like Enhancement has anything the raid absolutely needs anymore, either. Every buff can be found with relative ease.
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90 Troll Rogue
12335
02/02/2012 03:37 PMPosted by Downpours
So as a raider you dont think a 50% aoe dmg reduction on a 10 second cd that can be glyphed to cost no energy isnt useful?

Actually, Feint is always free. The glyph causes it to last for 9 of those 10 seconds.

The only drawback to Feint is the GCD.
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85 Night Elf Druid
3010
Look, the climb from 1-85 ain't too bad, so just pick a different class and reroll. I did, and I'm a lot happier.
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90 Troll Rogue
12335
02/02/2012 04:24 PMPosted by Hyjinx
Rather have whoever is the better player.

What if that better player is willing to reroll because he's tired of being ginger?
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90 Orc Shaman
13750
Huh. Talarind is ignored.. wonder who it is.
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89 Dwarf Shaman
10135

3) There is no hybrid-healer style. That died a long time ago. Also, so far in Mists we'll only have Healing Surge as a healing spell, so there goes your entire argument.


A little advice - don't make your own argument a fallacy by referring to something which isn't in even in the game yet.

My guess is you're playing in a 25M where there are less roles to min-max, less hybrid utility overall, and your buffs are made redundant as a result of homogenisation. I play in a 10M where Shadow Priest Hymns, dps Druid Tranq's and my Rains can help the raid get across the line.

Let's not mince words, there is no argument. QQ about Enhancement dps is unfounded and dumb - we are in a good place at the moment (middle of the pack). If your heart is set on top-5 why don't you play a pure?
Edited by Semantic on 2/2/2012 9:52 PM PST
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90 Tauren Shaman
12360
02/02/2012 09:45 PMPosted by Semantic
QQ about Enhancement dps is unfounded and dumb - we are in a good place at the moment (middle of the pack).

Simulated: http://simulationcraft.org/430/Raid_T13H.html
Evidence of actual logs: http://raidbots.com/dpsbot/Morchok/25H/all/14/60/avg/
From there, look through all the bosses on 25H. Though Enhance doesn't show on Spine yet.

It's hard to tell based on actual logs, but it could be said we're in the middle of the pack... when the mechanics favor us, or hurt others. Where would we sit if mechanics weren't helping us and/or hurting others?
Only a simulation can show that.
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02/02/2012 04:24 PMPosted by Hyjinx
Let's be serious here - it's not like Enhancement has anything the raid absolutely needs anymore, either. Every buff can be found with relative ease.


I am not arguing to bring in Enh. over a Rogue with the current state of either.

Rogues definitely have higher sustained damage with probably better burst through AR/KS but there cannot be any argument for the amount of utility the shaman class brings to the table for a raid, especially in 10 mans.

My argument is that if they raised the damage potential for Enh/Ele Shamans there would be much less need to bring in certain classes like Rogues who do very little outside of DPS. The shear fact that Shamans can spec into a healer class would make them more enticing for 10 mans where you often switch between 2 & 3 healer encounters.

In PvE, I feel that if Enh. Shamans are in the upper-middle of all DPS specs, then that seems about right. I know that ferals were up there in DPS at one point but that was short-lived. I don't know where they stand at the moment in comparison to Enh. Shamans and other DPS specs.
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90 Orc Shaman
13750
02/02/2012 09:45 PMPosted by Semantic
A little advice - don't make your own argument a fallacy by referring to something which isn't in even in the game yet.


That was a supplement to my argument, not the argument itself. Therefore no fallacy. There's a reason why I used the word "also." Fact is, right now there is no hybrid healer style. There hasn't been one since they disabled the ability for you to take a bunch of talents in multiple trees and gave the healing trees huge healing bonuses in the form of passive boosts and healing oriented Masteries. Mists merely seems to be the final nail in the coffin.

02/02/2012 09:45 PMPosted by Semantic
My guess is you're playing in a 25M where there are less roles to min-max, less hybrid utility overall, and your buffs are made redundant as a result of homogenisation. I play in a 10M where Shadow Priest Hymns, dps Druid Tranq's and my Rains can help the raid get across the line.


25s still make use of things like Shadow Hymns and Tranquility from Balance and Feral, and I do occasionally healing rain, but only when it won't adversely affect dps. For example, if we're grouping on Spine for the roll, then I can Healing Rain. The point of the fight is to kill what you're supposed to kill ASAP though, which means I can't do that while I'm supposed to be killing the Amalgamation. Likewise, the only time I really heal myself is Zon'ozz's black phase. In other words, using your tools is fine, when appropriate. The way you phrased your argument, however, was to basically throw every Maelstrom stack at heals, and you implied holding 5 stacks to save yourself or the tank. That's not viable.




My argument is that if they raised the damage potential for Enh/Ele Shamans there would be much less need to bring in certain classes like Rogues who do very little outside of DPS. The shear fact that Shamans can spec into a healer class would make them more enticing for 10 mans where you often switch between 2 & 3 healer encounters.


I'm not going to get into a full-fledged hybrid vs. pure debate with you here. I've had enough of that crap on the damage dealing forum. However, I will say that you're wrong here because you're not considering only the dps, which is what you need to do. When a Shaman is healing, he's not competing with a Rogue, and a Rogue was never eligible for that spot in the raid in the first place.

1-2 tanks: Pure not eligible.
2-3 healers: Pure not eligible.
5 dps spots: Everyone eligible.

If you want to argue that pures need a tanking/healing spec to get them into the raid in the other 5 spots, go argue that elsewhere. When you talk about Enhancement vs. Rogue, though, only the last 5 spots matter.
Edited by Hyjinx on 2/3/2012 8:59 AM PST
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90 Troll Shaman
9270
Semantic, then why are ret paladins on par with furry warriors?

Semantic, of all the buffs you listed. Okay the res aura, and armor buff, paladin. mages have lust. Paladins can seal heal to, so can death knights, so can hunters, so can rogues, so can warriors, so can locks, so every class. The healing stream sticks 2 every second. So if your heals heal 2k each tick, that 1k hps.

Rogues, have 5% crit, 4% phyisical damage buff, tricks, fait, CoS, distract, insane burst, do not share gear with a class that wants completely different stats. Oh notice how there is slow agi swords in dragon soul, but no off hand fist weapons?
Edited by Sidenorna on 2/3/2012 12:43 PM PST
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85 Draenei Shaman
6495
02/02/2012 04:24 PMPosted by Hyjinx
Wait, isn't Purge in a top 25?


No.

02/02/2012 04:24 PMPosted by Hyjinx
Let's be serious here - it's not like Enhancement has anything the raid absolutely needs anymore, either. Every buff can be found with relative ease.


This is what i mean.

:P

02/03/2012 07:52 AMPosted by Tempera
In PvE, I feel that if Enh. Shamans are in the upper-middle of all DPS specs, then that seems about right. I know that ferals were up there in DPS at one point but that was short-lived. I don't know where they stand at the moment in comparison to Enh. Shamans and other DPS specs.


Lower middle, right above specs nobody plays, because of how terrible the performance is compared to other specs of the same class.

In terms of optimal melee DPS spec per class, we're dead last.


IDC if they never fix shaman, I'm still having a blast. :P Being a fun class doesn't necessarily mean it has to be overpowered. :P
Edited by Eein on 2/3/2012 12:38 PM PST
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02/03/2012 12:22 PMPosted by Sidenorna
Rogues, have 5% crit, 4% phyisical damage buff, tricks, fait, CoS, distract, insane burst, do not share gear with a class that wants completely different stats. Oh notice how there is slow agi swords in dragon soul, but no off hand fist weapons?


What game are you playing.

Why do people insist on listing every ability a class/spec has and calling that utility? If that was your intention (which it clearly is, distract, lol) why did you leave so many abilities out?

5% crit? if you are lucky enough to have a sub Rogue in your 10 man, good luck (same goes for phys. debuff) 95% of raiding Rogues play Combat.

Tricks has been argued already.

Feint and CoS are almost always pure DPS increases (if any, see: uptime) for the Rogue only (one fight where they can abuse the mechanics to bounce a ball does not count as utility)

Everyone has on demand burst potential.

Rogues share gear with 3 other classes and soon to be 4. (Also Tier pieces are shared between 4 classes as well)

There hasn't been a sword since BoT with agility on it (outside of PvP weapons)

Seriously, stop making up things.

EDIT: was including Rogues with items initially
Edited by Tempera on 2/3/2012 2:49 PM PST
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02/03/2012 08:49 AMPosted by Hyjinx
If you want to argue that pures need a tanking/healing spec to get them into the raid in the other 5 spots, go argue that elsewhere. When you talk about Enhancement vs. Rogue, though, only the last 5 spots matter.


Actually I was talking about the last 6 spots, and it does matter.

Why would you bring random arguments no one is making into the discussion.

Let me make it simple for you:

My argument is... (theoretically)

If Enhance Shaman DPS = Rogue DPS and Shaman Utility > Rogue Utility then Shaman is the clear choice. Why bring a Rogue.

The argument is a reason why Blizzard will never make a Shamans DPS potential on par with a Rogue like or "pure" (whatever that means) DPS class' potential.
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90 Troll Shaman
9270
02/03/2012 02:47 PMPosted by Tempera
Rogues, have 5% crit, 4% phyisical damage buff, tricks, fait, CoS, distract, insane burst, do not share gear with a class that wants completely different stats. Oh notice how there is slow agi swords in dragon soul, but no off hand fist weapons?


5% crit? if you are lucky enough to have a sub Rogue in your 10 man, good luck (same goes for phys. debuff) 95% of raiding Rogues play Combat.

Feint and CoS are almost always pure DPS increases (if any, see: uptime) for the Rogue only (one fight where they can abuse the mechanics to bounce a ball does not count as utility)

Everyone has on demand burst potential.

Rogues share gear with 3 other classes and soon to be 4. (Also Tier pieces are shared between 4 classes as well)

There hasn't been a sword since BoT with agility on it (outside of PvP weapons)

Seriously, stop making up things.

EDIT: was including Rogues with items initially


http://www.wowhead.com/item=78878 agi from pve that ilvl 397. Bot dropped ilvl 307 you say?

Rogues share armor with druids, backs,rings,necks, trinkets with enh,hunter, feral druids.

Enh shaman share armor with druids, backs,rings,necks, trinkets with rogue,hunter, feral druids.

Feral druids at least in theory need exp and just much hit as rogues.

The only mail gear that has exp that shaman can get is set pieces. THe amount of hit on mail gear outside of set pieces is way to low for an enh shaman. PS, mastery is the only good secondary stat enh shaman have after hit and exp cap.

Every shaman weapon is good for at least one spec of rogue, save slow off hands.Yet there are more rogue daggers than enh shaman weapons in dragon soul.

And what burst damage on demand do enh shaman have?

Oh 95% of all raiding rogues are combat, yet, of the seven rogues I raid with on any given raid day in a month not one of them are combat?Show me some numbers on that one.
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