Not another No'kaled vs Legendary topic

85 Worgen Rogue
6195
Yeah, I know, we've seen plenty, but this is more of a question of dropping the mats for a landslide on a No'Kaled.

Currently, I have my first stage daggers. I do well with them, but I am really itching to get myself a normal No'Kaled. I've got a raid finder No'Kaled sitting in my bank.

Here's the problem. I'm on the fence about holding out for a normal No'Kaled drop from raid tonight. I'm not rich on this toon (my own fault, since I haven't been farming in a while). I'm also competing with an Enhancement Shammy in my guild for No'kaled. The shammy already has one, but needs a second for his OH. I'm hoping two drop, but I'm not going to hold my breath for it.

Here's what I'm thinking:

If LFR No'kaled will make a noticable enough difference in my dps over Fear, I'll drop the mats on it, bite the bullet and blow through the charts tonight. Which, if I'm able to do, will show just how much it will increase again when I get a Normal No'Kaled. Then, even if I don't get Normal No'kaled, I've got something better than Fear to last till next week's run.

If LFR No'Kaled will not make a big enough difference, I want to hold off on the mats. They cost a nice chunk of change.

What do we think, rogues?
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87 Dwarf Rogue
11995
I believe last time it was explained to me, It went like this:

LFR No'Kaled > Fear > Normal No'Kaled > Stage 2 dagger, with LFR No'Kaled being at the bottom and the technical "worst", but barely so. Normal No'Kaled is a definitive upgrade over Fear.


Apparently everything I know is wrong.
Edited by Nerkish on 2/10/2012 7:13 AM PST
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100 Human Rogue
11320
LFR NK is a definite upgrade over fear. Normal NK is better then the sleeper. I keep up with our legendary rogue with normal NK. Over 16 H Ultra attempts (don't get me started) last night he finished about 500 DPS above me and he has 1 ilvl on me. He is not a baddie either so its def not a skill curve. NK is overpowered in every iteration. Fear sucks. The proc really sucks off even the second set of daggers.
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85 Blood Elf Rogue
5005
LFR No'kaled > Fear I have both and always put out a nice chunk more DPS with my LFR No'kaled. Is it worth getting the landslide enchant when you could get normal on a run.... I would wait to see if you get it on the run then if you don't I would enchant.
Edited by Hamori on 2/10/2012 7:19 AM PST
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85 Blood Elf Rogue
4130
I believe last time it was explained to me, It went like this:

<s>LFR No'Kaled > Fear > Normal No'Kaled > Stage 2 dagger, with LFR No'Kaled being at the bottom and the technical "worst", but barely so. Normal No'Kaled is a definitive upgrade over Fear. </s>

Apparently everything I know is wrong.


incorrect

Fear < LFR Nok < sleeper < normal nok < legendary/heroic nok it hasn't been determined yet which is better for sure sadly
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100 Troll Rogue
11020
Unless you are on a heavy cleave fight like HC Yor'sahj, Blackhorn or even madness. Daggers are better on that scenario because you get way more Main Gauche procs, hence, more energy regen via Combat Potency.
Edited by Kromos on 2/10/2012 7:15 AM PST
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85 Worgen Rogue
6195
Well, I'll wait to get a bit more feedback. I don't want to be swayed by generalizations. Can you provide a number figure of differences in dps between Fear and LFR No'Kaled?
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100 Night Elf Rogue
11050
There's the rub, Twitçh. We're not talking a cataclysmic difference (ha!) between any single "level" of weaponry. Depending on your current stat weights and gear itemization, we're talking about somewhere in the general realm of 1% (of your total DPS) as the maximum difference between Fear and the LFR axe, and perhaps less than that between Sleeper and the normal-mode axe.

Is that a "noticeable" difference? Maybe. To me, 1% is easily within the realm of RNG, as well as human error, missing a key raid buff, forgetting to use your flask or eat your seafood, failing to use AR on cooldown... In other words, not worth wringing one's hands over too much. It's unlikely that picking Fear over the LFR axe is going to make or break your raid, so I think this is more about where your own priorities lie in terms of the extent to which you want to min/max your character.
Edited by Rfeann on 2/10/2012 8:02 AM PST
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85 Worgen Rogue
6195
If that's the case, and the dps difference won't be that noticable, Rfeann, I'll hold out for normal mode No'Kaled. Normal No'Kaled should make a big difference. That much I know.
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100 Night Elf Rogue
11050
Yeah, the difference between Fear and the regular axe is pretty huge -- more in the realm of 4%-5%, if I'm remembering right.
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100 Human Rogue
11320
02/10/2012 08:22 AMPosted by Twitçh
If that's the case, and the dps difference won't be that noticable, Rfeann, I'll hold out for normal mode No'Kaled. Normal No'Kaled should make a big difference. That much I know.


The difference between the normal axe and the P2 Daggers was def noticeable.
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100 Blood Elf Rogue
17110
Another way to put it into perspective, is that generally speaking, Fear is equivalent to a heroic Firelands mainhand for us. The LFR No'Kaled is basically the equivalent to a normal mode DS mainhand for us. The actual numerical difference is somewhere in the neighborhood of 400 dps. True that's not a huge difference, but it's still a difference.

Basically look at it this way, if neither No'Kaled nor the legendary questline daggers existed and you were given the choice of continuing to use Shatterskull Bonecrusher or upgrading to Morningstar of Heroic Will what would you do? Because that's about the space of your choice.

Likewise, the normal mode No'Kaled is roughly equivalent to Heroic DS mainhands, again floating around the same as the heroic morninstar and only about 200 (give or take) dps higher than The Sleeper.

edit: I didn't make the comparison between the shatterskull and the morningstar to illustrate what the "right" answer is, again the difference isn't that huge, I just did it to give a more relate-able comparison since comparing a dagger as combat to a weapon with no stats on it is a bit....unusual.
Edited by Pancakê on 2/10/2012 10:55 AM PST
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90 Blood Elf Rogue
6725
I recently made the switch from asassination to combat and I use the LFR version of NK and I love it. Just hope I can get a regular one before I get my stage 2's.

I wasn't able to directly test the axe vs. the dagger in a raid scenario since my reforges would have been different and I didn't have time to switch, but on the dummies I was able to pull about 1-3k more with the axe with all proper reforges.
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85 Worgen Rogue
6195
Eh, No'Kaled dropped but I was overbid on it by our enhancement shammy. XD

I may just quit being lazy and do enough farming this week to afford the mats for a Landslide.

If I'm not going to be using Fear, should I replace vengeance with something from Normal Mode DS as well? Blade of the Unmaker, perhaps? Though, I'd have to transmog out of the god-awful graphic.
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100 Night Elf Rogue
11050
02/13/2012 08:38 AMPosted by Twitçh
If I'm not going to be using Fear, should I replace vengeance with something from Normal Mode DS as well? Blade of the Unmaker, perhaps? Though, I'd have to transmog out of the god-awful graphic.


Noooooooooooo. :) Some mainhand weapons are competitive with Fear, but the offhand (Electrowing Dagger, which drops off reg and heroic Hagara) is not even close to being competitive with Vengeance. It's got worse stat itemization *and* lacks the stacking buff you get from Vengeance, even a buff that'd be gimped by using No'Kaled (or whatever) in the mainhand instead of Fear.
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85 Worgen Rogue
6195
02/13/2012 08:57 AMPosted by Rfeann
If I'm not going to be using Fear, should I replace vengeance with something from Normal Mode DS as well? Blade of the Unmaker, perhaps? Though, I'd have to transmog out of the god-awful graphic.


Noooooooooooo. :) Some mainhand weapons are competitive with Fear, but the offhand (Electrowing Dagger, which drops off reg and heroic Hagara) is not even close to being competitive with Vengeance. It's got worse stat itemization *and* lacks the stacking buff you get from Vengeance, even a buff that'd be gimped by using No'Kaled (or whatever) in the mainhand instead of Fear.


I was under the assumption that you only get the stacking buff of the legendary when you have both equipped. Is that correct? Though, it still seems that there aren't any better OH weapons than the Dreamer. Though, for some reason, I see some combat rogues running around with dual No'Kaleds. Is there really any reason to do that?
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100 Troll Rogue
11020
02/13/2012 09:06 AMPosted by Twitçh
Though, for some reason, I see some combat rogues running around with dual No'Kaleds. Is there really any reason to do that?

To look fancy?
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100 Night Elf Rogue
11050
02/13/2012 09:06 AMPosted by Twitçh
I was under the assumption that you only get the stacking buff of the legendary when you have both equipped. Is that correct? Though, it still seems that there aren't any better OH weapons than the Dreamer. Though, for some reason, I see some combat rogues running around with dual No'Kaleds. Is there really any reason to do that?


Ooops, yeah, sorry -- Monday morning brain fart. The stacking ag boost does indeed require the set. Even so, though, Vengeance (with its haste, mastery and expertise) is better itemized than reg-mode Electrowing (with just haste and mastery, albeit slightly more of each), to the tune of a few hundred DPS, usually. And there are no other off-hand weapons available in this tier -- except for the PvP shiv, which despite the amount of agility on it is horribly itemized for PvE use. (Mmmmm, crit and resilience, yuuuummy.)

If you see rogues running around with dual No'Kaleds, my only guess is that they've got some doors they urgently need to break down.
Edited by Rfeann on 2/13/2012 9:19 AM PST
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100 Blood Elf Rogue
17110
Yeah, while the mainhand ranking is covered all the time for offhands it's going to be something like this:

Tiriosh > The Dreamer >= Heroic Electrowing > Vengeance > Normal Electrowing > LFR Electrowing

Keeping in mind that The Dreamer and heroic Electrowing are EXTREMELY close, there might be gearsets where the heroic beats the dreamer, but every combination I've tried in shadowcraft has consistently put the dreamer about 50 dps ahead of it, not a great deal, but still consistently ahead.

Also Vengeance, The Dreamer and Tiriosh (not that it matters since it's tops no matter what) jump up significantly when they are paired with their respective mainhands due to the stacking bonus. So while The Dreamer and Heroic Electrowing are normally very close with most weapons, if your mainhand is The Sleeper then the gap gets much wider (close to 1000 dps difference). Also, if you're using Fear as your mainhand then Vengeance is in fact a better offhand than the Heroic Electrowing (very minorly, like 80 dps) despite normally being a few hundred dps behind it with other mainhands.
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90 Blood Elf Rogue
6980
Keep in mind that Fear is 397, LFR No'kal is 390
But The Sleeper is 406 while regular No'kal is 403.

Those few item levels that allow for more stats, therefore more damage are what make regular Nok so good.
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