Dev Watercooler – The Role of Role

94 Human Death Knight
10965
02/08/2012 06:39 PMPosted by Sabatieni
I like Model One, with all specs having a place in both PVE and PVP, and players being able to play the flavor they like without having to sacrifice huge chunks of viability


I roll Unholy on my DK for PvP, just to try it. i done Forst and Blood and Unholy is a challenge. The others have their uses. Frost has insane burts damage and nice range but slow CDs, Blood has virtually no ranged capability and drops after being kited. I find unholy a bit of a challenge but it's different than the others. Never before did I pay attention to my Diseases until I changed to Unholy. Saying thers a best PvP class isn't all true. Obviously Frost Mages have a retarded advantage because 3/4 of their attacks have a slowing effect. but a Fire or Arcane that knows their chracter better CAN and WILL beat them. Some skill is involved.

In short and sweet, now we can all have self respect and play the spec we enjoy, rather than the one that's OP, like how 9 out of every 10 Mages are rolling Frost.
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90 Human Mage
13505
Model one and two seem good. Model 5 seems while change can be good what you're suggesting is going backwards. We need to go forwards. As for mages I like Arcane because I the lore of magic and the Arcane so I choose the spec. I obviously want it to do the same amount of DPS potential it can do in MoP and beyond. Balance isn't a bad thing. You can still bring depth to a class and be balanced.


It may be difficult but it's not impossible.


Can I vote for model one?Model two and three fail, dramatically, because not every player can or will play every spec, and would cause people to be "sat out" for some fights, or even an entire raid.You ask about depth and flavor... But is it "flavor" for your spec to be just plain useless for one fight, and then downright required for another (thus making some other spec useless instead)?Nobody wants to feel useless by comparison.



This
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85 Undead Warrior
5560
There is a model missing.

Model 6: Do not have multiple specs for certain classes.

There is only one rogue, hunter, warlock, mage spec. Balance that spec against the other classes.
Two warrior specs: tanking, melee dps.
Two priest specs: healing, ranged dps.
Three shaman specs: healing, melee dps, ranged dps.
Three paladin specs: healing, melee dps, tanking
Four druid specs: healing, melee dps, ranged dps, tanking

This is like Model 5, but no need to add new specs into the game to cover totally new roles. Just remove specs.

Of course, a lot of players woud howl. I don't think this would be a good solution in the current WoW. But it would get rid of the arms race between Arcane Mage and Fire Mage. There would be only Mage.

That seems like a good idea, the removal of multiple specs. However, I'd very much like to see a COMPLETE REMOVAL OF SPECS.
No, not a complete removal of roles, just not having to be locked to a single spec on a per fight basis. So, the way you use your abilities would trigger effects and transition you into a role, or you'd be able to change stances, armor spells, etc... to completely change your bars and such, effectively switching entire "specs."
This would effectively remove the chains of specs on a per-fight basis, adding complexity into the game and further rewarding savvy play. Sure, add a relatively short transitory "switch sickness," or the sharing of Cooldown timers to prevent extreme abuse of this feature, but this would certainly help the homogenization of specs (oh, you're an arcane mage, here's your short list of ability priorities and cooldowns, you're nigh-upon exactly the same as all the others). This'd be quite a drastic change and people would either love or hate it, but it'd certainly help the overwhelming spec monotony that can arise.

Yes, I'd very much like some constructive criticism
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100 Human Paladin
15740
My 2 cents.

I think, for PvP prouposes , that MORE skills need to be designed like Polymorph or Repentance. The same skill has different effects on PvP and PvE. That includes damage, effect and time. So, for instance, you don need to NERF frost mage on PvE, you can make Ice Lance inflict less damage on players and more damage on npcs, deep freeze will do more damage on npc than players, and the list goes on on every class and spec.

This way we can, for instance, play Frost Mages on PvE and PvP without PvE being extremelly nerfed and PvP being overpowered.


It's one thing to do that to CC, but if you are having to do that to damage skills, too, wouldn't it be easier to just tone done how quickly classes can burst? And isn't that exactly what they tried to do in Cataclysm?

I think certain classes are the problem rather than the PvP model in the first place, and I think GC subtlety hints at that in his post.
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90 Worgen Warrior
16000
I'm not sure what to do with the 3rd spec in the case of pure dps classes like mages and warlocks, but in the case of others why not make 1 dps support spec and another spec a more self centered dps spec with higher damage but no support abilities. This way those that like to help their allys but not through whack-a-mole can, and those who just want to pop off big numbers can as well. Keep all the raid buffs in that support spec to keep their "effective dps" on par.
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85 Undead Hunter
1200
02/08/2012 06:39 PMPosted by Sabatieni
But I swear, if there are STILL pure DPS classes after expanding 4th specs, I'm going to mail angry beavers to your interns. :P


They should make specs dedicated to CC and Buffs or something.
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85 Blood Elf Priest
0
If any other high up manager/designer/ceo/whatever you want to be called today would come out and say "I don't know where we are going... but who cares.. let's go with it" would be fired instantly.

How is that acceptable? That's why WoW is failing, and that's why classes will never be balanced.. because you don't know what direction you are going in....

My mind is blown away by this....

Also want to point out that "model 4" is what we have today.. people play whatever elitist jerks and wowpopular tells them to play.. end of story really...

And ghostcrawler... were you not around in vanilla? Frost mages were PVE... get it straight buddy.
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100 Night Elf Priest
16580
02/08/2012 06:40 PMPosted by Xetene
I'd prefer if there was even more buff homogenization. As a raid leader, it sucks to have to bring X person for replenishment, as it is arguably the most mandatory buff.


I'm pretty sure that replenishment is dying a horrible, horrible death in MoP. I know I said the same thing in the run-up to Cataclysm, but I really mean it this time.



I don't care if the buff dies, but if they make mana regeneration any worse than starting Cataclysm...
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85 Goblin Priest
7770
While I love world of warcraft, I say scrap it. Make another MMO like this one with all new characters and associated abilities. no goblins, dwarfs, gnomes and what not. you would be unrestrained, unlike this old dinosaur you guys keep trying to salvage.

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11 Human Warlock
80
Number four all the way

Trying to balance all specs does not work in pvp.

Working on one spec per class for pvp might make pvp fun again
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Firstly, thanks again for the informative post, GC.

Myself, I favor a mix of models one and two. I believe every spec should be viable for all things -- raiding, leveling, PvP. But I'm also okay with some specs excelling in certain areas and not in others.

For example, combat is currently a less than ideal spec for fights with a lot of target switching, but I'm okay with that. What I lack in those encounters I make up for in fights where I can stay on a single target. (I do think the penalty for target switching is a little too high right now, but I don't mind the idea in principle.) Having different specialties give specs more personality.

But we should still be viable, even on fights where our spec is not ideal. People like me who don't like spec switching that much can keep our current spec and accept less than perfect DPS on some fights, whereas more hardcore players and those who enjoy swapping around can pick their spec based on the ideal for the fight.

As for model five, I'm coming around to the idea that every class should be able to fulfill two roles, but those roles don't necessarily have to include tank and healer. Just a choice between melee and ranged, or magical and physical damage, would be enough in some cases. I'd like to see classes given more options as to what roles they fulfill, but I also like being a pure DPS class, and some people should still have that option. So maybe shamans should be allowed to tank, but rogues tanking or hunters healing just wouldn't be right. It needs to fit with the class.

I don't really know how you could implement this. It would undoubtedly be a massive challenge, and I won't be shocked or disappointed if it never happens. But since I'm here, I might as well throw in my hopeless plea for a ranged rogue spec. I want to assassinate people with a bow, please.
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85 Goblin Priest
7770
02/08/2012 06:50 PMPosted by Notalok
Working on one spec per class for pvp might make pvp fun again
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85 Dwarf Hunter
7830
My comments are mostly about hunters but could apply to other pure classes.

All the options are iffy to me, but I would like it if for Hunters there was a bigger difference in playstyle for each spec. Right now there really isn't one, it's just slightly different rotations, it doesn't feel any different. Survival has lock and load, MM has their free aimed shot, BM has the boosted kill command, as an example. It's all the same feeling really. Explosive shot = Kill command = Chimera Shot with the filler shot in between, etc.

It would be nice if BM *really* focused on the pets and making the pet deal the overall majority of the damage, but not just automatically. Instead of shots it could be a series of commands and praises you need to cast in the proper rotation. So if the hunter is CC'd its not like their pet will be doing damage high amounts of damage because the hunter can't command them to do anything. Any defensive abilities would be tied to the pet as well so you sacrifice the pets damage to protect you.

Survival could go even deeper into the whole traps and venoms thing, maybe needing to coat their arrows in certain toxins then finishing that with a special shot to combine the toxins already injected into the enemy and proc something. Different combination of toxins/venoms = different result from this finisher shot. Plus extremely potent traps.

Marks could stay as just ultra high ranged damage, maybe even remove the pet completely from Marks hunters and give the lost 15% of DPS back to the hunter.

I don't think you need to make us tanks and healers, just something new. My suggestions will send some hunters running for the hills, but personally I am receptive to change...especially for a going on 8 year old game that may need some reinvigoration.
Edited by Bendok on 2/8/2012 6:56 PM PST
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70 Gnome Death Knight
1010
Why not a modified version of Model 5? What I mean is, why not give everyone a fourth spec to choose from instead of three? Druids basically have four anyway (balance, resto, cat and bear) so why not make two distinct trees? It's pretty tiring to read abilities that say "Does X this in X form but does X this in X form if there is X available and while X is Xing X at the X."

Think of the unusual possibilities, and they wouldn't have to extend TOO much beyond what types of mechanics are already available and used.

Warlocks could have a tank spec that utilizes pets and drains and self-healing. Or warlocks could be shadowy-type healers that steal life from enemies and give it to allies (more emphasis on healing, think old shadow-priest style).

Mages could cauterize injuries and become fire-style healers, maybe with an emphasis on DoTs.

Shamans could finally get that tank spec we've been hankering for.

Hunters could get a tank spec based around their pet, give them abilities that perhaps control the pet a bit more directly (though this may not be a fun playstyle). Maybe melee hunter?

Priests could get a DPS spec (they already have two heal specs) that's more focused on holy spells than shadow.

Rogues could get a tank spec.. or maybe a ranged spec focused on poisons. Stealthed range might be a bit wonky.

DKs could get a DW tank spec. =)

Warriors.. I do not play warrior but you could think of something I'm sure.

Maybe a ranged paladin spec?

You get the idea. Something to consider, I think. Especially since druids have already moved into the direction of four specs.
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90 Human Mage
13505
Number four all the way

Trying to balance all specs does not work in pvp.

Working on one spec per class for pvp might make pvp fun again



Sure but let the *fourth* spec for PVP but let it compose of everything that the class can compose.


For example Mages use all 3 schools of magic Arcane Fire and Frost. Warriors can use both two handers and a sword and a shield... and healing depending on the role you go as. Etc etc etc.
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100 Human Mage
20175
Model 1 seems best suited for the WoW player base. Let everyone play what they want and just balance as we go.

Use Model 5 for Titan :D
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85 Goblin Priest
7770
t would be nice if BM *really* focused on the pets and making the pet deal the overall majority of the damage, but not just automatically. Instead of shots it could be a series of commands and praises you need to cast in the proper rotation. So if the hunter is CC'd its not like their pet will be doing damage high amounts of damage because the hunter can't command them to do anything. Any defensive abilities would be tied to the pet as well so you sacrifice the pets damage to protect you.

Survival could go even deeper into the whole traps and venoms thing, maybe needing to coat their arrows in certain toxins then finishing that with a special shot to combine the toxins already injected into the enemy and proc something. Plus extremely potent traps.

Marks could stay as just ultra high ranged damage, maybe even remove the pet completely from Marks hunters and give the lost 15% of DPS back to the hunter.


I love all of this
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90 Human Mage
13505
Model 1 seems best suited for the WoW player base. Let everyone play what they want and just balance as we go.

Use Model 5 for Titan :D




Then the same result would be Vanilla WoW all over again. I intend to play Titan and I don't want that. We should be going forward not backwards.
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