Topic
Frustrating female guildie/raider
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I'm an officer in a 10man progression raiding guild. A month or so ago we acquired a female healer who was clearly young (my guess is 17), kind of flirtatious but nothing too overt at that time. She took a 2 week break from raiding and we found someone to replace her.
I play a healer as my main and this week she returned and wants to raid again. My raid leader was anxious to fill the group and brought her, even though we're overstaffed on healers. He asked me to switch to my rogue for DPS which was out of the ordinary (he never let me DPS before even when I requested to, or pointed out how it'd make more sense. I'm also the most experienced healer in guild. I hesitate to say best but my co-raiders would not). Anyway, the female healer in question really irks me. Tonight was one of the worst experiences raiding I've ever had with my guild, to the point where I have decided to decline raiding tomorrow (I haven't missed a raid since we started raiding DS). She has really ramped up her ... flirtation. It's become obvious to me she is fixating on attaining the affection of our GM/RL. She doesn't really socialize with anyone else in guild, constantly addresses the GM only and has said a few things in guild chat that I've found just... inappropriate, awkward and attention-seeking. I would not care if these things were taken to private chat but to see it all unfold in /gchat is very irritating. For example, she talks about still being a virgin in guild chat, complains about guys who like her but she doesn't like back, and just today she credited herself with the departure of a few of our former members because the guys [who gquit] "felt she wasn't being treated right." Then mused on how "impressive" that was. Not really why they left but that's aside the point; they also left well over a month ago so how it was relevant to bring up I have no idea. During raids, I feel she is just there to chat and garner more [strictly male] attention. I know that's a hard thing to prove but I'm certain of it. She plays horribly, makes mistakes repeatedly, and cannot compete as a healer. She made several inappropriate, overtly sexual and attention-seeking comments in raid, e.g. mentioning how she was offered 45kg by someone on WoW to flash her boobs, discussed her breast size in raid and managed to conjure up whatever sexual innuendo she could. She doesn't have a competitive DPS spec either, so we're 3 healing things that should be 2-healed. The other fold to this problem is that most of the guys in the raid do not have a problem with any of this, particularly the GM/RL. They even encourage it. If this was a male player under-performing he'd have had his !@# handed to him by now but since it's a female who is willing to behave like this, it's tolerated. I have been in raids with a few other female players but I've never met one this grating or fulfilling so many stereotypes about female players at once. (She's not the only female we raid with.) I'm not a prude, I've listened to a few amusing sexual/flirty conversations in vent but it's usually short-lived and during downtime and when it's time to fight a boss or discuss strategy, it's game-face time. I'm angry for a lot of reasons. The problem isn't just this girl or that she's tolerated. I'm irritated that I'm relegated to DPS just because this bad player wants back into raids. I'm irritated that I'm expected to be prepared to bring two separate, raid-worthy chars to raids. For instance I got saved to a heroic boss on my healer and had to bring my DPS to normal modes. It's a lot of responsibility and stress and mostly I'm (was?) happy that I'm trusted to do that but part of me is pissed that so many raiders (particularly the healers) don't even have a competitive OS and that's just tolerated. I'm also frustrated that I can't approach the GM with any of these issues. He has a stake in letting this bad female raider into raids, in fact most of the male raiders do. I am pretty sure I'd just be accused of being jealous or bitter or something that I'm not getting any attention (because without a male's attention in an MMoRPG I'd wither away and die, clearly). I am also female, and my boyfriend raids with me in the same raid group. He also plays a healer. I'm also frustrated because healing is what I love to do but at the same time, I don't want to demand any of the other healers get benched. Frankly the bad female healer needs to be benched but I don't see that happening since she has such appeal to the guys. As for the other healers, they are decent and have earned the spots they have now. It's so strange, I feel like in one week I went from loving raiding and loving my guild to suddenly hating both and also after months of dedication, not actually having a place in raids anymore. |
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Edited by Nywik on 2/9/12 2:39 AM (PST)
I went over the char limit clearly.
So tomorrow I won't be raiding. I'm not the type of raider who stamps their feet and insists everything should be exactly like I expect it to be or else I won't raid. But seriously the thought of raiding in that environment, with the presence that that player brings... it's just not something I can deal with again, not that soon anyway. And there's nothing to be done about it. I have this feeling that the player in question will just generally lose interest and take another break or something, and it's just up to me to weather her presence in raids/guild again. I'm not interested in changing guilds or servers or anything, there's nothing alluring to me really about raiding DS purely for loots. I was genuinely having a good time in my otherwise awesome, competitive guild and liked being there for the people. I just happened to see those people's worst sides tonight. I didn't mention in my original post that we had another guest female raider in the same raid. She's an awesome player. She's also only 16 and it was awkward as well. Particularly because some [males] grilled her about her appearance/sound of her voice, where she lived, etc. And she was indulgent and also fed off their interest although to a lesser degree. What also grosses me out is that a lot of our male members are older than her. I feel like phasing myself out of this guild, since I'm already pretty burned out. Missing two raid nights seems like a good start, albeit it's passive aggressive on my part. They don't know that I'm taking my boyfriend with me (we share the same disgust and irritation) in my absences. Not sure what I'm asking. How do you handle toxic presences in guilds/raids even though you're the only sane person with a problem? How should I properly phase myself out of this guild if I want to take that route? How do you particularly phase yourself out as an officer, when it seems like saying, "Hey I don't want to be an officer anymore" feels like it will cause a drama sh*t storm? Or how do you weather bad things that you know will pass in a guild you otherwise enjoy? Anything relevant is welcome, stories, etc! Thanks! |
Aside from leaving the guild and joining a raid group that doesn't allow bad players spots or inappropriate conduct, you confront them. The chick in question and/or the RL. You can say you don't want to be an officer anymore without causing a !@#$storm pretty easily. "Hey Bob(GM), I'd like to step down from being an officer. I have too much going on in real life to handle the responsibilities properly but I can and would like to continue being an active member." Short, sweet, to the point. Avoids confronting anybody, and doesn't offend. Side note. I actually left a guild because a female healer joined and was promoted past myself and others who'd consistently been raiding with dedication and skill for the entire tier. She was also annoying, loud, and generally obnoxious. I didn't like her when I first talked to her, but she never ever did anything to change my first impression. I hope things work out one way or the other for you. |
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Edited by Katalya on 2/9/12 4:05 AM (PST)
If the guild leader and raid leader are okay with an environment you're not having fun in, the best recourse is to leave. Let them know that you're looking for a different kind of raid environment, apologize and leave. A lot of guilds could use good healers.
If you really don't want to leave, request to talk with the raid leader privately and bring some logs with you. Say something like, "I've noticed the quality of the healing in our raids has gone down," and present the logs as evidence. Maybe have your boyfriend there as well, and emphasize that your core interest is in improving raid performance. Your opinions, as healers with good track records (and as an officer, in your case), should carry some weight. For that matter, have you talked with this girl one-on-one? A younger girl might think that this sort of behavior is cute, not irritating, or that it's required of her for some reason. You might be able to get her to understand how she comes off to others when she acts that way. And maybe, just maybe, you can help her be a better healer. ^_~ You may have a more uphill battle dealing with the attitude of the men who encourage this behavior though. The quickest and easiest option is leaving the guild, but if you feel like doing some work to stay there, that's what I'd suggest. |
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First, a question - how does your boyfriend, who's also part of the healer team, feel about this girl and her impact on the raid?
This might go against the grain - but if he's as annoyed by her skill at flirtation excelling over her skill at raiding - have him bring it up, nicely, to the RL. Something like "Hey Joe, I've been meaning to ask you something. Got a minute for a private chat?" and then just tell him "I didn't want to say anything, but we're really struggling more as a healing team without Nyk. I know you like Bambi (for want of a better name), and hey, I'm taken but not dead, so I see why a lot of the guys enjoy having her around - but seriously dude, we'd never have shuffled a guy in after a two week break on two heal fights, or been willing to wipe for one - why are we doing it for her? As a raider, it really bothers me, because I know if I was gone for a few weeks, I'd have to hope a spot was open or bring a viable dps spec." See what the RL says. If the RL and/or GL are openly defensive, you may be stuck either sticking it out for the current xpac or biting the bullet and finding a new guild. On the bright side, with end of xpac burnout, a lot of guilds are looking for quality raiders, especially healers and tanks! (side note, as another female raider, behavior like that I also find excessively annoying and irritating, because it gives credence to the stereotype we're already up against.) |
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Edited by Malorei on 2/9/12 7:01 AM (PST)
I must say that I would begin looking for a new guild and team to raid with if I were in your position.
One reason to move, if it were me, is that the GM and RL are unapproachable when issues arise. If you can't talk to them about things that are bothering you without feeling like they would ignore your concerns, that is another issue entirely. No matter what your concerns are, you should be able to bring them to the attention of your leaders and expect that they will be addressed in some way (even if it isn't the way you'd prefer). The main reason I would be moving along, however, is...As a female raider myself, I have serious issues with "girls" who foster the prevailing stereotype we face everyday. I also have issues with "girls" who use their gender to "get-ahead", so to speak, and men who foam at the mouth over them. But that is another matter really. On the other hand, and to keep in line with your statements that you honestly like the guild and team other than this one person, you are more than likely correct. At some point the "attention" she is currently getting will waiver and she will move along on her own to more attentive pastures. Your choices are fairly clear...stick it out and wait for her to leave on her own or find a new place to call home. Remember, while you are deciding, that by deciding to not raid while all this is going on you are not just rebeling against your GL and RL, you are also letting down the other members of your team. If you are going to stay and see how it plays out, you should either talk to your GL & RL (without giving specific's about the player you are refering to) and let them know that you will no longer be able to raid because of RL interferences and that you need to step down from your officer position for now. Simply bailing on your team makes you no better than the person who is causing the problems in the first place. As a side note, have you considered talking to the other raiders in your team and seeing how they feel about this healer? Have you and your boyfriend talked about these things and does he see the same issues? Maybe, if everyone sees this healer as a disruptive force in your raids, you can all go to the GL & RL together to talk about what is going on. You would have to make sure it didn't seem like a "hostile take-over", but if done in a diplomatic and professional manner and if everyone sees this person as an issue in raids it may help your leadership see things from a different point of view. Don't go in with "she's too flirty and distracting", address the real raiding issues which are her level of skill and constant mistakes that hinder progression. |
So far you have not been happy doing what you have been told to do without saying anything to the guild leader. If you just stop raiding your still going to feel that weight of unhappyness. My advice: I would strongly encourage you to go to the GM outside of raid time and tell them: I don't want to DPS, I'm a healer and one of the best ones in the guild. So I'm asking to be put back in to my original role. Let them GL figure out what he wants to do with his in guild flirt. And it is his person to deal with, not have other guild members find a way to keep that entertainment in the guild. If the GL does not put you back in to place, you have said your peace, spoke the truth about the main issue and long term you will know you told them the straight truth and probably will feel better for at least getting out that major point. I would caution on what you say about being bothered by the person being a flirt. It sounds a bit like your making a judgement on something others may enjoy. I'm not saying it is not annoying, oh it sure can be. But if you address the main issue (being replaced in you role by the flirt) then the GL will have to deal with the other aspect of choosing his flirt of a good healer. If you do plan to leave the guild, my suggestion is you take a break from the game for a period of time. This situation has left you sour and you should not expect the sun to shine and the birds to sing the next day. Take a real break, don't log on hardly at all. Re-engergize yourself, even if it takes a few weeks. Then decide if/when you want to go back and find a place that is a good fit. |
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Agree with what others are saying, I'd address the healing issue over the flirtation issue. It really just sounds like she's using the fact that she's female to get attention, get a raid spot, and get who knows what else. I've been in guilds in the past with females who acted like this, once the guys realized how annoying said females were being they eventually ignored her and then the females left for another guild :P
As a female myself I hate when other girls act like this in the game, it's just pointless and stupid but it's even more annoying how encouraged such a behavior is. Anyways, if talking about the situation solves nothing I'd slowly phase myself out of the guild and try to find another one. But I would def talk to the GM or at least someone before you make your final decision and see if it can't be resolved. |
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It's clear that this player is toxic to your guild. You need to stand up for yourself, first of all. You don't have to play on your rogue if you want to heal. Second, you need to make it clear that you won't raid with anyone who is incompetent and drags the guild down (no need to address her personality). Third, you should leave the guild if things aren't changed to your liking. There are plenty of guilds out there that will let you enjoy the game again, so no need to put up with something that you can't tolerate.
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Go to your GM have a calm reasoned discussion about your concerns. It sounds as if you have earned the right to speak up so do so. If your GM is reasonably fair minded he will do the right thing. If not then maybe it is time to look for new horizons. As a GM I would hope that you would come to me and give me an opportunity to do the right thing for you.
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If I were you I'd look for another guild because your guild claims to be a progression guild but your GM is unable to make the decisions needed to progress, such as taking his best players to a raid.
One thing that stood out to me though is that you wrote one sentence about how she was bad and the rest was complaining about her flirtatiousness. It seems to me that's what is really bothering you. No doubt it might be annoying, but another thing about raiding progression is that you often have to raid with people who annoy you in order to get the job done. I'm not saying you are jealous of the attention she's getting (as a female raider, I can say that I'm genuinely happier when I'm not getting constant unwanted sexual attention) but the way you are coming across is mostly focusing on what is wrong with her as a person rather than what is wrong with her as a raider. If you could write as many paragraphs about her healing skill, awareness, cd usage, etc and not mention a single thing about her flirtatiousness, I suggest you discuss this with your GM before leaving and see if you can actually demonstrate why she shouldn't be healing. Maybe he will see your point of view. But I'm pretty sure you'll get absolutely nowhere just complaining about her personality...and with good reason. Her personality doesn't matter if she has enough skill to compensate for it. And if she doesn't, then you need to focus on her lack of skill rather than her annoying personality. |
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Edited by Concealment on 2/9/12 7:40 PM (PST)
If you are truly in a good guild, with tons of great leaders the best thing you can do is bring this up to them. If you do not like the response, or feel that it isn't something you want to be apart of, then you simply shouldn't.
People seem to forget that raiding is about the challenge, fun, and experience. If one of those 3 don't line up with your guild, you can always find another. Lots of good guilds constantly look for healers. Leadership has its faults, and good leaders know when they have done wrong/made a mistake. Nobody is perfect, being a good leader means to learn from mistakes. Bring it up. If it goes south, then it wasn't worth your time. |
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It sounds as if much of this lies with how your guild reacts to these girls.
If you don't feel comfortable with the atmosphere and don't think that you can bring this up without causing drama then I am sorry to say that my suggestion is to find a place where you won't have to deal with this. If there is a number of male raiders who want to act that way towards female raiders and the female raiders are happy to play back (vice versa) then your chances of being able to stop it are slim. |
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I didn't know that females like this existed, and I'm a raiding female. OMG Vince, I ran into one of these once. She was a big reason why I left the guild I was in through most of BC and Wrath. Now she was actually a good player. I'll give her that. But whenever she was online, it was all about her. About her body, about her sex life, off-color jokes. Random sex jokes from the guys with her as the object. Everything she said because a double-entendre. Instead of "that's what she said" it would become "that's what [player] said". I tried being friends with her, and she was a pretty nice person, but I just couldn't take the atmosphere anymore. And yeah, I felt that with her around, I didn't get any attention. By which I mean, I would say something and it would be completely ignored, because the other girl had just typed something or said something or done some emote and we must make a sexual comment about it. The guys in the guild were so used to it that during some of the very few times some of them would bother to socialize with me, they'd attempt to pull the same sort of things they'd do with the other girl. I ended up leaving the guild, because raids and guild chat became one long sex joke that had ceased to be funny months prior. Yes, I had done my due diligence and spoken with the raid leader (who was a friend of mine) several times that guild and raid chat made me uncomfortable. Eventually, I told the raid leader that the raid environment just wasn't enjoyable to me anymore and that I had been accepted to another guild. Honestly, players like this are toxic and are doing it on purpose. And the men who enable this type of behavior are not the type of men who would hear your concerns and say "oh hmm yes that is a well reasoned objection, I will speak to this player at once!" If you think that will happen, you're living in a dream world. If they were willing to entertain the thought that raiding with someone who's primary function is titillation may not be conducive to progression, then they would have booted her ages ago, not replaced one of their officers with her. And don't think they wouldn't do it again. Take your boyfriend and leave, find a guild with adults who get laid in real life every now and again. |
Here's the problem with 'just walking away.' It doesn't solve anything. Presumably this guild is full of people you consider friends and enjoy hanging out with. Why should you leave that behind for the unknown? Talk to you GM. If you end up causing drama and look like the bad guy, then leave. But remember, YOU aren't causing the drama. This girl and the way the raid is responding to her are whats causing the drama. There is no problem with calling drama makers out. Just don't do it in the wrong way. Do it privately. Try your best to be non-confrontational about it. No accusations. Just geniunely try to help the guild. If they respond by blowing up, brushing you off or anything else that sidesteps the issues or throws it back in your face or makes you feel uncomfortable, then consider leaving. The other possible option is they listen and fix it. But if you leave, there is only 1 reasonable outcome...the issues continue. |
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There are two issues here: how do you handle the direct problem of the female raider you don't like and the environment surrounding/enabling her, and how do you maintain your class and dignity through this. In handling the problem, I strongly advise you to be as direct with your leadership as you can be. Decide if you are definitely leaving the guild, definitely staying, or only staying conditionally. Communicate with your leadership what changes you need to be happy in guild if you are staying. If you feel you cannot be comfortable and happy in your guild, then you need to look for somewhere you can be. In maintaining your class and dignity, refusing to raid on short notice is not a mature or beneficial reaction to having a problem with the environment. You're avoiding dealing with the problem and becoming a hassle for your raid leadership and your friends in guild. Planning on removing your boyfriend with you likewise is harmful to a guild you are saying is filled with friends. If you're going to leave you need to make a clean break, while if you're staying you need to take the high road on this issue while it is being corrected.
Having such a harsh emotional reaction on a short timescale means you are probably catching your leadership unawares. They will not expect such a rapid and drastic swing. Try to think about their perspective as well while you figure out what you want to do. You're not the only sane one in the guild. |
