Dev Watercooler – The Role of Role

85 Worgen Druid
3210
Great Article! I also love how you address every model for the sake of it even though it would never make sense to do that model. Tanking clothie... then the Mage would have no claim to fame!

My one and only point here... What made you who you are? Which model made you Great? Was it all off them at different times leading you to greatness? I do not feel the later to be true, at least not for Wrath and Cataclysm. I liked and dislike some of the changes from the last two expansions, but I don't think any of it added to the greatness of the game and franchise.

So I look at the models from the first two and I kinda like the model where each role had a function. Vanilla and partial BC the hybrids had Tank, DPS, Healing trees and the pures had single target dps, AoE dps, and PVP, or at least one tree of each class "shined". I it were left up to me I think that makes the most sense. You have people that only PVP and some that only PVP. I see the reason for AoE some times and PVP for others so there is no confusion and that if you KNOW that each tree has a specific DIRECTION then you can the spend more of your efforts in developing those roles for there specific function.

No the last statement takes care of the pure classes, but your next question is what about the hybrids such as druids, palys, and warrior only to name a few. Well that is where you still get a taste of the Wrath and Cata way of doing things and you get to rely more heavily on the talent trees to make them PVP worthy.

I really hope someone from Blizzard see this. I am one of the people that do think about things like this and have talk to other players. We have all been around since Vanilla and or BC and feel the way I do. THAT IS NOT TO SAY that everyone does that played Vanilla, but in my community and past communities and servers since I have changed, we felt very strongly on this .
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90 Goblin Shaman
10345
I would think a combination of Model 1 and Model 3 except that Model 3 would apply to talents, no specs. With Mist of Pandaria, spec no longer dictates which talents you have access to. With Model 1, it would also removes the problem that nobody wants to be the useless / under powered spec of the expansion / patch.

Another think that would make this combination work would be that every spec should feel different, specially for pure classes. Let's take Warlock for example. All 3 specs feel different. You might enjoy being a Warlock, but you might not be fond of tracking 15 DoT timers of Affliction or the 20 secs Soulfire cast time of Destruction (yes, exaggerated but you get the point). I remember a post where it was explained Demonology Warlock would get a secondary resource called Demonic Fury and Destruction would get Burning Ember. This would reinforce the feeling that there are many way to be a Warlock. Similar system for all pure dps classes would help make them all feel unique. Yes, it does become a problem that all specs needs a secondary resource (third in some case) or other mechanic to make it feel different from all others. So of it is already implemented, but I think putting more emphasis on it would really bring the uniqueness of every spec.

With Model 1 combined with Model 3, it covers the "We need knockback, stun, crowd control or other utility of this PvE / PvP encounter". Our 10man group had a lot of trouble with Ragnaros because we lacked the utility required (no slow fall for traps, no knockback, lack of stun). Having those utilities unbound from a specific spec allows freedom for each player to perform the role they want. No longer would players have to switch spec because we need an AoE slow or a stun exclusive to a single spec.

I think Model 3 would also help alleviating the Model 4 issue. Mist of Pandaria style talents allow players to pick the PvP talents needed regardless of your current spec. All specs available to the player would be viable in PvP and PvE. This assumes that every spec get the same toolbox of control control and defensive cooldowns. It prevent all Rogues to be Subtlety or all Mages to be Frost while still maintaining a choice on what kind of offensive or defensive cooldown you would like. It also makes PvP less predictable by giving a variety of options.
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90 Night Elf Druid
12190
What about choosing how you build your character? If you could choose any ability on your class which 22 would you pick?

What's wrong with simply being the priest class - you decide how to play it.
Edited by Sylver on 2/8/2012 8:28 PM PST
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85 Worgen Druid
3210
Great Article! I also love how you address every model for the sake of it even though it would never make sense to do that model. Tanking clothie... then the Mage would have no claim to fame!

My one and only point here... What made you who you are? Which model made you Great? Was it all off them at different times leading you to greatness? I do not feel the later to be true, at least not for Wrath and Cataclysm. I liked and dislike some of the changes from the last two expansions, but I don't think any of it added to the greatness of the game and franchise.

So I look at the models from the first two and I kinda like the model where each role had a function. Vanilla and partial BC the hybrids had Tank, DPS, Healing trees and the pures had single target dps, AoE dps, and PVP, or at least one tree of each class "shined". fI it were left up to me I think that makes the most sense. You have people that only PVE and some that only PVP. I see the reason for AoE some times and Single Target for others so there is no confusion and that if you KNOW that each tree has a specific DIRECTION then you can the spend more of your efforts in developing those roles for there specific function.

Now the last statement takes care of the pure classes, but your next question is what about the hybrids such as druids, palys, and warrior only to name a few. Well that is where you still get a taste of the Wrath and Cata way of doing things and you get to rely more heavily on the talent trees to make them PVP worthy.

I really hope someone from Blizzard see this. I am one of the people that do think about things like this and have talk to other players. We have all been around since Vanilla and or BC and feel the way I do. THAT IS NOT TO SAY that everyone does that played Vanilla, but in my community and past communities and servers since I have changed, we felt very strongly on this.
Edited by Calatin on 2/8/2012 8:31 PM PST
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85 Goblin Rogue
10180
I vote for model 5. I feel like some refreshing new changes is just what this game needs right now to keep old players interested.
Edited by Stár on 2/8/2012 8:34 PM PST
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90 Night Elf Druid
12190
With my suggestion you could play any style of role you like, even new ones because you're given the entire set of spells for your class - you aren't limited by specs just the spells you choose.

Edit: Want to play a fury warrior that tanks? Go right ahead - because with my suggestion the devs could add abilities that could make this possible.


The thing is Would it be proper to even classify people by spec anymore? Essentially you could go fury or arms or tank spec mid fight by swapping stances. Unless i read the suggestion incorrectly? If so I apologize


With my suggestion there are no more "specs" just your class and the abilities you decide to use, as an example lets say you only had access to 25 skills from a pool of all of your classes skills - which would you choose? How would you stylize your character?

There's no more specs, just classes. A player customizes their character with their classes' skills. Thus the player creates a spec, yet the developers will only have to balance around the fact that you are a single class with potential access of up to 25 skills.

By limiting how many skills a player has access to the developers can add more skills and also solve the issue with action bar spam (too many skills on the action bar).
Edited by Sylver on 2/8/2012 8:34 PM PST
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90 Dwarf Warlock
12560
02/08/2012 07:53 PMPosted by Únhõlÿçòw
Something that i think the Dev's were absolutely GENIUS in creating was the Aura system for Pally's and even more importantly, the Presence system for DK's; and unfortunately i dont think it gets the credit it deserves.


In regards to this and all the rest of your post, actually that would be good and all that, though the way Paladin's work they have basically 2 types of Protective stances/presences/auras (Defensive and Resistance). So what would happen in this case by your idea (aside from you know... paladins actually having to choose the aura for their role instead of 3 paladins all running the same aura and being too dense to swap to a new one to get the benefits)? Would retribution be locked into using Ret aura? Would prot wind up with a combined version of Def and Res aura? Would holy be forced to use Conc aura? What would be the point in this same scenario, in wanting to even bring a second or third ret paladin if they were going to be restricted to the aura they could use to support their role (since the aura doesn't stack by the number of de-de-de's that decide to use the same exact aura as the next paladin)?

In short, the way the paladin auras work and interact in a raid environment (since they are a raid wide buff rather than a stance/presence like for Warriors/Death Knights respectively) and it would kind of hinder paladins from being invited to pugs simply because they aren't using the aura they were looking for. The auras would have to be reworked greatly to be relevant only to the player using the aura rather than the party getting a benefit from the paladin using it in order for them to follow your same idea path.

Similarly, what would you in turn say for hunters and their aspects (as some do effect the raid/party much like auras like Aspect of the Pack). Would one aspect become the Beast Master type aspect? And in regards to rogues and all the other pure dps classes, would they be getting an aura or buff that is meant to solely help them perform in the spec play style of their choice (like instead of warlocks loosing Demon Armor in MoP, demonology would keep it as a pet demon damage increase buff while Fel Armor would remain the main choice for Affliction and a third brand new one be added for use by destruction warlocks)? And how would you differentiate a buff for healing priests to make it so that one would buff up the holy play style over the discipline play style?
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90 Human Warrior
12140
Me personally, I can never out dps anyone in current raids or heroics.. because I like to play as a support unit, or as you call it 'utility'. I may be suffering some harsh words from others about my not super high dps, but I tell them why theirs is high- cause of me.
I guess this goes under model 3... I would love a new support class, that would be cool imo.


This is what I am talking about. The DPS role is so stringent now, that no matter what class/soec build you are, if you are a DPS roll you MUST post big numbers or be stigmatized.

What's even sadder is they don't say "a Marksman Hunters should do XXX amount of damage per second and Elemental Shamans should do XXX amount. They just say DPS should do XXX amount.

There is no distinction anymore. There is no utility. There is no uniqueness. Everyone is the same. The ones who suffer the most are the pure DPS classes because that's all they can do.

------------------------------------

This just kind of jumped into my head... but what if they added a 4th role? Right now there is DPS, healer, and tank. How about in a 5 man you have 1 tank, 1 healer, 2 dps, and 1 utility? The utility's job is to stun, CC, emergency heal, protect, buff, hot buttons, kite, etc.

For raids you'd need 2 utilities for 10 mans and 3 or 4 of them for 25 mans. Just an idea since we can't go back to what I loved.

Give the four DPS classes 1 spec that is for utility. Their dps wouldn't matter as much as their control of the situations that fight mechanics bring to the group. Their role is to support the group!

My paladin in Vanilla basically functioned like this and I loved it a great deal.
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100 Draenei Paladin
9475

Let me pose an example to further my idea. I will use the tried and true mage as an example: (keep the DK presence system in mind)

Mage:

Arcane envelopment: (arcane presence)

Increases arcane spell damage by X%
Decreases Fire spell damage by Z%
Decreases Frost spell damage by Z%
Mastery: Increases critical damage by Y% for the amount of mana unspent

Envelopment of flame: (Fire Presence)

Increases Fire spell damage by X%
Decreases Arcane spell Damage by Z%
Decreases Frost Spell Damage by Z%
Mastery: Increases DoT Damage by Y% for each point of mastery

Glacial Envelopment: (Frost Presence)

Increases Frost Spell Damage by X%
Decreases Arcane Spell Damage by Z%
Decreases Fire Spell Damage by Z%
Increases potency of Slow Duration by Y% for each point of mastery

...

I Even thing this type of system could apply to a healer/tank class too such as Druid for example.

Druid:

Channeling of the Moonkin: (Balance/Healing Presence)

Take the form of the Moonkin
Arcane and Nature damage increased by X%
Decrease of Melee Attack power by Z%
Mastery: Increases the critical chance/Healing potency of nature/arcane spells by Y% for each point of mastery


Channeling of the Feral Cat (Feral Presence)

Take the form of the Feral Cat
Increase Melee Attack power by X%
Decrease Nature/Arcane Damage by Z%
Decrease healing potency by Z%
Mastery: Increases Dot Damage by Y% for each point of mastery

Channeling of the Great Bear (Tank Presence)

Take the form of the Great Bear
Increases Rage and threat generation by X%
Decreases healing ability by Z%
Decreases nature/Arcane damage by z%
Mastery: Increases defense by Y% for each point of mastery


Ghostcrawler,

THIS right here. Simple (from a non-programming standpoint anyway), straight-forward, and adds value to classes for both PvE and PvP. I'm no PvPer by any means, but the few arenas I've done, I've always wished I could jump to a healing spec on-the-fly, because my partner was getting pounded. And my small guild might actually finish raid content during that tier if our team was better able to adapt to changes in situation during a fight (healer go down? have the shadow priest jump to healing aura and help... what a great notion!)

Again, THIS.
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100 Gnome Warlock
13895
Just stick with what you've been doing. Don't screw with our specs too much. I say this because it still, to this day, ticks me off what you did to my DK. I really enjoyed playing Blood DPS but then you went "Oh hay! Let's throw the original DK design out the window and make Blood a tanking spec."

I still play my DK sometimes but I do not enjoy Frost or Unholy as much as I liked Blood, and I have no desire to tank with my DK. Honestly, when you guys pull such a complete rework from thin air it feels like a bait and switch and it makes me, and likely many others, feel like we've wasted our time on a character that no longer has a play style we enjoy.


Thank you for this. I miss my Frost Tanking. Blizzard shouldn't have "gone with the flow" just because Tanking was all about stam stacking and Blood had the most stam. They should have put those talents into Frost and nerfed that aspect of Blood.

Anywho, I really think, in hindsight, Model 5 mixed with Model 4 would have been best. Everyone's a hybrid, and we have a Tank/Healer Spec, a PvE DPS spec, and a PVP spec.

But as of right now, I'm enjoying the push toward Model 1. People pick the spec with the playstyle/design they enjoy most and go with that. I almost laughed out loud at this:

we’d lose a little bit of the fun of experimentation and theorycrafting

we’d lose a little bit of the fun of . . . theorycrafting

the fun of . . . theorycrafting

fun . . . theorycrafting


In the same sentence. It baffled me. It's like the fun of 'creating social law', setting the standard for all others of a specific class to follow and obey on penalty of being mocked & ostracized. Theorycrafting and spec imbalance only makes this game and its community worse. Call me a special snowflake all you want, but I'd much rather be good at what I like doing than be great at what I hate doing.

So I like Model 1, as long as the specs still look different and FEEL different. The less gap between other DPS specs, the less crap I'll get for changing things up and playing something different in a video game.
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90 Dwarf Warlock
12560
Ghostcrawler,

THIS right here. Simple (from a non-programming standpoint anyway), straight-forward, and adds value to classes for both PvE and PvP. I'm no PvPer by any means, but the few arenas I've done, I've always wished I could jump to a healing spec on-the-fly, because my partner was getting pounded. And my small guild might actually finish raid content during that tier if our team was better able to adapt to changes in situation during a fight (healer go down? have the shadow priest jump to healing aura and help... what a great notion!)

Again, THIS.
I don't think it should be something that you should be allowed to do mid fight without penalties (in the case of shadow priests going holy/disc mid fight) have a 15-25% reduction to their healing abilities for swapping out of the stance they started the fight in. In the instance of a DPS trying to hop in and take on a tanks role (aside from the obvious gearing problem and not being able to swap to their tank set in the middle of combat) 10-15% reduced health pool or armor reduction for swapping into it mid fight (probably not as drastic as the gear will already be a poor choice in this instance, but you get the idea). Tank or heals swapping to a DPS stance, give them a reduced damage output debuff for trying to swap mid fight. Of course if you swap back into the role you started the fight in, all said debuffs would be removed.
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85 Undead Warrior
5560

Let me pose an example to further my idea. I will use the tried and true mage as an example: (keep the DK presence system in mind)

Mage:

Arcane envelopment: (arcane presence)

Increases arcane spell damage by X%
Decreases Fire spell damage by Z%
Decreases Frost spell damage by Z%
Mastery: Increases critical damage by Y% for the amount of mana unspent

Envelopment of flame: (Fire Presence)

Increases Fire spell damage by X%
Decreases Arcane spell Damage by Z%
Decreases Frost Spell Damage by Z%
Mastery: Increases DoT Damage by Y% for each point of mastery

Glacial Envelopment: (Frost Presence)

Increases Frost Spell Damage by X%
Decreases Arcane Spell Damage by Z%
Decreases Fire Spell Damage by Z%
Increases potency of Slow Duration by Y% for each point of mastery

...

I Even thing this type of system could apply to a healer/tank class too such as Druid for example.

Druid:

Channeling of the Moonkin: (Balance/Healing Presence)

Take the form of the Moonkin
Arcane and Nature damage increased by X%
Decrease of Melee Attack power by Z%
Mastery: Increases the critical chance/Healing potency of nature/arcane spells by Y% for each point of mastery


Channeling of the Feral Cat (Feral Presence)

Take the form of the Feral Cat
Increase Melee Attack power by X%
Decrease Nature/Arcane Damage by Z%
Decrease healing potency by Z%
Mastery: Increases Dot Damage by Y% for each point of mastery

Channeling of the Great Bear (Tank Presence)

Take the form of the Great Bear
Increases Rage and threat generation by X%
Decreases healing ability by Z%
Decreases nature/Arcane damage by z%
Mastery: Increases defense by Y% for each point of mastery


Ghostcrawler,

THIS right here. Simple (from a non-programming standpoint anyway), straight-forward, and adds value to classes for both PvE and PvP. I'm no PvPer by any means, but the few arenas I've done, I've always wished I could jump to a healing spec on-the-fly, because my partner was getting pounded. And my small guild might actually finish raid content during that tier if our team was better able to adapt to changes in situation during a fight (healer go down? have the shadow priest jump to healing aura and help... what a great notion!)

Again, THIS.

Yeah, this seems to be a somewhat popular idea right here. I said back in page 3 about abolishing specs in favor of "stances," and another sensible fellow posted this similar bit.
All-in-all, it'd add greater value to combat in that you'd do much better knowing your class's entire toolbox and the appropriate situations to switch gears in, thereby rewarding competent, versatile play.
Edited by Desudesudesu on 2/8/2012 8:49 PM PST
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90 Night Elf Druid
12190

Let me pose an example to further my idea. I will use the tried and true mage as an example: (keep the DK presence system in mind)

Mage:

Arcane envelopment: (arcane presence)

Increases arcane spell damage by X%
Decreases Fire spell damage by Z%
Decreases Frost spell damage by Z%
Mastery: Increases critical damage by Y% for the amount of mana unspent

Envelopment of flame: (Fire Presence)

Increases Fire spell damage by X%
Decreases Arcane spell Damage by Z%
Decreases Frost Spell Damage by Z%
Mastery: Increases DoT Damage by Y% for each point of mastery

Glacial Envelopment: (Frost Presence)

Increases Frost Spell Damage by X%
Decreases Arcane Spell Damage by Z%
Decreases Fire Spell Damage by Z%
Increases potency of Slow Duration by Y% for each point of mastery

...

I Even thing this type of system could apply to a healer/tank class too such as Druid for example.

Druid:

Channeling of the Moonkin: (Balance/Healing Presence)

Take the form of the Moonkin
Arcane and Nature damage increased by X%
Decrease of Melee Attack power by Z%
Mastery: Increases the critical chance/Healing potency of nature/arcane spells by Y% for each point of mastery


Channeling of the Feral Cat (Feral Presence)

Take the form of the Feral Cat
Increase Melee Attack power by X%
Decrease Nature/Arcane Damage by Z%
Decrease healing potency by Z%
Mastery: Increases Dot Damage by Y% for each point of mastery

Channeling of the Great Bear (Tank Presence)

Take the form of the Great Bear
Increases Rage and threat generation by X%
Decreases healing ability by Z%
Decreases nature/Arcane damage by z%
Mastery: Increases defense by Y% for each point of mastery


Ghostcrawler,

THIS right here. Simple (from a non-programming standpoint anyway), straight-forward, and adds value to classes for both PvE and PvP. I'm no PvPer by any means, but the few arenas I've done, I've always wished I could jump to a healing spec on-the-fly, because my partner was getting pounded. And my small guild might actually finish raid content during that tier if our team was better able to adapt to changes in situation during a fight (healer go down? have the shadow priest jump to healing aura and help... what a great notion!)

Again, THIS.


This would be cool, if for whatever reason allowing players to customize their build is an impossible notion, at least allow us to decide what 'specs' we want to be on the fly (maybe with a cool-down or cast timer?). Changing specs like this would be pretty sweet.
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8 Tauren Druid
0
Actually I do prefer option 5.. where each class becomes a hybrid to a unique role, and unique role could even mean bringing some ultra buff that is unique to them only eg: the old shaman. Of course, that is hard to redo the design now. Like all shamans, I want to tank in my Enh spec, and my hunter buddy wants to let his pet to tank some real end game bosses.However, given the game audience and maturity now, I do think that most people will have multiple max level characters, where they could switch characters to do different roles if they really want, so it might become a non-issue after all.

However, then I guess the issue will be how to have more character slots, and let people with mulitple max level characters to get their other alt faster to gear/level as well. or create more contents for that level.

I am tired of running another character up the 70-80 range, or saving those forest animals in Hyjal again..

*scary thought after reading this blog.. does it mean the MoP is still in its infancy stage and we are going to have a long wait and DS is all we have for the next 10 months?... sad cow*
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