World of Warcraft™

Title says it all, just curious why Paladins remain the only melee class without a baseline gap closing model?

Without talenting into LAotL or something like Speed of Light, all Paladins can do to close gaps is basically run at 100% movement speed (we have to talent for the 15% increase too). Furthermore, this gap closing model doesn't even work without something like AoS Cleanse spamming in a PvP environment as they are easily suppressed by the most common offensive utility in the game, the snare.

When you consider that, the Lv15 talent tier seems a bit unfair to Paladins because all it does is give the gap closers we don't have baseline like other melee, whereas many other melee mobility tiers let them focus on improving their already established gap closers like in the case of Warriors' Warbringer, Juggernaut talents. Other classes have gap closers they only can access thru talents too, but again, all of these classes have a baseline gap closer ability for the melee DPS spec/s whereas Paladins can just run at the standard movement speed because all our gap closers are talented.

Wouldn't it make more sense to implement baseline gap closing models that pertain to specific Paladin specs, like say Retribution gets something like Speed of Light as an instant gap closer while Holy and Protection get something like Blazing Light which functions as a CD Sprint?

This way, we could truely make the Lv15 mobility talents choices by implementing different talents that would affect the preexisting gap closer talents differently instead of just having gap closers like LAotL ALWAYS taken by Ret because the others don't work as well in comparison and then HAVE to take talents like AoS because without it LAotL wouldn't work in a PvP environment.

Just seems overly complicated and very inefficient this way when baseline gap closers would allow more imagination to be injected into the mobility tier for Paladins as well as doing something original with the Lv75 tier so that it's sole reason for existence wont be to simply be a crutch to underpowered and clunky talented gap closers from the Lv15 tier.

Agree.

Another issue with the current mobility model is that we get two spells that we have to spam in conjunction to get anywhere, cleanse to remove snare and judgement to catch up while snares are being applied either with one GCD, no GCD or automatically like frost armor, poisons and auto attack.

Thus we are already losing that battle.

Problem #2 is that we need tier to play catch up and tier 75 to give tier 15 a chance to play catch up. So we waste two tiers to have a crappy way to get to targets.

Another big issue I see is even if Tier 15 talents are made greatly effective for Retribution as a gap-closing tool, guess what other spec has access to them? Holy. And guess what spec should not have mobility equal to that of their melee DPS counterpart? Holy.

If Holy has equal access to 100% of all mobility tools accessible to Retribution, this means that they'll need to balance around both specs' potential mobility. Either Retribution's mobility ends up being very poor or Holy's mobility ends up being excessive.

Retribution needs a specialization ability that increases their mobility in some way, or else it'll be nigh-impossible to balance both specs (Ret and Holy) in PvP.

They just need to make specific talents and/or spells that different effects depending on spec.

Like the was AW talent is now and speed of light.

Why would paladins have to evolve that "gap closer" as fast or faster than other melee classes? They have other utilities that other melee classes don't. They have heals, and at top level they will be balanced anyway. I think asking for total equality throughout the whole leveling process is way too much to ask for. I think paladins will be just fine with all those movement speed buffs and HoF.

What ret needs is something akin to what shaman are getting with 'improved ghost wolf' that makes them immune to moment impairing effects under x circumstances. As such ret should get something like making it that HoF is indispensable when cast SPECIFICALLY on themselves.

That paired with Veneration, Burden of Guilt, or Fist of Justice and any Teir 1 talent would give ret some very strong gap closing without having the absolute homogenization that would be yet another insta close for melee.

Don't get me wrong, I have played ret and I know what you mean when you say it needs something because I agree... but I don't want to see every melee in the game use the exact same tactic of 'Charge, snare, stun...' It's old already when the only difference is the speed of the attacks and the 'graphic' of the swings.

You guys are neglecting two things, there is very little chance for hof to be undispellable even on the pally, and the fact that in mop hof has a 6 sec durations and a 25 sec cooldown, not the 10 sec duration 20 sec cooldown we could achieve via talents in cata.

The problem with hof vs charge is the time it takes to get to the target they will be able to get that heal off, or that frostbolt or that fear or that poly. Making the whole dance pointless for the pally. If a Mage casts poly the death knight grips him, problem averted, he's in his face, doing damage with the option to interrupt.

There is very little skill involved in normal speed forward running while the skill of melee classes often lies in how they use their gap closers.

There is very little skill involved in normal speed forward running while the skill of melee classes often lies in how they use their gap closers.

This is kind of the issue. A Warrior who charges at a bad time is going to perform poorly, and entirely through his own errors. But what else can you do with Hand of Freedom besides run at your opponent? Remember, we're talking baseline; even though it's about as conceptually crappy as Paladins' gap closing, even Shaman get Ghost Wolf as a baseline spell.

@ the heals mage: Ret's losing even more healing capability in MoP.

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P.S. You are getting a frost shock worthy talent effecting judgement. :)

Oh, so what this post is saying is "baseline gap closers" "baseline gap closers" "baseline gap closers" "baseline gap closers" "baseline gap closers" "baseline gap closers" "baseline gap closers" "baseline gap closers" "baseline gap closers" "baseline gap closers" "baseline gap closers" "baseline gap closers" "baseline gap closers" "baseline gap closers" "baseline gap closers" "baseline gap closers" "baseline gap closers" "baseline gap closers" "baseline gap closers"? what a splendid idea!

P.S. You are getting a frost shock worthy talent effecting judgement. :)

Step 1: Try reading.

Step 2: Imagine having to take both Ghost Wolf and Frost Shock as talent points.

Step 3: Apply critical thinking skills.

N-O, no.

All the other classes have ability X, why doesn't mine?

You are part of the reason Blizzard has homogenized the classes so much over the years. Balancing does not mean giving everyone every ability.

All the other caster DPS classes can heal a little every couple of seconds if they want, why can't mages? Please fix this!....No, mages have other abilities that warlocks, priests, shaman, and moonkin don't have. That is one of the ways playing a mage is different from those classes.

All the other classes in the game have an interrupt, why can't priests? Please fix this!...No, priests have a combination of abilities that no other classes have. That is one of the ways playing a priest is different from those classes.

I could continue, but hopefully you get the point.

You are part of the reason Blizzard has homogenized the classes so much over the years. Balancing does not mean giving everyone every ability.

I'll await your anti-homogenization comments with regards to Throwdown and Avatar.

02/01/2012 12:51 AMPosted by Jellex

You are part of the reason Blizzard has homogenized the classes so much over the years. Balancing does not mean giving everyone every ability.

I'll await your anti-homogenization comments with regards to Throwdown and Avatar.

What do you mean?

He's referencing the fact that warriors are getting what is essentially a combination of HoF and AW without the ability to be dispelled, but not the fact that the buff only lasts for 10 seconds.

That said, warriors are getting AW and HoF on a 2 minute CD for 10 seconds.

02/01/2012 12:59 AMPosted by Entropy

What do you mean?

When Warriors got a controlled stun, no one complained that they were getting Hammer of Justice or Kidney Shot. Likewise, the new Avatar ability is essentially Avenging Wrath combined with Hand of Freedom, not dispellable and on a shorter cooldown. My point is that people only start crying "homogenization" when it's Paladins that want something. Moreover, Warlocks are going to essentially be able to talent into Divine Shield with a fraction of the penalty. These abilities are iconic, not generic, and no one so much as raises a peep when they're copied to other classes.

He's referencing the fact that warriors are getting what is essentially a combination of HoF and AW without the ability to be dispelled, but not the fact that the buff only lasts for 10 seconds.

That said, warriors are getting AW and HoF on a 2 minute CD for 10 seconds.

There's a problem with your comparison. That problem is that not only is Avatar on a ONE minute CD, not two, Avenging Wrath no longer has any talent to reduce its cooldown, and is actually a three minute cooldown baseline. Yes, its damage effect is not as high as AW's, 10% to 20%, but it is not dispellable and its uptime is superior. That more than makes up for its lower damage buff.

Ok, well I'm not a big fan of that either. I've played this game for a long time and I do like change. I'm not one of those "Vanilla was better" people. Vanilla sucked compared to what we have now. I have seen the game change for the better in SOOO many ways! It's much more convenient to use the auction house, to find dungeon groups, to queue for battlegrounds, etc.

Balance is crucial to a game with multiple classes. However, I don't think balance means giving out the same ability from one class to another, but calling it something different and giving it a pretty animation. To me, it seems like a cop-out.

Example...Something I don't like is that every class has a way to heal themselves now. Mages have a way to heal themselves, a channeled ability that has a decently long cooldown, and heals 40% of hp if fully channeled. I don't even want this. Part of playing a mage is escaping damage, CC'ing people, absorbing it with your shields. Mages should not have a heal.

Don't feel so paranoid about paladins. I have a pally and I don't like what is happening there either. I liked the big casted heals as a holy paladin, you had to play well to avoid interrupts and you saw big numbers. Now, pallies are just insta-healing left and right. I also liked stacking intellect and having more mana than anyone else. This was slightly OP and how did Blizzard fix it? Give all healers about the same amount of mana! Boring...and now when I play my priest I don't feel different enough from my paladin.

Also, bubble has been doled out to other classes. The ability to go immune to damage is great. How did Blizzard balance this? Give hunters deterrence, give DKs AMS, let priests dispel bubble. Again, boring.

There are many examples of this in game. It takes away from the uniqueness of your class, sometimes good and sometimes bad. Just remember, every time your class gains something good that another class already had, it's bad for those classes. In the end, it's bad for everyone in my opinion.

Ok, well I'm not a big fan of that either. I've played this game for a long time and I do like change. I'm not one of those "Vanilla was better" people. Vanilla sucked compared to what we have now. I have seen the game change for the better in SOOO many ways! It's much more convenient to use the auction house, to find dungeon groups, to queue for battlegrounds, etc.

Balance is crucial to a game with multiple classes. However, I don't think balance means giving out the same ability from one class to another, but calling it something different and giving it a pretty animation. To me, it seems like a cop-out.

Example...Something I don't like is that every class has a way to heal themselves now. Mages have a way to heal themselves, a channeled ability that has a decently long cooldown, and heals 40% of hp if fully channeled. I don't even want this. Part of playing a mage is escaping damage, CC'ing people, absorbing it with your shields. Mages should not have a heal.

Don't feel so paranoid about paladins. I have a pally and I don't like what is happening there either. I liked the big casted heals as a holy paladin, you had to play well to avoid interrupts and you saw big numbers. Now, pallies are just insta-healing left and right. I also liked stacking intellect and having more mana than anyone else. This was slightly OP and how did Blizzard fix it? Give all healers about the same amount of mana! Boring...and now when I play my priest I don't feel different enough from my paladin.

Also, bubble has been doled out to other classes. The ability to go immune to damage is great. How did Blizzard balance this? Give hunters deterrence, give DKs AMS, let priests dispel bubble. Again, boring.

There are many examples of this in game. It takes away from the uniqueness of your class, sometimes good and sometimes bad. Just remember, every time your class gains something good that another class already had, it's bad for those classes. In the end, it's bad for everyone in my opinion.

All that's being asked for is a better gap closer model than one that takes up two talent tiers that should allow us to make an interesting choice, and even then requires spamming one ability in the hope that it allows us to eventually catch whoever we're chasing.

There are many examples of this in game. It takes away from the uniqueness of your class, sometimes good and sometimes bad. Just remember, every time your class gains something good that another class already had, it's bad for those classes. In the end, it's bad for everyone in my opinion.

There is good and bad homogenization, I think. Which is what is down to your own personal opinion, but the matters that Blizz has given in on tend to be concepts that are already widespread. For example, would you argue that it would have been better to not allow Feral and Retribution to have interrupts? Allowing Blizzard to assume that all melee can interrupt allows them to design fights that require interrupts, and not fights where you're boned if you have the "wrong" melee.

A lot of us feel that working gap closer mechanics - maybe not Charge, but something stronger than Long Arm - is in the vein of things that need to be given out. If this game's melee vs. ranged equation consisted mostly of snares and snare removal, then I agree that Paladins would be in good shape, but instant gap openers have proliferated amongst range, with even more being given out, and so what we ask is to keep up in the race, rather than be left behind in the name of "uniqueness".

Well on a side note with the exception of something like a mage you are not going to be to terrible on that I don't think. Start the fight, hit veneration for a 6 second immunity to movement impairing effects, LatL + Burden of Guilt = an overall 95% increase speed with gap closing (50% loss for them and a 45% gain for you).

Once you get there (or within 10 yards) you still get to slam them with hammer and stun them so you can beat on them. Also, you keep noting paladin being left out of this mechanic when shaman are as well. Their ghost wolf increases movement speed and makes them immune to movement impairing effects, but is no longer instant cast so they have to be allowed to get into it.

Further with Veneration you get a second HoF once every 30 seconds and potentially one that isn't dispellable. Now Seal of Justice could stand to receive a buff to increase it's effectiveness a bit... but I think the first thing the really needs to be done is that about 2/3 of the snares/roots/immobilization needs to be cut from the game and ALL of the passive ones definitely need to go. It would certainly make the game easier to balance if not everyone and their dog was wondering where the slows were coming from in their arena teams.

Also as this is almost entirely a PvP complaint, CC as a whole needs to be put on a single DR timer rather than 1 DR for fear, 1 for stun, 1 for silence, 1 for...

02/01/2012 03:25 AMPosted by Myd

Further with Veneration you get a second HoF once every 30 seconds and potentially one that isn't dispellable. Now Seal of Justice could stand to receive a buff to increase it's effectiveness a bit... but I think the first thing the really needs to be done is that about 2/3 of the snares/roots/immobilization needs to be cut from the game and ALL of the passive ones definitely need to go. It would certainly make the game easier to balance if not everyone and their dog was wondering where the slows were coming from in their arena teams.

Actually, Paladins would be in much better shape if it was just snares and roots. What gives us so much trouble is CC and instant gap openers - Demonic Portal, Thunderstorm, Disengage, Blink, soon to be Wild Charge, and so on. Another point is that, while Veneration looks good, the spell costs 65% of mana - there's no way we could support using it for too long.