Stam Stacking as a bear

85 Night Elf Druid
4760
Yup, I do it. To justify myself: My healers are 2 Hpallies and a Disc Priest. Lowers overhealing.

I just don't find a major reason to stack Agi. Dodge is fine for me, Mastery is fine as well. I have choices of trinkets (Double Stam/ Dodge and Agi/ Mastery) so I'm not limited to stats. With Zon'Ozz's beam of doom (Psychic Drain) you can't dodge that. Just HP and mitigation. With Focused Assault (even if you can cancel it) the few hits you take can't be dodged to my knowledge. Just a lot of Damage in DS coming in, and I feel more HP is helpful.

Can I get some opinions of this?

P.S. I am slowly moving back to Agi stacking. Slowly, but surely.
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90 Worgen Druid
12790
It's going to be harder and harder to justify stamina for those reasons as the Dragonsoul debuff stacks higher. But, those situations, now, are a reason to do so. I wouldn't say it's 100% necessary, as cooldowns and trinkets like MoBI can cover any major stamina loss.

The only mechanic that has predictable damage is Impale, and if you armory me you'll see that I had to throw on some Agi/stam gems in order to get to the threshold needed - with extra cushion - for the cooldowns I had available on every platform. Had I tanked this tier fully, I still don't think I would have stacked stamina.

It's not a bad thing to stack Stamina; healer mana regen has gotten to the point of non-issue. Experimenting, learning the mechanics, tweaking cooldowns... all of those things are important to finding the right style for your specific situation. If it's working for you, and you're able to handle the "I'm going to die moments" without dying and without healers having a heart-attack, then stick with it.

I personally don't like heavy stamina in this expansion and my healers and I are able to coordinate well enough that I've never needed too much cushion.
Edited by Reesi on 2/9/2012 8:21 PM PST
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100 Troll Druid
11800
(>^.^)>
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85 Night Elf Druid
4760
02/09/2012 08:19 PMPosted by Vida
(>^.^)>


Kirby?

Thanks for the response Reesi. Just working on slowly going into Agi to see where my healers are comfortable.
Edited by Fuzzybutt on 2/9/2012 8:25 PM PST
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90 Night Elf Druid
13785
The problem with questions like these is that they aren't the right question really. It never has been about Stamina being king or Agility being king or anything of the sort. The question is: how can I optimally gear myself for the sake of my raid, the boss fights, and most importantly, my healers?

The answer to that for Druids is actually quite a range of acceptable gearing strategies, and is largely dependent upon fights and what your priority is. Generally speaking people like myself and Reesi and many others gear heavily into Agility because there is a rather sharp diminishing return on Stamina past certain thresholds. You rarely hear people call it that, but that's essentially what it is. All Healing, notably your healing in particular, comes in discrete chunks. This is lessened somewhat by HoTs from Druids and such but nonetheless, it comes in discrete chunks. Damage likewise definitely comes in discrete chunks, meaning that Stamina and EH have break off points where you don't really gain much because the next discrete chunk of damage kills you regardless.

I'm not sure how long ago you played but a really easy example that people seem to remember better than more recent ones is Brutallus. You could only obtain so much EH to survive X hits post his Stomp, and anything beyond that point pretty much was wasted since if the extra hit landed without you getting healed, you died. A lot of damage in DS particularly comes in nice fat chunks like this, although some is broken down differently like Focused Assault. Aside from Heroic Madness Impales (25man particularly with its 1.2mil spike), Druids in roughly appropriate gear for the content they are Tanking pretty much acquire a suitable amount of EH for Healers to heal for all other fights without much consideration for Stamina. Generally speaking, if you're giving your Healers enough time to get you healed with the EH (Stamina, Armor, etc) you have, then you have enough and more isn't really going to help all that much unless they struggle to hit that window.

An easy ways to tell if you have too much EH is if on X encounter, you never seem to ever dip below a non-negligible amount of Health (ie 15k+ or so). If you never dip lower, than that extra padding of Health isn't doing you really any good. Reserves are nice and all but if you never tap them, it is technically wasted itemization. This includes having enough EH to take a whole additional hit and so forth. Yes it is nice to know that should your Healers all simultaneously get distracted with a cat in the toaster you can eat 15 hits from Morchok, realistically you just don't need that kind of cushion. Obviously if you DO sometimes dip then by all means, keep the extra EH.

Agility stacking has the advantage of boosting our mitigation (via Dodge and Mastery improvements) as well as greatly increasing our DPS. DS isn't exactly a low bar for DPS to pass, particularly if you aren't rocking any of the uber cool trinkets, set bonuses, or a few Dragonwraths, and dealing several thousand extra DPS just in pure Bear form Tanking isn't to be scoffed at. Add to that the ability to go Cat in many fights while simultaneously Tanking at times and you can really add a lot to the raid (and thus why Feral is being split in MoP, but I digress).



TLDR Version: If your Healers are comfortable with your damage intake and you aren't ever spiking and your raid is not in any real need of some extra DPS boosts (and you don't really care about spicing up some of the fights with some pro kitty action), Stamina stacking is OK. If however you want to play around with Agility, there is no danger in doing so provided you don't waltz up to Heroic Warmaster or Heroic Madness in all LFR Agi-gear and say "Imma deck you in the shnoz!!" and hope to do well.
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85 Tauren Druid
5435
02/09/2012 08:10 PMPosted by Fuzzybutt
I just don't find a major reason to stack Agi. Dodge is fine for me, Mastery is fine as well. I have choices of trinkets (Double Stam/ Dodge and Agi/ Mastery) so I'm not limited to stats.


You can say the same thing for Stamina too. I too do not find a major reason to stack Stamina. HP is fine for me, and I do have a choice of trinkets too.

With Zon'Ozz's beam of doom (Psychic Drain) you can't dodge that. Just HP and mitigation. With Focused Assault (even if you can cancel it) the few hits you take can't be dodged to my knowledge. Just a lot of Damage in DS coming in, and I feel more HP is helpful.


Zon'ozz beam of doom by itself isn't deadly, since at the max Focus Anger stack you should be blowing a CD for it anyway, it's the combination with a melee attack that is worrying - and that melee attack can be dodged. Relentless Assault (I assume that's what you mean, the one Hagara does) cannot be dodged but can be absorbed through Savage Defense.
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I just don't find a major reason to stack Agi. Dodge is fine for me, Mastery is fine as well. I have choices of trinkets (Double Stam/ Dodge and Agi/ Mastery) so I'm not limited to stats.


You can say the same thing for Stamina too. I too do not find a major reason to stack Stamina. HP is fine for me, and I do have a choice of trinkets too.

With Zon'Ozz's beam of doom (Psychic Drain) you can't dodge that. Just HP and mitigation. With Focused Assault (even if you can cancel it) the few hits you take can't be dodged to my knowledge. Just a lot of Damage in DS coming in, and I feel more HP is helpful.


Zon'ozz beam of doom by itself isn't deadly, since at the max Focus Anger stack you should be blowing a CD for it anyway, it's the combination with a melee attack that is worrying - and that melee attack can be dodged. Relentless Assault (I assume that's what you mean, the one Hagara does) cannot be dodged but can be absorbed through Savage Defense.
That melee attack can also be not dodged. Full agi gearing obviously isn't going to make you dodge that reliably. Stam stacking might just let you soak it reliably though, with a similar chance to dodge it as agility stacking.

Stam wins on relentless assault by a mile, you get the same SD bubble, with more HP to go with it.

As I've always said, in any situation where Agi helps you survive, stamina also helps you survive. There's no situation where stam does nothing, and agility can save you. There _are_ situations where agility does nothing, and stam can save you.
Edited by Tweenwolf on 2/10/2012 7:18 AM PST
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85 Night Elf Druid
4760
02/09/2012 10:01 PMPosted by Tangedyn
it's the combination with a melee attack that is worrying


This is actually all that has ever killed me on that fight.

Sounds like Stamina isn't really the right way to go. As Fasc said, if I'm not dipping into that extra stam, it's really wasted.

I'll start going into a bit more Agi and see how my healers can handle it. Thanks for the responses.
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90 Worgen Druid
12790
02/10/2012 07:16 AMPosted by Tweenwolf
There _are_ situations where agility does nothing, and stam can save you.

And cooldowns. ^_^
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85 Night Elf Druid
4760
02/10/2012 07:24 AMPosted by Reesi
And cooldowns. ^_^


What's a cooldown? Trololol.
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85 Night Elf Warrior
15680
There is only one true EH check this tier, and thats heroic impale. Nothing else has a stamina requirement beyond whats on the gear for pass/fail; only what your healers are comfortable with. If your healers can't keep you up through burst fight mechanics (Focused Assault, Psychic Drain + Melee, etc) with proper cooldown use, then obviously more EH is the answer. People looking for a black and white answer on this particular topic are always going to be disappointed.
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85 Night Elf Druid
4760
02/10/2012 07:35 AMPosted by Dellingr
People looking for a black and white answer on this particular topic are always going to be disappointed.


I've kind of come to my senses and really have begun to see that there is no true answer. It's all just about mechanics and your healers, and lots 'o RNG.

*mutter* I hate RNG....
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02/10/2012 07:24 AMPosted by Reesi
There _are_ situations where agility does nothing, and stam can save you.

And cooldowns. ^_^
Cooldowns are there whether you're stacking stam or agility.
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90 Worgen Druid
12790
02/10/2012 08:01 AMPosted by Tweenwolf

And cooldowns. ^_^
Cooldowns are there whether you're stacking stam or agility.

Precisely my point. ;)
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90 Night Elf Druid
17755
I've kind of come to my senses and really have begun to see that there is no true answer. It's all just about mechanics and your healers, and lots 'o RNG.


RNG can only ever make things easier, since you're always accounting for things to go horribly wrong anyway.
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85 Night Elf Druid
4760
02/10/2012 08:17 AMPosted by Slashlove
RNG can only ever make things easier, since you're always accounting for things to go horribly wrong anyway.


STOP PROVING ME WRONG! ARGRRRRRRRRRRR! :P
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90 Night Elf Druid
13785
02/10/2012 08:19 AMPosted by Fuzzybutt
RNG can only ever make things easier, since you're always accounting for things to go horribly wrong anyway.


STOP PROVING ME WRONG! ARGRRRRRRRRRRR! :P

^.^

It is sorta what we do, well not so much right/wrong, just prove.

02/10/2012 07:16 AMPosted by Tweenwolf
There _are_ situations where agility does nothing, and stam can save you.


That would simply be Heroic Impale if you're attempting to soak it without certain CDs or without the minimum required. Beyond that no, neither Stamina nor Agility save you in a worst case scenario. In average case scenarios, Agility does save you more (albeit very small and likely completely unnoticeable across multiple fights) just because things like subsequent melee hits being Dodged trumps having another X health.

Worst case is what we gear/plan for, beyond that you preferentially gear for things that aren't pass/fail according to the encounters you go up against and the Healers backing you up.
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100 Troll Warrior
19435
02/09/2012 08:10 PMPosted by Fuzzybutt
To justify myself: My healers are 2 Hpallies and a Disc Priest. Lowers overhealing.

If you sit down once in a while, you'll take more damage. That'll lower overhealing too.

Not that lowering overhealing actually means anything, since the only requirements for healing are "everyone is alive" and "I didn't run out of mana." If a healer has mana left at the end of the fight, and nobody died, it doesn't matter if they had 20 overhealing, or 20 million overhealing.
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02/10/2012 11:03 AMPosted by Fasc
There _are_ situations where agility does nothing, and stam can save you.


That would simply be Heroic Impale if you're attempting to soak it without certain CDs or without the minimum required. Beyond that no, neither Stamina nor Agility save you in a worst case scenario. In average case scenarios, Agility does save you more (albeit very small and likely completely unnoticeable across multiple fights) just because things like subsequent melee hits being Dodged trumps having another X health.

Worst case is what we gear/plan for, beyond that you preferentially gear for things that aren't pass/fail according to the encounters you go up against and the Healers backing you up.
No, that would be ANY situation where we're facing undodgable damage and our hitpoints are sufficiently low to put us in danger of death.

Yes if everyone in your raid is executing perfectly 100% of the time, this shouldn't happen ever. Let me know when you find a raid capable of that.
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90 Draenei Death Knight
11090
The reality is that if you look at how much damage you take from the hit, and then add a full melee hit to it, you're not going to be able to stack up enough stamina for stamina alone to be the reason you live the combination. You also won't be able to stack up enough agility for agility alone to be the reason you lived, either. Both of those don't work in that scenario.

For every single high tank-damage mechanic in Dragon Soul (minus Warmaster), it comes on a pretty predictable timer, meaning you should either use a cooldown yourself or get an external for it, and those cooldowns will still be active for the follow-up swing. Being predictable also means that your healers should be smart enough to go ahead and bomb you with a large heal right as that huge hit lands.
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