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I think having to have 3-5 addons to be effective in any role in PVP counterproductive to enticing new PVPers
We all have to track stuff like
Dots on target time remaining
CC time remaining
Friendly/Enemy Heals/Class marked
Enemy Power/Immune abilities popped
Mini Area map should be auto enabled in BG's
Is there even an in-game explaination of what to do in the BG objective-wise?
If anyone got into PVP for the first time, even if they were experienced at PVE, they would have no idea what was happening.
BG balancing is horrible. I was in a group of 5 priests, 3 warlocks, 1 mage, and me. (an undergeared enhance shaman) how do you even expect us to carry the flag?!
You also pit people in greens/blues against people in full cataclysmic.
Edited by Kandalo on 7/14/2012 2:33 PM PDT
PvP is something i could write about for hours and hours, but I'll do my best to keep this manageable, since we're on page 56 and all. Hoping you guys are still reading, and i hope PvP in mists and going forward can steal a bit more of the spotlight from the traditional pve-centric game. And because i think Eldacar is great, i want to mostly stick to his format.
Quality of Life issues:
To be clear, i would pvp just to do it. I think many people who have come and gone over the years probably have for one simple reason: pvp feels under-developed. Sure there's BG's to do, and even a nice long grindy gear progression. But thats it. No quests. No dailies. No gold. Very few RP or gimmicky shinies, boring trinkets, etc etc. Now again, many of us die hard pvpers don't need those carrots to keep on after, we Q for the same BG's because we have the fiery spirit of competition built into our cores, and thats more than enough. But personally, i feel like im playing much less of the game than i should be if i'm ONLY logging on to arena or cap my points. To put it another way, i think someone who logs on ONLY to do PvE content is much less likely to feel like they're playing a less finished game, ESPECIALLY with the massive improvements to the world, questing, Dungeon and Raid finder that the Cataclysm has brought us.
Quite simply, what i'm getting is as a pvper i want MORE things to log on for to get my blood pumping for pvp. Objectives all over the world to fly to and go do, the Gurubashi arena, and a good reason to invade and conquer my enemy's city are all things i would love to see more of.
What Cata BG additions do you like (not like):
I love the idea of the RBG system, but its current implementation i think needs work in 3 areas:
1) The mmr system, and how it is tied to an individual. Good for very high rated (2k+) teams that are very consistent, reliable and play together, such as a guild or a dedicated team. Terrrrrrrrrrible for 99% of WoW's other players, especially pvpers who tend to be scattered throughout the game's myriad pve or casual focused guilds. Furthermore, getting momentum going for RBG's on realms where hardcore pvp is low priority (i.e. maelstrom) is next to impossible.
Let me give you the run down for what I would be willing to bet my 13k achievement points on is the case for the vast majority of people interested in RBG's:
They get a pug started, people who all want to "give it a try" mixed with a few that typically 5 man random Q, or even do some arena. After what seems like forever, they fill the group, lose 4 matches in a row, having the wait another 10 minutes each time someone quits after realizing that bar for entry to organized pvp is about as high as a skysc!**!r. The group disbands never to attempt such a silly stunt again.
2) This goes for arena as well: the metagame shifts needs to be cared for and nurtured much like a delicately tuned raid boss who has to remain relevant through the patche's sometimes long cycle. This is probably another topic thats really heavy on game design and would require tons of forum space and discussion, so i just want to use something like Capture the Flag BG's as an example of something that should get more attention. In general, laissez faire is best so that people can strategize, counter-strategize, and the meta game can evolve, and etc, however in the case of CTF maps, very specific comps and strategies have been super super dominant to the point where a guild often times cancel an RBG night if their moonkin, rogue or prot war/DK flag tank doesn't on for the night.
A lot of this has to do with class balance and is this is not the thread for talking about how the game might be balanced. Simply pointing out that it would be healthy for the metagame if dominant strategies are looked at more than once every 6 months. Obviously the way the match is designed to begin with has a lot to do with this. Camping the flag waiting for 10 stacks and then smokebombing/sun beaming a carrier and their healer would not likely be a dominant strategy if we had the same WSG we had in vanilla. Not saying one ruleset is better than the other, i just think its something that should be iterated on.
3) The last thing about RBG's that i think doesn't work out well is the maps themselves: some of them need a bit more updating, like Warsong Gulch. Twin peaks is awesome because it has interesting terrain to deal with, and the flag houses (if it weren't for the dominant tank-camp-bomb strategies) generally encourage some interesting tatics. WSG has tree stumps you can shoot through and due to GY positioning, a base that leaves little imagination for defending, escaping with the flag or evading while waiting to cap. Battle for Gilneas tends to favor one team, especially with the presence of Crusader aura + Path of frost. Capture point capping in general could use a look as well, for example.... (continued)
Edited by Gatsumarim on 7/14/2012 3:14 PM PDT
... requiring a hard CC or stun to interrupt a capper rather than just spamming AoE, or perhaps simply a direct single target attack.
As far as random or general BG stuff i would like to comment on would be the queue system in general, but plenty of people have talked about that. The latest iteration of the report system works really well (sometimes too well if you know what i mean) but I'm curious to see what the potential of more player options in the UI would look like in a random BG, especially if you could get in game voice chat working nicely.
As for the BG's themselves, Twin peaks I thought was a lot of fun. Battle for Gilneas became more tolerable after the graveyard changes were made, but i think a revised capture point system is needed to make this a better BG overall. Its too easy to cap and squat on two base if your team is half way competent. IoC and AV saw little changes this expansion and that i'm very sad for. The two have epic potential thats just not being used, as in their current form they tend to be extremely dull, predictable matches. The meta game rarely shifts, the dominant strategies are zergy, rushed and involve both sides pvping as little as humanly possible. If you flew me out to Irvine, i could do a whole powerpoint on whats wrong with AV and IoC, but its hard to know what to suggest to do with them without knowing what your (the dev's at Bliz) intent is with these two monster size BG's. Tol Barad (and WG for that matter) i consider as extremely similar in scope and feel to AV and IoC. I think they should eventually be worked into 2 more epic size BG's, because again, huge potential, but in practice it ends up boiling down to incoherent zergi-ness (WG less so, there was a lot of cool skirmish type stuff that sometimes happened there).
What Cataclysm Arena changes/additions did you like?
I dont have a lot to comment on here except that i do like arena a lot, but i liked it more when it was more popular and there were more mechanics to deal with. The current arena game feels like it mostly boils down to stacking a comp with the best possible DPS cooldown chain paired with full immune defensive cooldowns (melee cleaves), or best possible controlling comps that have the longest CC/silence chains. If your team is better than the other at coordinating those 3 types of abilities, you will likely win. Complex strategies, or whittling another team down through consistent skillful play seems less the emphasis than chaining together a buncha stuff that essentially buffers or completely removes an enemy player's character or their character's actions from the equation. This is all complicated meta-game balance type stuff again, but i think removing things like mana burn is not necessarily good for arena. The more chess pieces a team has to strategize with, i think the more interesting and more skill is required to best the other team. As it is, its more a coordination effort than a strategy effort: "deep-sheep-bomb-gogo-dead" on skype i think has turned a lot of players off of arena, and thus the much lower population.
I think more stuff needs to be clear and built into the UI as well. Almost all serious arena guys use Gladius and gladiatorLOSA to tell them exactly what players are CC'd and for how long, and what abilities they are using, and when they end. So someway for players to better handle the flow of necessary pvp information would be nice. Some UI improvements were made, to be sure, but i think its only a start.
What Cataclysm General PVP changes/additions did you like?
In general, i appreciate the effort to make healer's mana, dispels and spell choice matter again, as well as slowing the pace of PvP down a bit from the insane gibfest that was lich king. I also appreciate the attempt to balance pvp better on the whole.
However i think the balancing was done way too much with the homogenization vehicle, and not enough was done to keep mechanics and scaling in check. Without getting too much into the balance discussion, i really feel like classes on the whole were watered down for the sake of making the arena game more predictable and perhaps easier to balance by numbers from your end of things (bliz developer's) rather than really rolling up the sleeves and getting into the nitty gritty of what you want the pvp to look and feel like on an individual spec level, arena level, and BG level; and at what point do the mechanics and gameplay breakdown due to scaling and coordinated lockouts or "immune to x" type stuff.
I realize this is part nostalgia, but the most fun pvp i remember in the game was from Burning Crusade. The pace felt good, and pvp battles really felt like it was about strategy, intelligence, and careful positioning and execution of abilities. Class balance was often skewed, but the pace and gameplay was overall more interesting to me than has been in Cata.
Edited by Gatsumarim on 7/14/2012 4:08 PM PDT
OK sorry didn't mean for this to get so unweildly, last post, i promise...
Low level pvp is another area of great potential that Cata kinda borked. I know its a concern for Mists, so i wont' say much about it.
Wanted to cover briefly some of my top issues that i haven't talked about already:
- RBG system of matching similar to arena doesn't work well, except for the very top and most advanced of teams. If thats the intent of it, great, but i feel like this feature will never get good numbers this way, and anyone interested is going to feel like they have to transfer servers just to get in on the fun.
- Older small BG's need a bit of a sprucing up and updating, specifically AB, Eye of the Storm and Warsong Gulch. Moslty some line of sight and some more interesting geometry or terrain would be great. The fence in WSG that overlooks the cliff for example. Should it block LoS? SHould it have breaks or gaps? Should it be able to be jumped (Hordeside used to able to be jumped, Ally side never could).
- IoC and AV (and possibly TB and WG) really ought to have a really long, man to man, heart to heart talk with the devs. Some questions to ask:
What is the point of these BG's? What makes them fun?
Should they or shouldn't they be grouped and developed as the small scale BG's? Could they be more persistent like vanilla?
What is the role of organized pvp with these BG's?
How can we encourage more player vs. player?
How can we encourage defense of objectives?
What is the role of secondary objectives in these BG's?
Role of reinforcements? Are they fun or not fun?
Without this "talk," you're going to see all but the most undergeared and uninterested in PvP content people blacklist the two 40 man bg's.
- The MMR and rating system i think needs to evolve somehow. Stratification is getting more and more odd because there isn't a whole lot of interest in arena other than to cap points for the week or be a gladiator. Pushing to glad often requires you to already be one or be known by several, or be able to pay for a carry. It almost certainly requires you to be on a specific realm.
- Somewhat related to the first bullet: Arena seems to have seen a giant decline in interest. The big rewards at the end of the season are awarded to fewer and fewer players. If gameplay and balance are improved upon, its possible that could spark enough interest at all levels of play for people to become interested in arena again, but im not sure if that alone is enough. It does seem kinda sad to let a potential e-sport to die off though.
- Two of the brackets are either dead, pointless, or horrifically balanced. While i was never a HUGE fan of 2v2, 5's is a lot a lot of fun assuming you can actually get 5 people to Q up together consistently. I think doing a FFA 2v2v2 might be an interesting way to help 2's be more dynamic, especially if its going to continue to be the rewardless bracket. Could solve the whole healer-dps stalemate problem and still make for fast Q's.
General pvp issues:
- More stuff to do. More reason to fly around this great big crazy world and rock some boxers off. I know it sounds stupid, but i WANT to have a reason to fly to Silithus and fight over dust, even if its just a bag of herbs as a reward. Best pvp in the world was careening around the edges and cliffs of Hellfire Citadel, Halaa and the Overlook. Most amazing pvp challenges i had was fighting off 10 players for a paltry arena master trinket every three hours. "But how do we get people to go get loldust?" Make it a server-wide pvp daily with a fatty fat reward. Boom, the barren wasteland now becomes a hotspot for buttkicking.
- Emphasis on balancing by tactics, strategy, positioning/terrain, and the unique kits of the specs, not raw numbers, watering down of abilities, and execution of a perfect CC chain. Losing root shifting on my druid made me quit the game for almost a year. Getting blown up by a ret and DK popping all DPS and immune cooldowns at the same time is sillypants. The new talent system looks sooooooo cool, i'm giddy with anticipation for that type of class development. Lets see how it translates into pvp mechanics and gameplay.
Those are the two big ones, things like UI improvements for player targeting and healing; and being able to read fights better (flow of relevant information) would be my next two on the list.
Edited by Gatsumarim on 7/14/2012 4:46 PM PDT
I was hoping to see some backward compatibility in bg talents in lower level bg's because right now at lower level's class's are so unbalanced that the bg mechanics don't play the same as they do at max level .this results in people who have no idea how to play some bg's at max level and they should always play in the same manner to promote good games and competition when the reach max level.
Edited by Blacksong on 7/14/2012 6:17 PM PDT
Implementation of a soldier’s salary would help with the burden of farming, particularly lowbie pvp. If you are pvping constantly, going out to farm for hours to pay for flasks and gear upgrades is time badly spent, particularly if youre xp-off.
None of Blizzards PvP changes in Cata were memorable. There was no wow-factor, nothing that made me like Blizz or made me want to do randoms any extra than before.
Nothing made the extra work and commitment of Arena attractive or the extra work of rated BGs attractive or viable for me and my playstyle and my RL.
I didn’t notice Blizz do much generally, if there was anything it was minor and/or subtle and neither made me hate pvp or like it any more than usual.
What are your top issues (ie what did I dislike) with Battlegrounds in Cataclysm?
(1) Random BGs were fun to heal at the start of Cata up until the arena people started getting geared, and then the melee, particularly DKs got so overpowering that it was pointless again and because I am a casual player that doesn’t arena and doesn’t do rated’s, I had no hope of competing in the arms race, so I participated a lot less. As usual, Arena/RBGs just ruin the game for really casual, random players. In classic wow, it was the raiders that ruined pvp, now it’s any area that provides a big gear advantage from grp play (ie legendaries, raid trinkets, top rated weapons).
(2) I agree with others in the thread: CC, particularly from DKs is out of control and spammed.
(3) IoC is a massive sprawling BG, its too big, its too over-reliant on vehicles, its too focused on the end boss, theres no great strategy to it, the quality of PvP is low and the tendency to get ganked by large groups is high. The cannons are pathetic. The walls take too long to bring down…for what it is, it should be over faster, theres nothing compelling to want to stay longer than absolutely needed.
(4) SotA is too reliant on the tanks, they are too fast now and this reduces real pvp. It was ok in Wrath, now its bad. They have too much life, remove a player from real combat to be a driver, require too much coordinated CC which is a chore, replacement tanks come to quickly, the game is usually over too quickly to be satisfying.
(5) AV is munted, everybody who played AV back in classic thinks this and has given this feedback, Blizz feel they know best and refuse to fix it. The game shouldn’t end with the defeat of Drek/Vanndar and the resource cap should be increased so the game goes longer. There should be more secondary objectives and achievement of objectives should be more complicated and engaging.
(6) BfG is an unsatisfying map, other people have criticized it better, all I can say for sure is I dislike it and I stopped queuing for it when possible. I would queue for WSG and EotS as the gameplay was more engaging with the largest amount of meaningful PvP of all the BGs; even if this meant forgoing conquest points. This pushed me into lowbie twink pvp.
(7) Call to arms makes people do BGs that they hate, like AV and SotA. The only reason people choose to do it is that you (Blizzard) bribe them to do it with no other choice.
Edited by Oonkiss on 7/15/2012 1:38 AM PDT
I hate arenas, did them a little bit in BC, but gave up, too much effort and too aggro and incompatible with my RL. Also, couldn’t fight effectively with the specs I liked the most at that time like Retribution, Demonology and Fire. Too bad Blizz linked doing Arena’s with skill. Its not skill, it’s a pet design with better rewards to bribe people to put in the extra effort. To make it work Blizz had to break lots of PvE to balance it and in the end declared that its impossible to balance 2v2 anyway…see what I mean?
(1) The PvP zone model of TB and WG suck. It’s like a really wasteful version of AV/IoC. Blizz QQ’s about the cost of creating content, but then wastes resources on huge zones where stuff only happens once in a while. WG was too focused on vehicles and the base; once the towers etc were dead it became a ghost town again. There was no meaningful PvP across the zone. Chilton insisted that it was a success in one interview I saw, presumably that underpinned the release of TB, it was also sucky. I did a couple of them and hated it. Boring zergfest focused on the base only, when that’s done it’s a ghost town except for skinners & dailies…boring as hell.
(2) I made the mistake of levelling a lowbie to 69 before it dawned on me after reading a bit more on the BGs forum that Blizz shunts xp-off people to their own queues to stop the poor pathetic levellers from getting smasht, so all my effort was wasted and I’ll have to dump that toon, all because of stupid xp in BGs. I have news for you, the dumb levellers with no gear get rolled in levelling randoms anyway and they level so fast from dungeons and questing that the occasional thrashing has little actual effect. All that happens now is that when you’re happy with a lowbie pvp toon, if you stuffup like me and level to the point you want, there’s liable to be no one else there to play with. There are only a few active ‘twink’ level ranges; the rest is a ghost town. So I disagree with Blizz agaian: randoms should be a place where anything goes and even noob players who’ve just joined the game should be warned about that and left to learn to play. The xp from BGs is crap compared to dungeons and questing anyway, it takes way longer to level from random BGs from my experience on Oon. So you’ve broken twinking to make it easier to get xp the slow way. If people don’t like getting beaten in BGs, what are they going to do at level 85, where it’s not much better except at the start of an xpack when no one has the best gear yet.
(3) World PvP is a disgrace; it has been since classic and has only gotten worse over time not better. Guards respawn too quickly, it should be possible to control enemy towns and cities requiring players to take it back. The rulers of a faction capital and the underbosses of towns should have selections of class abilities and be challenging and fun; they should drop meaningful gold and loot and give honour. On PvP realms, players should spawn at the gy as they do in BGs and should be able to choose what gy they want to rez from. Lowbies who get caught in the crossfire on PvP realms shouldn’t get sympathy, it was their choice to level there. PvP should be anything goes servers, where all PvP is permitted, even killing levellers and lowbies. And in fact, killing lowbies would be a wonderful way of enraging people and seeding world combat.
(4) Crafters should be given the chance to make pvp items for all level ranges. But particularly at max level, when a new tier comes out, not only should the blue pvp items have their stats adjusted up, but there should be similar alternatives to the current level of welfare epics crafted by professions. There is too much gear provided by stupid NPCs in return for grinding whatever currency. It is unfair to professions, the economy is there to help people trade stuff and make money so they can participate and Blizz sees fit to bypass it everywhere you look. BoAs, Bags of spoils, honour system, conquest system, guild rewards, justice system….how many systems do we need to bypass the game economy, it’s ridiculous? Even the latest pve patterns, the bracer was almost useless because the cost of crafting mats was so much higher than the value of points to buy the badge version. Terrible decisions on your part Blizz.
Edited by Oonkiss on 7/15/2012 1:41 AM PDT
(1) The decision to phase out PvP zones like TB is a good move for reasons outlined above.
(2) Rolling out DotA and Murderball game style is worth doing, at least to inject something new into this slowly dying game. BGs are good enough, no matter that WSG and AB and AV are the same things we’ve had since Classic; but having new maps based around different objectives/mechanics is worth the effort. Even if these styles turn out badly, at least you can say you tried.
(3) I am on the fence about the new talents, I understand the arguments and the philosophy, but my advice is heed the community and remember the lessons of the past. The community knew how to fix Lightwell for example, and Blizz persevered with its own ideas first which failed…then ultimately accepted most of the community’s suggestions and fixed it…but it took from Classic to end of Wrath. Blizz has a real problem letting go of control, but sometimes it’s the best thing...remember Marsellus Wallace from Pulp Fiction: “...there will be a sting, that’s just your pride f***in witchu”. If you think you’ve gotten rid of cookie cutter specs with what you’ve done, think again. How many talent selections have to be removed before its dumbed down enough that there’s no one best cookie cutter answer? The answer is, so long as theres a choice, there will be a best choice, it’s a no win situation for you Blizz. It’s better to be guided by an outcome like ‘fun’ not some mathematically based spreadsheet.
Edited by Oonkiss on 7/15/2012 1:42 AM PDT
What are your biggest PVP related quality of life issues? (Things that are an inconvenience but don't significantly affect game play or balance)
Edited by Mauklindaufe on 7/15/2012 9:37 AM PDT
How about the suggestions in this thread actually being considered before MoP releases so we have an idea as to what we will be buying come the next expansion. So were being told yet again to wait for MoP, which will definitely be a rushed release, and again we will probably sit through months of end game content with nothing but botters and arena carry teams to go against.
I am at the point where I just log onto the server and get killed. On Mal'Ganis, it is 97% Horde, but they want to charge me $50 to move my two characters to another server. I bought the original game ($40), burning crusade ($40), lich king ($40), cataclysm ($40), Diablo 2 ($40 way back in the early 2000's), Diablo 3 ($60), and then another for my wife ($60). Then add $15 a month for 4 years on top of that. When I called them, they told me "I am sorry, our DEVELOPERS don't want to change anyone from an UNBALANCED server. So.... they lost how many subscribers in the last year.... hmmmm.... they won't support the people that actually play the game? I am a developer (web, but 17 years experience) and always aim to please my customers. How about you Blizzard? Currently I can't even !@#$ing play the game I am paying monthly for - see the issue? Can a brother get some help here? Why the hell would I ever renew with you after my contract is up? Please help re-balance the servers, or offer free character moves. If people want to be on an all Horde/Alliance server... great, but I would prefer the balance restored.
Eldacar, great post my old friend. Glad you decided to role Horde! :) (I'm sure that was a while ago..)
I don't know what the solution is.. But I agree that crowd control in PvP is an issue. While crowd control is a very important and necessary part of PvP, it should be a cherished spell to use in PvP. Not something you can spam. That when used correctly makes others nod their heads in approval, not shrug their shoulders.
I've seen a few posts that speak to earning money/gold in PvP. I love this idea. It's terribly hard to keep a bank account balanced when you love to pvp. It's been this way since classic, when making a classic rank players had to quit pvping for a few days to farm enough gold to buy their items. This still seems to be an issue that I would love to see reversed.
Also, resilience in general seems to be an issue to me. First, I don't think resilience should work out side of a battleground. Why should someone questing / pve'ing in the world with pve gear be at a disadvantage to a ganker with pvp gear on? I see the use of resilience as being a positive one in pvp situations but it can create some imbalances in the world out side of BGs. (Please forgive me if this isn't the case, I have not played much since classic and am still catching up to the changes.)
I don't like that someone with all heroic Dragon Soul gear is at a significant disadvantage to someone in full cataclysmic pvp gear. But I also didn't like the days when someone with alot of classic NAX gear could easily dispatch a rank 14.
So, I would suggest that PvP gear be instance enabled "rankish" based gear. In other words I think it would be nice to see the lowest tier pvp gear be automatically equipped (or pvp stats enabled) to players upon entry to a BG. Then based upon performance that gear can be improved. This would prevent the disparity in world pvp and pve gear in BGs a non issue. PvP should be skill based imo and a somewhat level playing field with gear might be a step in the right direction...
Cataclysm pvp has been awesome for the most part. Balancing 10 classes is no joke, and making them all viable right now is unprecedented. awesome job by blizzard.
A few things that could be an improvement in random bgs are the time limit and Flag carrying debuff. Sometimes im in an epic game all depending on who gets into the best position to get the flag return in WSG and there is so much fighting and smashing going on and then the timer runs out. I would like a longer wsg and twin peaks. When 2 teams at equal skill/gear level get in there, it can lead to an insane game that always gets ruined by the timer. Also the debuff gained from carrying a flag is a bit extreme. That is some teams strat, to hold the flag as long as possible and it just can't be done with the debuff.
The most awesome part of Cataclysm bg pvp is the terrain. The terrain in Twin Peaks and Battle for gilneas is awesome! All the little rocks and stumps and buildings and ledges in those BGs can really make for an epic experience as a ranged dps, kiting like a boss.
Blizzard you made the right choice by only adding 10 player bgs. I think 10 or 40 player bgs are the best size. In 15 player bgs it is EXTREMELY hard to get 15 players to decide on 1 strat and go with it, everyone wants to go to different bases in EOTS and AB and no one will give in and just do what other players want. In 10 player bg every single person makes such a big difference that i really enjoy those bgs . i can single handedly be the deciding factor if we win or lose which is awesome. and 40m bgs always have kids that just want to ignore mechanics and just pvp, which is what i want.
Edited by Lukenukem on 7/27/2012 6:19 AM PDT
When the TB tweaks were done, TB has been a great battlemap, lots of fun and good honor even if you lose.
Honor is not a huge grind now, especially for us casuals that like to use the PvP gear in normal PvE situations. Otherwise we'd be buying high priced items off the AH or begging to get into raids.
XP is still good a a handful of maps.
The two new maps, cheap rehashes of old maps.
80-84 Isle has never been fixed, whoever gets the Siege camps GYs and wins. Rarely is the game ever won because of a boss kill, because they still hit too damn hard.
XP on/off exploits at low levels is still allowed to go on.
Wintergrasp, one of the most fun places at level 80, has never been scaled up. Yesterday was the most embarrassing game ever. We were attacking, (four 85s, the most horde I've seen in one WG), two level 80s were able to defend the keep by killing all tanks easily and quickly. When your faction is outnumbered like it is on Icecrown, it will take months for any new character to hit 100 wins for the achievement). If you have 1-2 85s defending, it's nigh impossible to win attacking. I can send in my pet only and it will destroy tanks in seconds.
Wintergrasp also needs a staggered start time. I don't know if it's the same way on all servers, but on ours it usually starts a long time before TB is over. Several times I've gone straight to WG after TB was over only to see 3 towers down. That's one reason why people don't join.
Otherwise I'd have the often complained about hunters/rogues (but they always have been overpowered compared to others) in low levels, and healers (now) at higher levels.
I'm super late to the game, but I'm throwing in some PvP feedback.
I've been saying this for a long time now (god, maybe 5 years?) and it's gotten mixed responses, but I'll repeat it again for the purposes of this thread.
The PvP gear grind has got to go. Everybody should be on an equal gear playing field when it comes to PvP so skill and class balance are the deciding factors in PvP. This removes an element from the equation, hopefully allowing Blizzard to focus on the class balance side so that ultimately, skill is the deciding factor.
A lot of people will argue that this is an MMO and that a gear grind is both implied and expected. I disagree with this, there's nothing in the MMO hand-book that says we must grind for gear to be able to play the game. Many other games are trying a new approach, WoW could easily be one of these games too. Bear in mind that there are other things that can be obtained via a grind. Rewards such as vanity items, pets, mounts, and titles can still be available. PvP should be about the competition. Going in and playing because you enjoy it, because you want to test yourself against others, and/or because you're just a firm believer of red==dead.
Here are some arguments for why the gear grind should be removed, based on things I've experienced in Cataclysm (and WotLK, TBC, and Vanilla really):
Now, I know that Blizzard is planning some changes in MoP that will partially address this. Players will be getting a base resilience and PvP gear will improve this, but the hope is that players will be able to at least feel like they can participate. This is a start, but people will still be grinding gear and all of the above points will still occur. I'm also concerned that once people are geared up in PvP gear, those without it will still be at a significant disadvantage.
There's my feedback... on page 56 I'm not sure it will be seen, but there it is none-the-less.
Thanks for reading! :)
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