Too scared to Arena...

90 Dwarf Hunter
16835
@Dakila

Basically. Comps like RLS or RMP this season don't really have to tactically setup anything. It's just "bomb - dance - udeadbro" unless you have an immunity cooldown, in which case even if you survive, are pushed far too much on the defensive to ever recover. They then repeat it a minute later and it's gg. Vial merely pushes it from broken into 3.0 Retribution territory,
Edited by Bullettime on 1/27/2012 8:14 PM PST
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90 Orc Death Knight
11460
Peep how swtor's resil makes them do more and take less dmg in pvp. It makes it so you don't wear pvp gear in pve and pve gear in pvp. Copy paste that into wow pls.
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85 Human Death Knight
4075
One of our upcoming goals in Mists of Pandaria is to make the gap between the overall DPS/healing of both PvE and PvP items smaller. In fact, we have design plans for new PvP combat mechanics that will make PvP gear and weapons markedly better in PvP than equivalent level PvE gear and weapons.


That's nice, but how does this fix the currently broken PvP season which will last another 5-6 months?

The rest of your post is just a collection of arbitrary insights of things we already know. There's switches, interrupts, peels dispels and CC in Arena! Thanks for the insight, but how exactly does TELLING us this give us any confidence in your ability to BALANCE this given how AWFUL the current state of PvP is?

Hey you're blue and it's great that you're trying to help us here, but giving us some anecdotes and a general rundown of how Arena works (if we didn't already know this, we wouldn't be here and if we did want to know this, we'd go look for a guide, not page11 of a thread entitled, "too scared to arena") does nothing to dispel a complete lack of confidence in Blizzard's ability to balance PvP.

Maybe if you put out some patch notes like, "we think it's unfair for people to die in a single kidney shot, so we're now nerfing X ability by X%" or, "we feel class X and Y synergize too well, so we're changing how effect A interacts with effect B" we'd start to care.

If anything the fact that you said that Blizzard actively patrols these forums whether they post or not, shatters my confidence in you even further. In the past 2 months there have been probably hundreds of threads and thousands of posts full of ideas on how to balance PvP.

Yet barely any changes have been made.
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89 Tauren Druid
8215
The NAO tourny on right now did it right. only pvp gear in Arena.
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87 Orc Hunter
5935
In team-based combat such as Arenas, pressuring an enemy in order to go for a kill or striving to protect your comrade from being the brunt of a focused assault are part of the experience, no matter what classes are driving to get the job done. Most matches are an incredibly complicated dance between combatants: a push and pull of offensive and defensive tactics, of coordinating switches, interrupts, dispels, crowd control, and of learning when to use your particular cooldowns or abilities, and when to change your tactics on the fly. Depending on who you ask, what class they are, what brackets they are in, and what team compositions they run, you are likely to get a totally different answer as to what particular class gives them the most trouble at any given time.

Or just grab a rogue, mage, and priest. Even without legendaries, it's extremely powerful. Give the rogue a vial, it's overkill. Give the mage a legendary, it's madness. Give both legendaries, it's impossible.
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It's simple, and always has been: Make stats react and interact differently when you're flagged/unflagged for pvp, at least on PvE oriented servers. Resilience broke WoW a long time ago, and the rift has never even been remotely addressed. It's ridiculous someone in full top-tier PvE gear can barely sc!%*% someone in welfare PvP gear, and always has been. Church and State shouldn't apply in WoW. Balance it.
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90 Orc Warlock
11585
Mages burst dmg been problem with frost and fire
Rouges problem is locking down person.
Diminishing returns been broken and never fixed.
If you live thought rouge attack only got one chance to get out and still keep stunning with no Diminishing returns effects on it and goes other class to.
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17 Orc Warrior
0
Here's my feedback on WoW PvP from the viewpoint of a very casual player:

I'm told that WoW is a rock-paper-scissors PvP paradigm & I understand this.
I'm told that WoW does not balance around 1v1 & I also understand this.

All of that said, it is frustrating to no end when I find that "counter-class" and engage it. When I'm going against my "counter class" it feels like a "why even bother?" situation.

Examples: when I play warrior and I bump into a blood DK or a frost mage, when I play my paladin and I bump into a hunter or well played warlock, when I play my warlock and I bump into a rogue.

In each of these cases I feel like whether I try my hardest or just go get a soda, the results are the same. The "counter-class" steamrolls over me with little effort. It's basically a ganking.

I would feel much better if the "counter class" wasn't a sure win. I don't mind fighting as an underdog if I feel in my heart that skillful play might save me. But the way things are right now, I don't enjoy it.

I would suggest closing the gap between counters, not forcing classes to be so pigeon-holed (ranged warrior maybe?), or possibly giving us a quick-swap option that might allow us to mitigate some of the disadvantage.

If I'm perfectly honest (and this isn't a rage quit or anything, just an observation), I'm intrigued by GW2's system so far. If I were to design a warrior in that game, I would have one weapon set that allows me to play as a defensive / healing hybrid and another weapon set that would allow me to play as a ranged dps. In this paradigm, bumping into a frost mage might not be so bad! I really wish World of Warcraft would adopt a similar feature.
Edited by Krumgork on 1/27/2012 9:37 PM PST
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85 Human Warrior
9045
The blues yet again prove how little they know about the PvP situation. Push and pull are one thing, but globaling a 4600 resilience healer means there's no time for pulling, no time for pushing, and certainly no time for anything but sitting there watching your screen as VoS crits for 40k and you sit around going "what is Blizzard doing?". It looks like the blues on the forum seem to portray the exact problem: Blizzard has no idea what they are doing. We pay money while they twiddle their fingers as less skilled players using a class that carries itself allow them to get to ratings they would never have seen if this game was properly balanced. We can only hope the 4th quarter shows how low Blizzard's numbers have gone down. They might wake up.
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85 Human Priest
5535
As you already mentioned, in the upcoming patch there is a change to Vial of Shadows that should reduce some of the burst damage you are experiencing in PvP.

Dying in openers certainly isn't fun, and can be incredibly frustrating if you're the one on the receiving end of such a coordinated attack, but don't give up! In addition to perhaps taking some time to focus on other activities such as Rated and unrated Battlegrounds where you have more people to watch your back, you might also consider browsing some PvP videos from other members of the community to not only help inspire you, but to also arm you with a further arsenal of tactics that you can use to your own advantage against opposing teams.

Also, from my own experience, when I was having a lot of trouble against a certain class or spec that I felt countered my usual tactics, I found it helpful to sometimes grab a friend that played that class and spent some time dueling them so that they could critique me on areas where I could improve my skills, including my timing on using certain abilities, and how I could counter some of their own tactics. That way when I stepped back into arenas, I was more confident in my own skills and felt better-prepared for how to expose the weaknesses of my enemies.

Keep at it, and remember there are players out there equally as scared to see you step out onto the Arena floor. :)


Such a coordinated attack? Maybe I misunderstood the OP, but it sounded like he wasn't dying as a result of a complex premeditated attack by a group of Special Operatives. It sounds to me that he, as are many of us, is dying to as little as one or two melee with PvE items doing unhealable and unavoidable damage and killing him in seconds.

The way melee, rogue in particular are able to play- and succeed- right now is hilarious. I know I'm not the only healer that can't help but laugh as a DK runs in and AMSes off his mount to train a target into the ground. Or when a rogue decides to COMPLETELY overextend himself behind a pillar to a target with DoTs and kill them in a Shadow Dance. How is this type of play so viable? The damage is just too much, getting a kill requires so little thought.

Picture a DK rogue cleave team. If the rogue smokebombs on top of a target with shadow dance and the DK can so much as touch the target, there is no chance of that target surviving. These two classes can 100-0 virtually anyone in less than 5 seconds with little to no coordination. It's just too effective for it's ease of execution.
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41 Draenei Hunter
200
While I always appreciate a blue response, most of the ones regarding PvP are simply empty words that make me facepalm while reading them. I really don't understand how you guys can not only perpetuate such blatantly obvious imbalances in the game, but also respond to them in the irritating ways that you do. The rogue daggers are in no way, shape or form a learn to play issue and it's frankly insulting to your PvP community to even use that as an excuse. Get a grip on your game.

Also, the "Wait til MoP and everything will be OK" response is equally empty as this has always been your get-out-of-jail-free card when your playerbase is sitting in a horribly imbalanced game at the tail end of an expansion.

I really wish you dudes would put some effort into making a stable and fun gaming environment NOW rather than constantly sitting on your hands spouting empty jargon about how things will, at some point, be so much better. "Just buy our expansion and you'll see!" Scrap the pseudo-pokemon ridiculousness and put that development time into class/game balance. The teeter totter that is WoW class balance has become incredibly tiresome and frustrating to the point of wondering, "why do I even bother?".
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85 Draenei Mage
9160
Somehow you guys managed to let burst get more out of hand that in was in WOTLK.

It's like the entire development team doesn't learn their lesson after entire *years* of WoW PvP. I don't think people at Blizzard really appreciate how frustrating it is to watch the same cycles repeat themselves for 3+ years.

Here's an example. You take a class like rogues- that have already been about pressure and control. They revolve heavily around their cool-downs for those. They use their offensive cool-downs to force the other team to turtle and play defensively, so that the other team can't put out significant pressure. They wear PvE gear (armor/weapons trinkets). You guys saw this with Glaives. Glaive rogues were running around just wrecking people in PvE gear because their offensive power was just so crushing. They didn't need a ton of resilience, because their class isn't built around taking hits to begin with.

Same deal with frost mages. The spec is built around kiting and defensive snares/shields/immunity CDS like iceblock. Frost Mages aren't designed to tank a lot of hits. Warlocks are supposed to be able to tank hits but currently can't unless they have a Resto Shaman. You see mages running PvE trinkets/Weapons/Armor all the time for more offensive power because it's frankly dumb not to.

You guys keep allowing legendary weapons in arena. Seriously stop it. It's horribly imbalanced on so many levels and always has been. They do *crushingly* more damage than normal weapons and even 2200 weapons. How could you guys let stuff like Shadowmourne/Legendary Staff stand in arena? How is it skill when your' opponent duplicates an extra frostbolt and shatter crits you w/ double frost bolt lance in a smoke bomb w/ rogue burst coupled with it- and you just crumple? If you have a defensive CD when that happens to avoid basically getting obliterated that's awesome. Not every class has them or can survive multiple set-ups.

Even rated battlegrounds gets tainted by this PvE gear/trinket nonsense. Anybody could have looked at trinkets like CotC and told you "Lol Problem". Large scale PvP and multiple people on a team have CotC/Heroic CotC that just repeatedly procs nailing everyone with AoE shadow bolts for several thousand damage per person on a short ICD.

There's just way too much stuff that never gets addressed or looked at for years on a core level. You can't expect people to believe the development team cares or is trying to make PvP balanced and fun without concrete changes at this point between the damage some classes put out...allowing legendary weapons in rated PvP...allowing PvE gear in PvP... It's been 3 years base minimum.

Just gonna leave this here: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K_4K0HR6LlU
Edited by Illumin on 1/27/2012 10:57 PM PST
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90 Blood Elf Paladin
15265
One of our upcoming goals in Mists of Pandaria is to make the gap between the overall DPS/healing of both PvE and PvP items smaller. In fact, we have design plans for new PvP combat mechanics that will make PvP gear and weapons markedly better in PvP than equivalent level PvE gear and weapons.

The overall goal is to reduce the barrier for crossing between PvE and PvP (and vice versa), as well as to also ensure that PvP gear is the best in PvP, and PvE gear is the best in PvE.


WOW!!!

NEW MOP INFO!! Thanks so much for new info Vaeflare! The community is chomping at the bits for any new info about Mists, and hearing that PvP is going to be more improved as well as PvE/PvP crossover is welcome news indeed!!
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85 Human Death Knight
One
6080
As you already mentioned, in the upcoming patch there is a change to Vial of Shadows that should reduce some of the burst damage you are experiencing in PvP.

Dying in openers certainly isn't fun, and can be incredibly frustrating if you're the one on the receiving end of such a coordinated attack, but don't give up! In addition to perhaps taking some time to focus on other activities such as Rated and unrated Battlegrounds where you have more people to watch your back, you might also consider browsing some PvP videos from other members of the community to not only help inspire you, but to also arm you with a further arsenal of tactics that you can use to your own advantage against opposing teams.

Also, from my own experience, when I was having a lot of trouble against a certain class or spec that I felt countered my usual tactics, I found it helpful to sometimes grab a friend that played that class and spent some time dueling them so that they could critique me on areas where I could improve my skills, including my timing on using certain abilities, and how I could counter some of their own tactics. That way when I stepped back into arenas, I was more confident in my own skills and felt better-prepared for how to expose the weaknesses of my enemies.

Keep at it, and remember there are players out there equally as scared to see you step out onto the Arena floor. :)


Such a coordinated attack? Maybe I misunderstood the OP, but it sounded like he wasn't dying as a result of a complex premeditated attack by a group of Special Operatives. It sounds to me that he, as are many of us, is dying to as little as one or two melee with PvE items doing unhealable and unavoidable damage and killing him in seconds.

The way melee, rogue in particular are able to play- and succeed- right now is hilarious. I know I'm not the only healer that can't help but laugh as a DK runs in and AMSes off his mount to train a target into the ground. Or when a rogue decides to COMPLETELY overextend himself behind a pillar to a target with DoTs and kill them in a Shadow Dance. How is this type of play so viable? The damage is just too much, getting a kill requires so little thought.

Picture a DK rogue cleave team. If the rogue smokebombs on top of a target with shadow dance and the DK can so much as touch the target, there is no chance of that target surviving. These two classes can 100-0 virtually anyone in less than 5 seconds with little to no coordination. It's just too effective for it's ease of execution.


This coming from the kid who plays RMP, watching pro's get killed 2 seconds into the opener because the RMP is so skilled... lol JK
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So we have to wait a full year and buy an expansion for any positive PvP changes?

"MoP will fix it" hmmm, where have I heard that before.
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