Too scared to Arena...

85 Draenei Shaman
4725
im glad a blue responded.... but this is pretty much exactly what i don't want to hear
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88 Goblin Warlock
1410
clearly blue have no clue on pvp balance, funny they think vial is the only problem

let alone try to play arena as warrior, guess they haven't touch them at all in 4.3
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80 Undead Warrior
0
Vaeflare, you can play a boomkin and I'll duel you anytime anyday you want on my DK.

I'll stand in 1 spot with your mushrooms surrounding me, any let you have the opener.

Heck, I can even start the duel at 50% health if you want.
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82 Undead Rogue
6915
This bears re-iterating because it is just as relevant as ever

(snipped from http://www.warcry.com/articles/view/interviews/6773-Five-Years-of-Warcraft-Speaking-With-Blizzards-Rob-Pardo.2 under fair use0

Rob Pardo, senior VP of game design, Blizzard Entertainment, aka Ghostcrawler's boss:



What are you most proud of over the last five years? What was the biggest mistake you think you made?

What I'm most proud of? It's just kind of the achievement of WoW itself, of having this goal - our goal was to look at the genre, and we saw what was super fun about it, but unfortunately in the previous MMOs you always had to be hardcore to get to that really "sticky" fun. But for the people that did it, we all saw how much fun there was in that genre that so many people couldn't ever get to. Our No.1 goal with WoW was, "Lets make a game where people can get to that fun, see it, and get invested in this wonderful genre instead of scoffing, and passing over it because it was an MMO."

We did it through a lot of methods; we had directed quest gameplay from beginning to end, you could solo all the way to the top - grouping was encouraged rather than required. The level curve actually matches the content. There were lots of little implementation details, but the idea was this: "Let's just take this super fun genre that people don't know really exists, and expand it out so that everyone can enjoy that." We set that goal and achieved it, and I'm most proud of that. A lot of the time you try to achieve goals, and don't quite make it all the way - you might make 70% of the goal - especially if it's so lofty.

As for the biggest mistake? There's a lot of them that I think, were ... they just "fell out" of things. One example: I wish the servers were more stable when we launched, of course - there's a lot of that sort of thing. We have a lot of excuses for that - we didn't expect nearly the response - but we can't say it wasn't a mistake. If I was going to pick on a game design thing that I look back on and think was a mistake? We really never designed WoW to be a competitive e-sports game; it was something that we decided to start tackling because there was such a desire and demand to evolve it in that direction, to introduce competitive arenas. I'm not sure that that was the right thing to do with the game.

We didn't engineer the game and classes and balance around it, we just added it on, so it continues to be very difficult to balance. Is WoW a PvE cooperative game, or a competitive PvP game? There's constant pressure on the class balance team, there's pressure on the game itself, and a lot of times players who don't PvP don't understand why their classes are changing. I don't think we ever foresaw how much tuning and tweaking we'd have to do to balance it in that direction. Either I'd go back in time to before WoW ever shipped and change the rules to make the basic game more conductive for being an e-sport, or if not that, just say it doesn't make sense. Right now, WoW has a bit of a schizophrenic philosophy behind it, and we're trying to figure out how to guide it.

It's tricky, now that we've gone down that road, because we have a passionate, large audience that enjoys it - the Arena, the e-sport - so we can't just chop off that head. We can't just say, "We fouled up and will go back to how it used to be before," because we have a really passionate audience that wants it in the game.

If I could go back in time before we shipped WoW, I would have either made serious changes to basic class balance to facilitate that type of play, or if I went back to when we had the idea two years later, I would have said, "Maybe we shouldn't go there."

Edited by Slickwax on 1/27/2012 10:31 AM PST
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90 Human Warrior
0
Boy I wish they would make up their mind about pvp. Middle of season 9 and season 10, balance wise, were very promising (ignoring mmr change that ruined season). Of the few games I've queued in this season, it feels like rogues are pretty much the supreme melee and that "bring the player, not the class" motto we kept hearing is starting to disappear.
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85 Tauren Shaman
7020
This bears re-iterating because it is just as relevant as ever

(snipped from http://www.warcry.com/articles/view/interviews/6773-Five-Years-of-Warcraft-Speaking-With-Blizzards-Rob-Pardo.2 under fair use0

Rob Pardo, senior VP of game design, Blizzard Entertainment, aka Ghostcrawler's boss:



What are you most proud of over the last five years? What was the biggest mistake you think you made?

What I'm most proud of? It's just kind of the achievement of WoW itself, of having this goal - our goal was to look at the genre, and we saw what was super fun about it, but unfortunately in the previous MMOs you always had to be hardcore to get to that really "sticky" fun. But for the people that did it, we all saw how much fun there was in that genre that so many people couldn't ever get to. Our No.1 goal with WoW was, "Lets make a game where people can get to that fun, see it, and get invested in this wonderful genre instead of scoffing, and passing over it because it was an MMO."

We did it through a lot of methods; we had directed quest gameplay from beginning to end, you could solo all the way to the top - grouping was encouraged rather than required. The level curve actually matches the content. There were lots of little implementation details, but the idea was this: "Let's just take this super fun genre that people don't know really exists, and expand it out so that everyone can enjoy that." We set that goal and achieved it, and I'm most proud of that. A lot of the time you try to achieve goals, and don't quite make it all the way - you might make 70% of the goal - especially if it's so lofty.

As for the biggest mistake? There's a lot of them that I think, were ... they just "fell out" of things. One example: I wish the servers were more stable when we launched, of course - there's a lot of that sort of thing. We have a lot of excuses for that - we didn't expect nearly the response - but we can't say it wasn't a mistake. If I was going to pick on a game design thing that I look back on and think was a mistake? We really never designed WoW to be a competitive e-sports game; it was something that we decided to start tackling because there was such a desire and demand to evolve it in that direction, to introduce competitive arenas. I'm not sure that that was the right thing to do with the game.

We didn't engineer the game and classes and balance around it, we just added it on, so it continues to be very difficult to balance. Is WoW a PvE cooperative game, or a competitive PvP game? There's constant pressure on the class balance team, there's pressure on the game itself, and a lot of times players who don't PvP don't understand why their classes are changing. I don't think we ever foresaw how much tuning and tweaking we'd have to do to balance it in that direction. Either I'd go back in time to before WoW ever shipped and change the rules to make the basic game more conductive for being an e-sport, or if not that, just say it doesn't make sense. Right now, WoW has a bit of a schizophrenic philosophy behind it, and we're trying to figure out how to guide it.

It's tricky, now that we've gone down that road, because we have a passionate, large audience that enjoys it - the Arena, the e-sport - so we can't just chop off that head. We can't just say, "We fouled up and will go back to how it used to be before," because we have a really passionate audience that wants it in the game.

If I could go back in time before we shipped WoW, I would have either made serious changes to basic class balance to facilitate that type of play, or if I went back to when we had the idea two years later, I would have said, "Maybe we shouldn't go there."



I wasn't aware of this quote. Thank you for it. It kinda clears up some of my own lingering suspicions.
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100 Worgen Rogue
10910
My warrior is my main toon but i posted on my rogue for the irony , but its funny to see a mage of all classes complain about being OP. Blizz does not care about PVP as much as you would liek them to it has been shown to you over the course of the years every time an issue comes up its oh this patch will fix it or resil will fix it, it hasnt happened but you hold hope and continue to complain to deaf ears. I could be in here talking about how broke warriors are but whats the point we have been complaining since cata dropped and then as a response they just nerf us even more, so from my experience all i can say is just ask blizz to atleast use vasoline next time because its not going to stop any time soon.
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90 Tauren Druid
5995
A blue respond in a random thread and this suddenly becomes the new hot topic, seriously, just let this freaking thread die.

I assure you if a blue had not responded this thread would already be dead.
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90 Undead Warlock
14110
Vaelflare,

I think its wonderful that a Blizzard employee actually acknowledged the existance of this forum.

Your advice, while good and well, does miss the point.

We have a game where several classes can take someone from 100% to 0% health inside the space of a single CC. That means the gameplay is broken. No amount of l2play or even helpful advice can really get around that fact.

TTK (time to kill) the most basic aspect of PvP game design. Characters need to survive at least as long as the game's longest CC. It's really that simple. All of these "cleave" comps work because they simply embrace the fact that WoW's PvP gameplay is broken, and seek to exploit this absurdly short TTK in the most efficient manner possible.

At the very highest levels of play, it is true that matches can last a long time. But neither the UI nor any other aspect of the game helps the novice or even intermediate player get to that point. If you don't have every cooldown in the game memorized, and tons of mods to track them all, as well as the ability to correctly choose your own cooldown in response to whichever one was just used - and by the way you have less than one second to do this - if you can't do all those things, you can't enjoy WoW PvP.

And that's really unfortnate for the vast majority of players.
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90 Orc Warrior
0
A blue respond in a random thread and this suddenly becomes the new hot topic, seriously, just let this freaking thread die.

I assure you if a blue had not responded this thread would already be dead.

That is part of the issue, Bliz is so out of touch with PvP that the one time they actually make a response... it is in a blatantly pointless troll thread that has nothing to do with the legitimate balance concerns of the community.


It honestly feels as though Bliz decided to handle this quote:
It's tricky, now that we've gone down that road, because we have a passionate, large audience that enjoys it - the Arena, the e-sport - so we can't just chop off that head. We can't just say, "We fouled up and will go back to how it used to be before," because we have a really passionate audience that wants it in the game.
By doing exactly that, chopping off the head by essentially ignoring it entirely until it starves to death. They just leave it alone until it gets to the point where people get frustrated enough to stop playing and they can say 'problem solved'.

So not only are they directly upsetting the "passionate audience that wants it in the game" that they previously said they didn't want to do, they are doing it in such a way that they don't have to admit to it and have the courage to own up to killing it off.

Pathetic.
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1 Orc Warrior
0
So not only are they directly upsetting the "passionate audience that wants it in the game" that they previously said they didn't want to do, they are doing it in such a way that they don't have to admit to it and have the courage to own up to killing it off.

Pathetic.
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100 Tauren Druid
15265
Didn't we get these huge HP levels in Cataclysm to fix the problem with PVP burst? Why was damage scaled so high that the HP changes were negated?

Gear scaling is Blizzard's biggest problem with balance. The new gear that comes out each tier scales too much. Why do I do 2K dps at level 60 but 20K dps at level 85? Blizzard should have cut gear scaling down immensely a long time ago. There's no need for the next tier to increase dps by 30% every new content patch. People will still raid even if they're not seeing these gigantic leaps in damage. It wasn't like this in Vanilla. DPS didn't double from Molten Core to Blackwing Lair. Blizzard should ease back on focusing on rewarding raiders with epic gear and start working more towards rewarding them with epic content.
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85 Human Rogue
4465
As you already mentioned, in the upcoming patch there is a change to Vial of Shadows that should reduce some of the burst damage you are experiencing in PvP.

Dying in openers certainly isn't fun, and can be incredibly frustrating if you're the one on the receiving end of such a coordinated attack, but don't give up! In addition to perhaps taking some time to focus on other activities such as Rated and unrated Battlegrounds where you have more people to watch your back, you might also consider browsing some PvP videos from other members of the community to not only help inspire you, but to also arm you with a further arsenal of tactics that you can use to your own advantage against opposing teams.

Also, from my own experience, when I was having a lot of trouble against a certain class or spec that I felt countered my usual tactics, I found it helpful to sometimes grab a friend that played that class and spent some time dueling them so that they could critique me on areas where I could improve my skills, including my timing on using certain abilities, and how I could counter some of their own tactics. That way when I stepped back into arenas, I was more confident in my own skills and felt better-prepared for how to expose the weaknesses of my enemies.

Keep at it, and remember there are players out there equally as scared to see you step out onto the Arena floor. :)


I don't really know how you can counter dying in an opener.
Other than like, not queueing.
The amount of damage my class can put out is so stupid.
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85 Human Warrior
1050
Just remove EXPOSE WEAKNESS from rogues. It would help a lot.
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85 Blood Elf Rogue
1440
As you already mentioned, in the upcoming patch there is a change to Vial of Shadows that should reduce some of the burst damage you are experiencing in PvP.

Dying in openers certainly isn't fun, and can be incredibly frustrating if you're the one on the receiving end of such a coordinated attack, but don't give up! In addition to perhaps taking some time to focus on other activities such as Rated and unrated Battlegrounds where you have more people to watch your back, you might also consider browsing some PvP videos from other members of the community to not only help inspire you, but to also arm you with a further arsenal of tactics that you can use to your own advantage against opposing teams.

Also, from my own experience, when I was having a lot of trouble against a certain class or spec that I felt countered my usual tactics, I found it helpful to sometimes grab a friend that played that class and spent some time dueling them so that they could critique me on areas where I could improve my skills, including my timing on using certain abilities, and how I could counter some of their own tactics. That way when I stepped back into arenas, I was more confident in my own skills and felt better-prepared for how to expose the weaknesses of my enemies.

Keep at it, and remember there are players out there equally as scared to see you step out onto the Arena floor. :)


Wow, my mind is blown. Like, Blizzard final came out and said we don't give a hoot about arena.
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85 Orc Death Knight
5080
Just wait until you face RMP with a rogue using vial and a mage using dragonwrath.
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85 Human Death Knight
1885
sit on it till weaps, and then play thats what i did tanked lol...but maybe ull be luckier
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