Heroic Hagara: WTH

86 Tauren Death Knight
7490
Well what we see here is more of the Baleroc effect, but not as bad and in the end still possibly favoring the DK. Where one aspect of the fight (FA vs Deci Blade) DKs are amazing for, but the reg melee phases DKs are arguably the worst (not helped by most DKs stacking mastery- which isn't as strong against melee that isn't accompanied by significant unavoidable dmg).

Not having seen it on HM or non-LFR 25s myself, I wouldn't actually know if its quite the same type of effect as Bale- I dunno just how threatening Hagara's normal swings are in those versions nor the changes in dmg intake.

At least w/ FA, though shield tanks are greatly disfavored, the ability is timed and predicatble. It should show up on boss mods and since ur running HMs this early still I imagine ur healers are competent enough to prepare for it.
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85 Night Elf Warrior
0
01/30/2012 04:02 PMPosted by Krinu
What we're trying to argue, though, is that while we have an easier time with FA (due to blood shield) we still have to pop a CD like you do for that part of the fight, because her MH+OH swing can and does kill us from full health.


And what CD is it that warriors pop against Focused Assault? Shield Wall and....
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85 Human Warrior
11430
01/30/2012 04:02 PMPosted by Krinu
What we're trying to argue, though, is that while we have an easier time with FA (due to blood shield) we still have to pop a CD like you do for that part of the fight, because her MH+OH swing can and does kill us from full health.


Okay, seriously though, it doesn't kill you from full health. It kills you if you're not at full health. Perhaps this is me being ****-retentive but it really feels like you guys just keep repeatedly overstating your case.

You need a cooldown for every single Focused Assault as a warrior; you need a cooldown for FA+synced MH+OH swings as a DK. Like I've said, from looking at our logs they seem reasonably predictable - I haven't gone out of my way to focus on it because I need a cooldown every time regardless, but if I were a DK I'd probably investigate further.

And even if that weren't true, it still wouldn't be "the same for every tank." Bone Shield can cover a third of the Focused Assaults for a DK; Shield Block can cover none of the Focused Assaults as a warrior. That is pretty significant.

01/30/2012 04:02 PMPosted by Krinu
This is bad design. We should not be overpowered on a fight because we were underpowered previously.


They're never going to nail things perfectly and I don't consider the DK advantage to be "overpowered" here any more than I thought warriors were overpowered against, say, Halfus whelps or Nefarian skeletons. I guess if you thought those examples were egregious in terms of balance then it's probably consistent to feel that Hagara is egregious too, but I was arguing back then that warriors were great-but-not-overpowered for those fights and I feel like this is about the same degree of difference.

To be honest, the people I feel for the most in this (and many other fights this tier) are resto druids, as unlike priests/paladins they don't have an external tank cooldown currently (and unlike shaman they can't even drop Spirit Link next to the tank, which is at least better than nothing. That's significant in a lot of places - Morchok, Yor'sahj, Zon'ozz, Hagara, Blackhorn, and Madness, at the very least.

01/30/2012 04:02 PMPosted by Krinu
Also, saying that "if it's from 90% it's not a one shot" is really silly. Do you expect to be parked at 90% health and then suddenly die, not to a special or mechanic, but to freaking basic attacks?


Well, I think that calling the infrequent times when she syncs up melee attacks following Focused Assault "freaking basic attacks" as if they happen all the time is pretty silly. So I guess we're on the same page here. =)
Edited by Ahti on 1/30/2012 4:26 PM PST
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90 Draenei Death Knight
11090
01/30/2012 04:22 PMPosted by Ahti
Bone Shield can cover a third of the Focused Assaults for a DK


Can cover the entire thing.

FA lasts 5 seconds. Bone Shield has 6 charges with a charge-removal-ICD of 2 seconds, meaning a minimum duration of 10s (starting the counter on the first charge removal).

I don't see why it's so hard for DKs to admit that DKs have an advantage on this fight. We've always had an advantage against unblockable physical damage. It is significantly easier to keep a DK up during FA than any other tank, which means they require less total healing, which means they require less healing to reach that "minimum safe threshold" from the double-swing. You really don't even need a CD for FA, so why not just save it for the tail end of FA+melee? You're balanced around DS overhealing a decent bit (pre-armor buff), and you can get a double DS with no overheal very easily here (triple with set bonus / BT).
Edited by Euliat on 1/30/2012 4:55 PM PST
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85 Night Elf Warrior
0
01/30/2012 04:53 PMPosted by Euliat
I don't see why it's so hard for DKs to admit that DKs have an advantage on this fight. We've always had an advantage against unblockable physical damage. It is significantly easier to keep a DK up during FA than any other tank, which means they require less total healing, which means they require less healing to reach that "minimum safe threshold" from the double-swing. You really don't even need a CD for FA, so why not just save it for the tail end of FA+melee? You're balanced around DS overhealing a decent bit (pre-armor buff), and you can get a double DS with no overheal very easily here (triple with set bonus / BT).


To which I have to ask...would it be so bad if FA COULD be blocked? Would the "tank-rank" shift dramatically?

And regardless, "Your mastery! It does nothing!" is not a good design to employ unless it's employed to ALL tanks. If it can't be blocked, then neither should it be reduced by SD or Blood Shield. "But Blood DKs blah blah blah!" You think that a mastery emphasis Blood DK is giving up LESS than a shield tank who cannot block? Hell no. Everyone's in the same boat at that point.
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90 Blood Elf Death Knight
11850
01/30/2012 04:13 PMPosted by Feandel
What we're trying to argue, though, is that while we have an easier time with FA (due to blood shield) we still have to pop a CD like you do for that part of the fight, because her MH+OH swing can and does kill us from full health.


And what CD is it that warriors pop against Focused Assault? Shield Wall and....


Shield Wall, Heroic Leap, Intervene. These aare the reliable CDs that are assured to keep you alive if you do it right..

Unreliable CDs would be Charge/Intercept an iceblock..
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85 Human Warrior
11430
Perhaps you can explain why Charge/Intercept is less reliable than Intervene.
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90 Night Elf Druid
17755
Well, I think that calling the infrequent times when she syncs up melee attacks following Focused Assault "freaking basic attacks" as if they happen all the time is pretty silly. So I guess we're on the same page here. =)


Uh, she'll sync MH/OH after every Focused Assault, so it kinda does happen all the time.

[22:44:27.310] Hagara the Stormbinder Focused Assault Psiven 33687
[22:44:27.311] Hagara the Stormbinder hits Psiven 19178 (B: 19961)
[22:44:27.311] Hagara the Stormbinder hits Psiven 35445 (B: 36892)

[22:44:29.907] Hagara the Stormbinder hits Psiven 13493 (B: 14044)
[22:44:29.907] Hagara the Stormbinder hits Psiven 30284 (B: 31521)
[22:44:34.234] Hagara the Stormbinder hits Psiven Miss
[22:44:34.234] Hagara the Stormbinder hits Psiven 38514 (A: 7775, B: 48179)

[22:44:36.573] Hagara the Stormbinder hits Psiven Dodge
[22:44:36.573] Hagara the Stormbinder hits Psiven Parry

[22:45:38.578] Hagara the Stormbinder Focused Assault Psiven 28982
[22:45:40.292] Hagara the Stormbinder hits Psiven Miss
[22:45:40.738] Hagara the Stormbinder hits Psiven Dodge
[22:45:44.793] Hagara the Stormbinder hits Psiven 24338 (A: 6208, B: 13724)
[22:45:44.793] Hagara the Stormbinder hits Psiven Miss
[22:45:47.273] Hagara the Stormbinder hits Psiven Dodge
[22:45:47.273] Hagara the Stormbinder hits Psiven 34318 (B: 15418)

[22:45:54.751] Hagara the Stormbinder Focused Assault Psiven 23338
[22:45:56.847] Hagara the Stormbinder hits Psiven Dodge
[22:45:56.847] Hagara the Stormbinder hits Psiven Parry
[22:45:59.430] Hagara the Stormbinder hits Psiven Miss
[22:45:59.430] Hagara the Stormbinder hits Psiven Parry
[22:46:01.638] Hagara the Stormbinder hits Psiven Miss
[22:46:04.155] Hagara the Stormbinder hits Psiven Dodge
[22:46:04.155] Hagara the Stormbinder hits Psiven 49795 (A: 6035, B: 25083)
[22:46:05.877] Hagara the Stormbinder Focused Assault Psiven 39076

[22:46:07.251] Hagara the Stormbinder Focused Assault Psiven 12607 (A: 22764)
[22:46:14.936] Hagara the Stormbinder hits Psiven Parry
[22:46:14.936] Hagara the Stormbinder hits Psiven Dodge
[22:46:17.389] Hagara the Stormbinder hits Psiven 25177 (B: 11312)
[22:46:17.389] Hagara the Stormbinder hits Psiven 57413 (B: 25794)
[22:46:19.876] Hagara the Stormbinder hits Psiven Miss
[22:46:19.876] Hagara the Stormbinder hits Psiven 52443 (A: 5588, B: 26072)
[22:47:51.340] Hagara the Stormbinder hits Psiven 37775 (A: 21113, B: 26457)
[22:47:52.283] Hagara the Stormbinder Focused Assault Psiven 41878

...

[22:49:44.521] Hagara the Stormbinder Focused Assault Psiven 21870
[22:49:49.184] Hagara the Stormbinder hits Psiven 11862 (A: 2874, B: 6621)
[22:49:49.184] Hagara the Stormbinder hits Psiven 32684 (A: 2874, B: 15976)
[22:49:51.733] Hagara the Stormbinder hits Psiven Miss
[22:49:51.733] Hagara the Stormbinder hits Psiven Parry
[22:49:53.695] Hagara the Stormbinder hits Psiven Dodge
[22:49:53.695] Hagara the Stormbinder hits Psiven 23426 (A: 5856, B: 13156)
[22:49:55.755] Hagara the Stormbinder Focused Assault Psiven 42468 (A: 10617)

All the MH and OH hits are lined up, for the entire fight.

And even if that weren't true, it still wouldn't be "the same for every tank." Bone Shield can cover a third of the Focused Assaults for a DK; Shield Block can cover none of the Focused Assaults as a warrior. That is pretty significant.


Honestly, I have a hard time looking at cooldowns for a mechanic that needs no cooldowns whatsoever because it can be handled by Taunt-Taunt for every single Focused Assault as significant.
Edited by Slashlove on 1/30/2012 5:53 PM PST
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85 Human Warrior
11430
Yes, but look at when the swings are occurring.

[22:49:44.521] Hagara the Stormbinder Focused Assault Psiven 21870
[22:49:49.184] Hagara the Stormbinder hits Psiven 11862 (A: 2874, B: 6621)
[22:49:49.184] Hagara the Stormbinder hits Psiven 32684 (A: 2874, B: 15976)


5s gap because she stopped to cast something else - not a problem to have the tank topped here.

[22:46:07.251] Hagara the Stormbinder Focused Assault Psiven 12607 (A: 22764)
[22:46:14.936] Hagara the Stormbinder hits Psiven Parry
[22:46:14.936] Hagara the Stormbinder hits Psiven Dodge


7s gap, not a problem here.

[22:45:38.578] Hagara the Stormbinder Focused Assault Psiven 28982
[22:45:40.292] Hagara the Stormbinder hits Psiven Miss
[22:45:40.738] Hagara the Stormbinder hits Psiven Dodge


2s gap - arguably a problem.

[22:44:27.310] Hagara the Stormbinder Focused Assault Psiven 33687
[22:44:27.311] Hagara the Stormbinder hits Psiven 19178 (B: 19961)
[22:44:27.311] Hagara the Stormbinder hits Psiven 35445 (B: 36892)


This one is VERY CLEARLY a problem.

The reality is that the cases where she actually launches straight from FA into a synced melee *are* pretty unusual. I really don't think that anybody has trouble with her standard melee unaccompanied by FA even when the attacks are synced, which is what you're getting when she takes a 7-second break from melee from FA.
Edited by Ahti on 1/30/2012 5:57 PM PST
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90 Draenei Death Knight
11090
Noticing a decent amount of misses in the little excerpts you posted and in my own logs.

Do DW mobs have the standard player DW auto-attack penalty?
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85 Tauren Warrior
13390
01/30/2012 05:50 PMPosted by Euliat
Do DW mobs have the standard player DW auto-attack penalty?


Not all, but Hagara does.
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90 Night Elf Druid
17755
If you look at only the focused assaults and assume that that's the only time it'll happen, sure.

Each melee hit combo has the effect though.

[22:46:17.389] Hagara the Stormbinder hits Psiven 25177 (B: 11312)
[22:46:17.389] Hagara the Stormbinder hits Psiven 57413 (B: 25794)
[22:46:19.876] Hagara the Stormbinder hits Psiven Miss
[22:46:19.876] Hagara the Stormbinder hits Psiven 52443 (A: 5588, B: 26072)

Not healed to 100% and didn't Dodge/Parry/Miss? Dead. You get little breaks because not and then she'll go Shattered Ice right away, and now and then she'll turn around and stand there for a second with Tombs and that's your leeway. Aside from that, the entire fight is a "If I'm not at 100% and she swings, I die", if you're a DK tanking 25-H.

If you want to get into the frequency that they sync up with FA, here's the full list of FA's for that kill:
[22:44:27.310] Hagara the Stormbinder Focused Assault Psiven 33687
[22:44:27.311] Hagara the Stormbinder hits Psiven 19178 (B: 19961)
[22:44:27.311] Hagara the Stormbinder hits Psiven 35445 (B: 36892)

[22:44:42.786] Hagara the Stormbinder Focused Assault Psiven 16457 (A: 27682)
[22:44:47.577] Hagara the Stormbinder hits Psiven Dodge
[22:44:47.577] Hagara the Stormbinder hits Psiven Parry

[22:45:38.578] Hagara the Stormbinder Focused Assault Psiven 28982
[22:45:40.292] Hagara the Stormbinder hits Psiven Miss
[22:45:40.738] Hagara the Stormbinder hits Psiven Dodge

[22:45:54.751] Hagara the Stormbinder Focused Assault Psiven 23338
[22:45:56.847] Hagara the Stormbinder hits Psiven Dodge
[22:45:56.847] Hagara the Stormbinder hits Psiven Parry

[22:46:07.251] Hagara the Stormbinder Focused Assault Psiven 12607 (A: 22764)
[22:46:14.936] Hagara the Stormbinder hits Psiven Parry
[22:46:14.936] Hagara the Stormbinder hits Psiven Dodge

[22:47:56.701] Hagara the Stormbinder Focused Assault Psiven 31341
[22:47:57.385] Hagara the Stormbinder hits Psiven 16006 (B: 16660)
[22:48:02.183] Hagara the Stormbinder hits Psiven Miss

[22:48:27.586] Hagara the Stormbinder Focused Assault Psiven 37375
[22:48:32.065] Hagara the Stormbinder hits Psiven 17268 (A: 6208, B: 24435)
[22:48:32.065] Hagara the Stormbinder hits Psiven Dodge

[22:49:28.893] Hagara the Stormbinder Focused Assault Psiven 35335
[22:49:29.649] Hagara the Stormbinder hits Psiven 17296 (B: 18002)
[22:49:30.845] Hagara the Stormbinder hits Psiven 29679 (A: 12719, B: 44129)

[22:49:44.521] Hagara the Stormbinder Focused Assault Psiven 21870
[22:49:49.184] Hagara the Stormbinder hits Psiven 11862 (A: 2874, B: 6621)
[22:49:49.184] Hagara the Stormbinder hits Psiven 32684 (A: 2874, B: 15976)

[22:50:00.310] Hagara the Stormbinder Focused Assault Psiven 38164 (A: 9541)
[22:50:01.767] Hagara the Stormbinder hits Psiven Parry
[22:50:01.767] Hagara the Stormbinder hits Psiven 30976 (A: 7744, B: 17396)

Those delays are completely random because she chooses to cast Shattered Ice before her swings register. That's it.
You even get stuff like this:
[22:45:38.192] Hagara the Stormbinder Focused Assault Psiven 35836
[22:45:38.578] Hagara the Stormbinder begins to cast Shattered Ice
[22:45:38.578] Hagara the Stormbinder Focused Assault Psiven 28982
[22:45:40.292] Hagara the Stormbinder hits Psiven Miss
[22:45:40.738] Hagara the Stormbinder hits Psiven Dodge
[22:45:40.995] Hagara the Stormbinder begins to cast Shattered Ice

[22:46:07.251] Hagara the Stormbinder Focused Assault Psiven 12607 (A: 22764)
[22:46:11.069] Hagara the Stormbinder begins to cast Shattered Ice
[22:46:14.936] Hagara the Stormbinder hits Psiven Parry
[22:46:14.936] Hagara the Stormbinder hits Psiven Dodge
^^ That was lucky

[22:50:00.310] Hagara the Stormbinder Focused Assault Psiven 38164 (A: 9541)
[22:50:01.767] Hagara the Stormbinder hits Psiven Parry
[22:50:01.767] Hagara the Stormbinder hits Psiven 30976 (A: 7744, B: 17396)
[22:50:02.156] Hagara the Stormbinder begins to cast Shattered Ice
^^ That was not.
Edited by Slashlove on 1/30/2012 6:11 PM PST
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85 Human Warrior
11430
01/30/2012 05:41 PMPosted by Slashlove
Honestly, I have a hard time looking at cooldowns for a mechanic that needs no cooldowns whatsoever because it can be handled by Taunt-Taunt for every single Focused Assault as significant.


She has diminishing returns on Taunt, so in our experience you actually can't do every single Focused Assault (or your off-taunter is in for a nasty surprise around the end of the phase). You can handle all 3 by having the tank stand well outside melee for the first one and then Taunt-Taunting the last two, but to be honest when we tried that it made the DPS check pretty rough. We run pretty melee-heavy though, so maybe that's why.
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85 Human Warrior
11430
01/30/2012 05:58 PMPosted by Slashlove
Not healed to 100% and didn't Dodge/Parry/Miss? Dead.


Agreed. But I'm not sure what your point is - I don't feel like "I get healed to 100% after each set of sync'd melee swings" is a particular high bar to hurdle. She's got a 2.6 attack speed and an extremely high miss rate, as mentioned already. It's only really threatening immediately following a FA.
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90 Night Elf Druid
17755
Agreed. But I'm not sure what your point is - I don't feel like "I get healed to 100% after each set of sync'd melee swings" is a particular high bar to hurdle. She's got a 2.6 attack speed and an extremely high miss rate, as mentioned already. It's only really threatening immediately following a FA.


My point is that it's not just Focused Assaults - Focused Assault + melee isn't particularly different from a melee --> melee combo if you're saying that a 2 sec gap is "arguably" within the realm of problem. And acting as though her following from FA to melee is unusual is a bit untrue - it's completely random, but she will only tend to choose Shattered Ice a couple of times through the fight; it's almost always melee before Ice. To get to the point where Ice happens more often than not, you've won the rng lottery.

ESPECIALLY considering it's a fight where she Focused Assaults right as she happily Ice Tombs a bunch of healers.

She has diminishing returns on Taunt, so in our experience you actually can't do every single Focused Assault (or your off-taunter is in for a nasty surprise around the end of the phase). You can handle all 3 by having the tank stand well outside melee for the first one and then Taunt-Taunting the last two, but to be honest when we tried that it made the DPS check pretty rough.


Eh, considering the time between Special phases, taunting the second one's enough. That third one will have plenty of time for big CD's between each Third, and the first one has zero issues anyway.
Edited by Slashlove on 1/30/2012 6:27 PM PST
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85 Human Warrior
11430
01/30/2012 06:16 PMPosted by Slashlove
And acting as though her following from FA to melee is unusual is a bit untrue - it's completely random, but she will only tend to choose Shattered Ice a couple of times through the fight; it's almost always melee before Ice.


How sure are you that it's completely random? Shattered Ice seems to be cast on cooldown as far as I can tell as long as it's not preceded by a higher-priority ability. This means that any time it comes off cooldown during FA it gets cast immediately after. I'll do some trawling through our logs to get more detailed info but during the fight I felt I was able to predictably tell based on watching its cooldown.

01/30/2012 06:16 PMPosted by Slashlove
ESPECIALLY considering it's a fight where she Focused Assaults right as she happily Ice Tombs a bunch of healers.


Sure, but that doesn't favor any particular class.
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90 Night Elf Druid
17755
How sure are you that it's completely random? Shattered Ice seems to be cast on cooldown as far as I can tell as long as it's not preceded by a higher-priority ability. This means that any time it comes off cooldown during FA it gets cast immediately after. I'll do some trawling through our logs to get more detailed info but during the fight I felt I was able to predictably tell based on watching its cooldown.



[22:45:38.192] Hagara the Stormbinder Focused Assault Psiven 35836
[22:45:38.578] Hagara the Stormbinder begins to cast Shattered Ice
[22:45:38.578] Hagara the Stormbinder Focused Assault Psiven 28982
[22:45:40.292] Hagara the Stormbinder hits Psiven Miss
[22:45:40.738] Hagara the Stormbinder hits Psiven Dodge
[22:45:40.995] Hagara the Stormbinder begins to cast Shattered Ice

She owned herself on that one.

Every time Ice is up, she'll do it pretty soon after, but whether she chooses to swing and then immediately Ice or Ice and not swing at all is completely random from the many, many times I've seen it happen.
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85 Human Warrior
11430
Fair enough (BUT I WILL ALSO KEEP A CLOSE EYE ON IT THIS WEEK SLASHLOVE, I'M ON TO YOU).

To which I have to ask...would it be so bad if FA COULD be blocked? Would the "tank-rank" shift dramatically?

And regardless, "Your mastery! It does nothing!" is not a good design to employ unless it's employed to ALL tanks. If it can't be blocked, then neither should it be reduced by SD or Blood Shield. "But Blood DKs blah blah blah!" You think that a mastery emphasis Blood DK is giving up LESS than a shield tank who cannot block? Hell no. Everyone's in the same boat at that point.


Unfortunately they haven't built the tanks that way. A druid's mastery is simply significantly less of its overall mitigation than a warrior's or paladin's. A mastery-ignoring attack, if one existed, would penalize all the tanks in very different ways, just like an attack that ignored armor (but still allowed block) or an attack that ignored baseline mitigation would penalize the tanks in very different ways. Just like an attack that ignores block penalizes the tanks in very different ways, actually!

Honestly, I hope one of the lessons they take away from Dragon Soul is just that physical damage would really benefit from being more standardized. It is really, really opaque to have:

Morchok's Stomp (which apparently has 50% armor penetration and is affected by baseline mitigation, Demo Shout, AF/Inspiration,etc)

Impale (which is unmodified by armor but is affected by baseline mitigation/Demo Shout/etc)

Focused Assault (which is modified by armor and everything else, but is not blockable)

and Blackhorn's Devastate (which is blockable, modified by armor, and everything else)

...*ALL* classified as nothing more than "physical damage" in the same raid tier. Not only does that create a difficult balancing job, it's just not very transparent to the player base. I understand that they need some different levers to pull to tune encounter abilities, but jeez.
Edited by Ahti on 1/30/2012 7:37 PM PST
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90 Night Elf Druid
17755
Morchok's Stomp (which apparently has 50% armor penetration and is affected by baseline mitigation, Demo Shout, AF/Inspiration,etc)


Huh? It maths out perfectly to Armour as long as you use the right math.

Like at first I was confusing myself cause I was assuming it meant X/14 as in splits 14 ways, with 2 of which applied to Double STomp, then I realised it followed the X/12 with a *2 applied for Double after the split.
Edited by Slashlove on 1/30/2012 7:49 PM PST
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